|
Post by Destecado on Oct 28, 2004 11:43:06 GMT -5
A discussion arose in the Suggestions for a "Clan" image/name/etc. thread about the nature of the eldar gods and if they truly had physical forms. Below is my own take on their existance. If we stop to consider the Physicallity of Eldar gods, we need to look at the one that is still present in eldar society, the avatars of Kaela Mensha Kaine? This seems to point to atleast some eldar gods having a physical form. Personally I feel that the physical forms that the eldar gods may have worn in the past might have been more for the sake of the eldar than for any neccesity that they had for them themselves. Being that the eldar are a psychic race, the beings that they view as their gods may have been nothing more than manifestations of the combine mental energies. As Slannesh embodies their hunger and desire for pleasure (and self destruction). The other eldar gods embody different aspects of the eldar psyche. Consentual belief may have brought the gods into existance...or at least given them the power to manifest. The gods embodied the best and worst of the eldar. This makes me beleive even more that they were psychic entities given form by the eldars' very own subconscious needs and desires. This may actually fit with your idea for the clan. If the gods of the eldar were psychic manifestations, then that energy could be changed or shaped into what ever form it required. Physicallity is an illusion. To borrow a line form Star Wars (which I really hate doing, but Yoda hit it on the head), "Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter." It may also point to a level of develpement within the eldar. At that given time, the eldar needed their gods. They needed something greater than themself to point to and follow...which might make what I said above a moot point. The Eldar gods may have been, as Sikkukkut pointed out (in the thread referenced above), the medium by which the Old Ones manipulated the eldar. The forms they took would have still probably been taken as archtypes of the eldar psyche, but this was a way for the Old Ones to mold and shape the eldar culture without leaving their fingerprints all over the process. It may have been a process to acclimate the eldar to the fact that other races existed in the galaxy. Looking at how the Eldar gods interact with each other and stories about Kaine having dealings with the Necrons (or at least the C'tan), it may be that the truth lies some where in the middle of the above to theories. It may be that the gods of the eldar are indeed physical or at least archtypical manifestations of the eldar psyche. Perhaps the Old Ones gave these psychic manifestations physical form. In return for helping the Old Ones shape and guide the eldar. These gods would have helped shape the eldar into the tool that the Old Ones required to help fight against the Necrontyr (Necrons). By not acting directly, but instead through these intermediaries, the Old Ones could shield the Eldar from the Necrons. If the Necrontyr knew about the Eldar in the beginning, they may have launched a premptive strike to destroy the Eldar before they could be a threat to them. The history glosses over the developement of the Eldar. They appear to jump from primitive tribes to a space faring race in the blink of an eye. There must have been some undisclosed amount of time in which this took place. It would be similar to the change of a catapilar into a butterfly. It must go through a crysalis or coccoon stage, in which it is vulnerable. I feel that the eldar must have had a similar stage in their developement where they were vulnerable to attack. The Eldar gods beng manifestations of the eldar did not always see eye to eye (as sometimes we have internal conflicts between our wants and desires and our conscience). Some of the gods (Kaine sought to control or dominion over the other gods. In order to accomplish this, it may be that Kaine made contact with the enemy of the Old Ones. I'm trying to find it, but I know I remember reading somewhere in the fluff that Kaine fought beside the C'tan as well as against them. It has always struck me as odd that the bodies of the Bloody Handed God's avatars have a great resemblence to the Necrodermis of the C'tan. The similarity goes right down to the Avatar reforming in the heart of the craftworld if the Avatar falls in battle. Could it be that Kaine traded his support or something else with the C'tan for the necrodermis? It may also help to explain how Kaine "survived" his fight with Slaanesh. Slaanesh would be expecting the Bloody Handed God to be of similar substance to the other eldar gods. After crushing him, it would be a simple matter to suck up his energy and devour him. But when the physical form of Kaine was shattered, rather than releasing its enegy it disapeared (in much the same way that the C'tan does) Of course unlike the C'tan it does not send out a large shock wave of energy when the Necrodermis is breached. I feel that this has to do with the fact that the makeup or energy of the fragements of Kaine are not like the original energy forms of the C'tans (thery were mostly composed of star matter). Another similarity to the C'tan is the need to absorb the soul of a living being in order to power up. Most of the time the Avatar is quiesent within the heart of a craft world. In times of battle, the eldar feed it the soul of the "Young King". Fued by this soul energy, it again becomes active. The eldar may be harboring their own destruction within the hearts of their craft worlds withou even realizing it.
