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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 24, 2004 19:02:50 GMT -5
Just going through the write-up of Tir'asur and the system of Uuranor en'vesta, and I've come across the SR section "Religion" and it got me to thinking about a lovely 'ole concept of mine... Elsewhere it was referred to as "The Greatest Secret", a premise based around the idea that 'energy cannot be destroyed and is changed from one form to another' (thermodynamics, IIRC  ). As such the 'consumption' of the eldar gods by Slaanesh did not destroy the but, rather, changed them into Its most powerful servants: the Keeper of Secrets, the greater daemons of Slaanesh. The idea is ''fluff' transparent' in that it has no direct bearing upon the 'fluff' apart from giving the eldar some morbid interest in Slaanesh... Of course, some people might taken offence at the introduction of such a 'radical' (:  concept, hence I thought that I would bring it in as one of the "Clans" of Tir'asur. That way if people were to take offence I could offer the standard GW hand-waving approch whereby it is not only a 'colony world' (therefore removed from the 'standard 'fluff''), but also more than likely a 'fan' craftworld. Anyway, I'm stumped for a sufficiently intriguing 'icon' for the Clan, whose primary goal is - somehow! - to return the gods to the eldar. I would not want to think of them as 'priests', since for me any eldar can 'conjure' an image of the dead gods and may even, for a short while, be moved by the echo of that god... So, any thoughts? |
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Post by Destecado on Oct 25, 2004 17:22:27 GMT -5
Rather than being a static symbol, perhaps it is one that changes as it rotates. It would consist of several seperate peices within eachother that as each seperate part rotates combined with the others creates new forms and shapes. This would show the interrelationship that exists between everything and how each part is changed, the totality of being is change, while nothing is actually lost in the change.
Your idea of a religion might be thought to be radical by some, but I think I can do you one better. I posted it a long time ago on eldar online, only to be the victim of several flames and viscious ridicule. still I beleive the it might be interesting to have a radical group of eldar who beleive as I do.
For the most part I beleive that Ynnead and Slaanesh are not only related, but are different aspects of the same being. Much the same as Durga and Kali are just aspects of the same goddess, Slaanesh the great devourer is but an aspect of Ynnead.
Slaanesh has yet to finish her work and as such is unable to move on or go on to the next aspect as Ynnead. It is only when all eldar souls are joined together into the whole that is Slaanesh, that Ynnead will come and lead to a rebirth of the eldar.
If you wish to put a term to it, Slaanesh is embodies the combine id of the eldar. It is the base emotion and need that we are all born with. Freud believed that the id is based on our pleasure principle. In other words, the id wants whatever feels good at the time, with no consideration for the reality of the situation.
Eventually we grow and develope the Ego which meets the need of the id, while realizing that others have needs and desires. It moderates the id.
I know that this idea might be disliked, but I think it would make for an interesting sect or cult among the eldar.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 17:51:45 GMT -5
Rather than being a static symbol, perhaps it is one that changes as it rotates. It would consist of several seperate peices within eachother that as each seperate part rotates combined with the others creates new forms and shapes. That's basically how I see eldar language/runes working, so it would not be out of place. I posted it a long time ago on eldar online, only to be the victim of several flames and viscious ridicule. I'm not going to ridicule you for it, but I'm not going to adopt your ideas for this particular 'clan' either. Slaanesh the great devourer is but an aspect of Ynnead. This is an inverted extension (kinda, if that makes sense) of the "Greatest Secret" idea. It also draws something similar from my posted concepts on the 'soul' of the Solitaire, which admittedly I bastardised from the Wi'tch quadrilogy by... erm, someone. It is only when all eldar souls are joined together into the whole that is Slaanesh, that Ynnead will come and lead to a rebirth of the eldar. Right, I'm not going to take that as the 'true situation' but you were right, I actually do think it is interesting. I don't think it is "doing me one better", more so since personally I have other plans for Ynnaed (which are not exclusive of this idea), but that some group of eldar might believe this - a particularly radical group - is as you say interesting. I know that this idea might be disliked, but I think it would make for an interesting sect or cult among the eldar. Again, as the "true and real situation"? No. But as the beliefs of a group... yes. But not the Clan that I'm after at the moment. If you wish to make some suggestions for a separate Clan, then please do so... I would love to incorporate them with my own ideas. I like wacky ideas that fit with a wider interpretation of the 'fluff'. |
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Post by Dazo on Oct 26, 2004 5:15:03 GMT -5
I recall postulating a similar theory on EO, except that instead of the eldar gods becoming daemons it was the actuall eldar that had remained on their homeworlds that were moulded by slaanesh into the various daemons now under its control. Would this idea be as interesting as having the eldar gods becoming the hand of slaanesh.