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Oct 31, 2004 5:46:05 GMT -5
i'm the new guy here, so if i'm out of line someone please tell me, but i definately say i disagree with the idea of Eldar gods having physical forms. of course, i don't truck with the C'tan and the Necrons either, especially with the whole war in heaven thing, so i might be on the wrong side of that fight ...
either way, i would imagine that if you asked someone during pre-C'tan 3rd Ed they'd have said the Eldar gods were, as with all gods, representations of basic themes in their culture. the battle between the urge to create and destroy, the various aspects of nature and so on. the Eldar's records of their history prior to the fall is now largely remembered through story and dance, an oral/theatric tradition, which increases the importance of mythic figures in keeping their history alive.
as for why there is a physical manifestation of Khaine, here's what i've always thought: if you live in a big spaceship made of a psychoreactive material, which houses the souls of those who have died (and if you're the Eldar, you can bet most of these people are not going because of natural causes), are you surprised a physical representation of the desire for war is growing in the craftworld's belly? the Eldar can shape wraitbone unconsciously, i'd wager, and the Avatar is just that: a representation of the collective subconscious of the Eldar's desire for war.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 7:50:57 GMT -5
This seems to point to atleast some eldar gods having a physical form. As stated elsewhere, I disagree on this front. Kaela Mensha Khaine's avatar is a bit of a red herring, for me. Just because the result of the conflict between Slaanesh and Khorne over this entity resulted in what is on the 'outside' a physical entity does not necessarily mean that all eldar gods were, or could, be physical entities in their entirety. It would appear that simply working upon the word 'avatar' itself might reveal a part of the truth, more so especially when considered with the background of daemonic possession, etc. That is to say that the eldar gods, as with all warp entities, had the ability to invest "all" (ick) of a "part" (yay!) of their power into a mortal shell, changing it in the typical "As above, so below" way that the form of the 'shell' begins to mimic the essence of the entity. In the case of the Bloody Handed Avatar, the investiture of power was in the craftworlds - for some reson - themselves, and not an entity within the craftworld. Although this must be tempered against the fact that, depending on the edition that you're looking at, the avatars were either 'super-powered' battlesuits or actually an eldar that was once again shaped... I've always preferred the latter, myself, since it is more consistent with the 'balance of the 'fluff'' and I'm not overtly fond of the idea of the eldar being able to create matter out of nothing. (Hence my slightly heretical approach to wraithbone.) The other eldar gods embody different aspects of the eldar psyche. Nothing that is ground-shattering here... in many ways this is how all the 'warp entities' are described, at least those that acquire their 'energies' from mortal races. This makes me beleive even more that they were psychic entities given form by the eldars' very own subconscious needs and desires. Again, there is no problem here... Merely taking a historical approach to eldar 'myths' means that it is possible for the eldar to have been 'created' by their gods, and for gods to subsequently form in the warp. The adeptus mechanicus, for me, provides another example of this (i.e. the Machine God didn't exist until they created it out of their beliefs). This may actually fit with your idea for the clan. Not quite, since the concept of that Clan is more passive; an echo, rather than a shout. "Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter." Warp entities have been shown to be able to take physical form without the intervention of 'flesh', though this is incredibly draining and short-lived. It may be that the gods of the eldar are indeed physical or at least archtypical manifestations of the eldar psyche. I'd go for archetypes and once again "pooh-pah" (forgive me, Blackadder! ) the whole inherent physical nature of the gods. Leave them as warp entities and allow them to possess avatars... Eldanesh and Ulthanesh were the 'last of their line' who could reach beyond the manifold spaces and barriers into the formed formlessness ( ) and bring forth an aspect of their gods... Bloody mages. Perhaps the Old Ones gave these psychic manifestations physical form. Since 'gods' and 'warp entities' seem to form naturally, it is not required for the Old Ones to start creating gods. The eldar can do that by themselves. By not acting directly, but instead through these intermediaries, the Old Ones could shield the Eldar from the Necrons. Again, a 'historical approach' to the myths of the eldar. They can initially have been manipulations, but belief created the 'truth' in the warp. They appear to jump from primitive tribes to a space faring race in the blink of an eye. To be fair, it just mentions them travelling in the stars. There is no reason to necessarily suggest that they had the technology to do so. Then again you then have to look at the 'myths' and ask whether they really were 'swords' that were given to the Khaine (or rather his Avatar!). but I know I remember reading somewhere in the fluff that Kaine fought beside the C'tan as well as against them. I recall it as well... It has always struck me as odd that the bodies of the Bloody Handed God's avatars have a great resemblence to the Necrodermis of the C'tan. The typically simplistic GW answer would be that when Khaine 'destroyed' the Nightbringer, the 'shards of the necrodermis' penetrated Khaine's physical form and infected them. This, for me, is complete bunk but there we go. Could it be that Kaine traded his support or something else with the C'tan for the necrodermis? As posited elsewhere, this is one of the reasons that I see the eldar as being the bridge between the polar Old Ones with their pure psychic engineering, and that of the C'tan with their 'science'. I do not see a problem with eldar being influenced with some of the forms that are a part of their myths, in some form, and the remains that they would have found scattered around the galaxy... Again, though, we're getting into the conflicting imagery between sci-fantasy and the heroic fantasy which 40k is rapidly becoming in an attempt to gain some of the sweep and majesty of, say, the Silmarillion. But when the physical form of Kaine was shattered, rather than releasing its enegy it disapeared (in much the same way that the C'tan does) Again, though, it really isn't necessary to construct such elaborate theories, surely? Another similarity to the C'tan is the need to absorb the soul of a living being in order to power up. Or, of course, ritualism with a bit of shamanism thrown in... Blood is ever the currency of the gods! i'm the new guy here, so if i'm out of line someone please tell me, but i definately say i disagree with the idea of Eldar gods having physical forms. You don't have to worry about being out of 'line'. The simple fact that you say that means that, almost by default, you cannot be. And, obviously, I agree with this statement! of course, i don't truck with the C'tan and the Necrons either, especially with the whole war in heaven thing, so i might be on the wrong side of that fight ... I would say that it would have to be carefully analysed, thought about and potentially re-represented. the Eldar's records of their history prior to the fall is now largely remembered through story and dance, an oral/theatric tradition, which increases the importance of mythic figures in keeping their history alive. Incidentally, I disagree with this. The Harlequins maintain the 'mythic' cycles as a means of representing 'history' without shading it with personal interpretation inherent in the process of 'history'. They maintain the core of the story. I find it extremely doubtful that the eldar throw away historical records merely because they prefer to see history represented in a specific artform. and the Avatar is just that: a representation of the collective subconscious of the Eldar's desire for war. I'm going to work on the premise that it's not quite that simple. You can argue it either way, though. When the Avatar stirs, the seeds of war are sown... I would prefer to place conscious action at the feet of the Avatar (or any part of him), as hinted at in Rennie's (for me, awful but with redeeming features) Shadow Point: the Avatar is both fueled and awakens such 'blood lust'.
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Oct 31, 2004 8:53:02 GMT -5
re: history, i was going on this, from WD 127, which you were so kind as to link me to:
as for the Avatar feeding the desire for war, i agree, i was only addressing its origin. that kind of emotion is self replicating.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 19:21:29 GMT -5
Yep, I know the quote. It's one of those points that I tend to think of as 'overtly fantasy' with the assumption that "written records", epigraphy, etc., were the norm.
It ties in with the somewhat cliched 'degenerative' approach to the 40k universe, but does it actually make sense? That is something that I would say 'no' to.
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 1:00:44 GMT -5
true, it does fit in with the degenerative approach to 40k, and it bothered me as well. i mean, how hard is it to take a hard drive with you? i thought it might have been a conscious choice, to try to forget their own mistakes, and to leave all that information in the Black Library.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 7:23:58 GMT -5
Yet as shown in the modern 'fluff', the eldar would have had continued access to much of theirformer knowledge through the Webway. After all they can remotely access the Infinity Circuit of ships that are a huge (interstellar) distances away, it would seem logical that they could do this with the 'main processors' fo the homeworld. Of course, this assumes that the Infinity Circuit is a 'computer plus' rather than just a magical box here you put souls in... But again, this is a core part of my interpretation: the eldar straddle the gap between the technology of the C'tan (ick; just technology in general) and the 'psychic engineering' of the Old Ones... They are, in essence, technomancers.
I would imagine it spurious to imagine that they left all the knowledge of their history behind in the creation of their 'new order', but then again there are historical parallels for this in the real world. Again, though, I would imagine that they did take them... After all, why bother with the dances of the Harlequins if they didn't feel that on some level they were important. And, again, this leads to the differentiation between 'historical subjectivity' of texts, and the desire to keep the 'core story' in the Dances. That is to say they serve two completely different functions.
Of course, that's wildly OffT.
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Dec 10, 2004 20:05:43 GMT -5
Just because Information is on computers does not mean that data cannot be destroyed. When the exodus happened who says they had the time to download all of Elder history? These computers might contain all their knowledge, but think how large a file it would be to move. It could take years to get it all. Then what do they have; some half remembered memories off of some long dead ancestors.
Remember when the fall of cultures happens, the past always tends to get lost and forgotten. The Elder would have had much bigger problems to deal with at the time then making sure they had a comprehensive Encyclopaedia Elderia with them.
But would they? They would have no special ability to guild the Elder. They would be the last beings anyone chose to help develop the Elder Culture.