would not somthing like the catapillar turning into the butterfly be the sort of image they would wish to portray.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 7:59:09 GMT -5
REPLY TO ASP ELDAR NEW CLAN THREAD I recall postulating a similar theory on EO, except that instead of the eldar gods becoming daemons it was the actuall eldar that had remained on their homeworlds that were moulded by slaanesh into the various daemons now under its control. Yes, I do seem to recall you mentioning something like that quite recently. (Relatively speaking.) Only problem with it is that if you believe the written word of the 'fluff' (Abnett, Farseer, p216) the eldar bodies were consumed along with their souls. Of course, now that I engage the 'ole noodle this doesn't mean that it is possible... but Slaanesh itself was 'quickened' by these souls. So while it is definitely possible, and indeed interesting, I'm going to for the moment stick with the two Clans thus far described (assuming that Destecado is going to write something up). Your idea seems like a radical fusion of 'my' Clan and that of 'Destecado'... That is if we are to try and integrate them. (And also not saying that it is not original!) Would this idea be as interesting as having the eldar gods becoming the hand of slaanesh. Keeping true to the canon, both the spirit and word, it would be surely more reasonable to have the most powerful of the eldar become daemon princes? Only problem there is that they were mostly consumed (consistent with what you would want to do) and would not have had time to serve... Then again, the 'fluff' also states (WD127) that there are still eldar walkng the homeworld(s)... would not somthing like the catapillar turning into the butterfly be the sort of image they would wish to portray. Hmmn... no. I think that Destecado's suggestion has merit. E.g. that ultimately the iconography (i.e. clan 'tattoos') is going to be linked to the original imagery of the eldar gods (that is, it is changeable) but that there should still be a common, linking symbol. That is more a weakness of my thinking than the concept of Clans themselves, i.e. I tend to want it to be a single feature with many interpretations (e.g. cultural interpretations of the Dragon, etc.) while still linking into the established imagery of the eldar... |
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Post by Sikkukkut on Oct 26, 2004 9:05:45 GMT -5
Isn't one of the traits attributed to the Keepers of Secrets that they can hear any utterance by any living being anywhere? The last-edition Codex Imperialis, as I recall.
That gives me this image of a ceremony or some kind of sacred duty: constantly singing or chanting or reciting some kind of plea, perhaps uniform or perhaps unique to each former god, or more likely constantly changing depending on the Eldar saying it, begging the Eldar god locked within the daemon to emerge and return to them.
It could sound like an exorcism, or like an appeal to the god's memories ("Blessed Isha, we know that in your heart you still remember the day you wept for us in the starlight, do not let this memory fade but come towards it and towards us"), other things or combinations of all of these, repeated like a rosary.