Taking the example of the human psyche more then the Elder themselves (since I am not that familiar with it), having these psychical manifestations walking around is perhaps not the best idea. They would hardly create mentally balanced beings; they would be more like obsessive compulsives. You only have to look at Khaine himself, the Embodiment of War, to see how this would work out. They are basically one giant walking neurosis which would end up turning their followers into mentally unbalanced individuals as they try to emulate them.
The Old Ones might have been desperate enough to try it to help in the struggle against the C’tan but I am sure they would be aware of the dangers. What they would prefure to do would be to create Khaine, give him form then send him off on a rampage without the Elder knowing. Or if they did want to help they would genetically manipulate the Elder until their minds formed more balanced gods that where able to guild the young race.
This leads us to a very interesting question; What effects would the Old Ones own beliefs have on the warp? Would they have Gods, which their own minds brought about? And what would these being be like? Perhaps some of their legendary power comes from this; perhaps they believed themselves to be gods and so they took on aspects of this.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Dec 11, 2004 0:12:39 GMT -5
When the exodus happened who says they had the time to download all of Elder history? Now consider their technology... Now consider that some of them had foreknowledge. Now consider that while not all of the 'up to date' knowledge might not have gone, it would still have been fairly significant. Is it the greater assumption that, unsurprisingly given that every civilisation in the 40k universe has had a fall (with one or two exceptions), that no information got out, or that you allow the possibility that some did? I always prefer flexibility... That and the idea that even though they fell, they didn't do it entirely on the flat of their face when you consider all of the other 'fluff' in total... The Elder would have had much bigger problems to deal with at the time then making sure they had a comprehensive Encyclopaedia Elderia with them. That is true. Again, though, you've got the problem that everyone is as tied up in the future as everyone else, except the ones that you want to get out... but they don't have the foresight to do anything but flee... Swings and roundabouts. I personally work on the principle that the eldar utilised the Webway for communications and their technology in the 'present' of the 40k universe is much less than that of the pre-Fall civilisation. I assume that they had the foresight to take as much as they could, but this would most likely have been 'public access' information and would not necessarily include current research. I also assume that they took something other than the design schematics for weapons... This leads us to a very interesting question; What effects would the Old Ones own beliefs have on the warp? Would they have Gods, which their own minds brought about? The simple assumption of the 40k 'fluff' is the same as the original simplistic assumptions about Chaos, at least in some regard (e.g. "Humanity created the Chaos Gods" in a very real sense). Thus the Old Ones did not have an impact upon the warp in terms of creating 'warp entities' either through emotion or conceptualisation. perhaps they believed themselves to be gods and so they took on aspects of this. Personally I work on the principle that they were transcended Old Slann with abilities that made them as much gods as the C'tan, which is to say not truly 'gods' but damned powerful and nigh on indestructible.
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Dec 11, 2004 9:58:29 GMT -5
I not saying nothing got out, just that very little of it will be detailed. When they were escaping they would have certainlly downloaded more of the practical stuff rather then philosophy and history. Everytime a civilisation has fallen here on Earth history is the first to go. All the books written are destroyed and those who had read them tend to forget most of what was in them. You end up with scraps. It becomes little more then myth with a few fact sandwiched inbetween. As I said, I don't think the Elder lost everything but a hell of a lot would have gone. Out Trillions of Volumes of inforamtion, perhaps only a few hundred thousand made it out. Its enoght to get the sence of things but just think of what was lost. I would agree with all but the last word. Indestructible. Massivily powerful; yes. They would have to be, to be able to use 'Warp magic'. However they were in a way still mortal. Perhaps not transcended, but 'evo'ved'. Transcended sort of implies that they Ascended to a higher plane, beyond everything. Evolved beyond the body to become part of the warp to me seems much more sensible. But thats just me.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Dec 11, 2004 10:02:01 GMT -5
Just a quick and silly comment, since I don't have anything else to contribute at the moment-
He did say nigh on indestructible, so it seems you both agree that they were not indestructible, but rather extremely powerful mortals.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Dec 11, 2004 10:57:33 GMT -5
Yep. Even the gods are not immortal, for me. They can be killed in one form, i.e. the one that matters to them, even though one cannot really kill the concept. A part of this, of course, arises out of the way that I represent psykers in the 40k universe. To make things easier I utilise two systems of magic. The first is the rather 'standard' GURPS Magic/Grimoire modified by "Unlimited Mana" (see Roleplaying for more information), and the second is the so-called (cliched! ) "Greater Path" represented by the Spheres of Magick from the ( GURPS) Mage the Ascension game. Things just fall into place in my mind when this is done, but just as the assumptions of the wargame should not define everything that is incorporated in the project, the assumptions of my interpretation through roleplaying should not automatically be incorporated! In terms of representation, however, it just seems to work whether you agree with the specific modelling, semantics or whatever. Anyway, time to go and do some more Christmas shopping.
|
|