If you like this, it suggests in turn that the icon might be a rune for speaking, calling or remembering, or a stylised speaking mouth. Or we could make up an Eldar mythic reference to parallel and symbolise the act of calling a lost spirit home - Isha calling to Eldanesh? - and base the clan icon around some visual aspect of that myth.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 9:25:45 GMT -5
Isn't one of the traits attributed to the Keepers of Secrets that they can hear any utterance by any living being anywhere? I didn't know that, surprisingly enough. That gives me this image of a ceremony or some kind of sacred duty: constantly singing or chanting or reciting some kind of plea, perhaps uniform or perhaps unique to each former god, or more likely constantly changing depending on the Eldar saying it, begging the Eldar god locked within the daemon to emerge and return to them. I rather like this idea, although I doubt that it is purely what it is about. Definitely creates a rather interesting image, however. Think I might adopt that. ;D If you like this, it suggests in turn that the icon might be a rune for speaking, calling or remembering, or a stylised speaking mouth. Or we could make up an Eldar mythic reference to parallel and symbolise the act of calling a lost spirit home - Isha calling to Eldanesh? - and base the clan icon around some visual aspect of that myth. The Tears of Isha are the most obvious choice, but the Clan of the Tear? Ick. I'm not even going to go near the Clan of the Weeping Eye or something similar... |
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Post by Sikkukkut on Oct 26, 2004 9:47:42 GMT -5
I'm not even going to go near the Clan of the Weeping Eye or something similar... The Clan of the Bad Bout of Conjunctivitis? What I was meaning was more the creation of a bit of myth containing something usable as an icon, probably a plant or animal since that's what you seem to have been using so far. We don't need to throw in anything grand that distorts or redefines the basic mythic cycle, just add a little curlicue somewhere that gives us what we need. For example, try this: Something like that  |
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Post by Destecado on Oct 26, 2004 10:54:19 GMT -5
Yes, I do seem to recall you mentioning something like that quite recently. (Relatively speaking.) Only problem with it is that if you believe the written word of the 'fluff' (Abnett, Farseer, p216) the eldar bodies were consumed along with their souls. Of course, now that I engage the 'ole noodle this doesn't mean that it is possible... but Slaanesh itself was 'quickened' by these souls. So while it is definitely possible, and indeed interesting, I'm going to for the moment stick with the two Clans thus far described (assuming that Destecado is going to write something up). I do intend to write something for this splinter faction of eldar culture,,,Unfortunately, my reference resources to the myths of the eldar are not accessable at the moment. Sadly I became lazy and relied on the eldar encyclopedia on the 40k Cantina site. it had a great wealth of info, but currently the site is under reconstruction so it is not available to me. Unable to access that site, I tried to go on Eldar Online to find my original concept, but I am still having trouble accessing their site as well. Looks like I'm going to have to break out the the old codices...or look for a new information font on the web (you know how much I enjoy doing that). |
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 11:28:37 GMT -5
Something like that <grin> I really must have another look at eldar mythology... the main problem that I have with it is that people - and this seems to include GW - seem to take it as 'objective reality' because it is mentioned in the codices. I intensely dislike the idea of full-physical manifestation of the gods, feeling that it goes far too down the route of fantasy and if you want to do that then go and play WFB or WFRP... I do intend to write something for this splinter faction of eldar culture I've sent a file to you which might be of use in your 'quest'... I would also suggest that you don't necessarily think of them as a "splinter faction". I personally am getting horrendously tired of every single political variation being considered a 'splinter'... |
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Post by Sikkukkut on Oct 26, 2004 21:06:34 GMT -5
the main problem that I have with it is that people - and this seems to include GW - seem to take it as 'objective reality' because it is mentioned in the codices. I intensely dislike the idea of full-physical manifestation of the gods, feeling that it goes far too down the route of fantasy and if you want to do that then go and play WFB or WFRP... I'm not as hostile to fantasy tropes appearing in 40K as you are, but that's really a side observation since the Project is based on your version of the 40Kverse so it's your interpretation that decides this. I do think that for this purpose, though, the physical reality or otherwise of the Eldar gods is a moot point. It doesn't matter whether they were physical beings, or famous Eldar who later were remembered as gods, or Old Ones or what have you - what matters here is what contemporary Eldar believe they were because that's what determines their culture and behaviour. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 27, 2004 11:41:59 GMT -5
I'm not as hostile to fantasy tropes appearing in 40K as you are... Oh, I've got now problem with 'fantasy troops' appearing, but I do not want to move to an entirely fantasy version of the 40k universe, which is where 4E appears to be heading. but that's really a side observation since the Project is based on your version of the 40Kverse so it's your interpretation that decides this. Oh god, not you as well.  It is not my interpretation of the 40k universe, but rather one that is as true to the various editions as possible without simply taking the 'new is true' approach. It also aims to consider the 'reality' of the situation and not merely accept something because some bod in Nottingham, or wherever, decided that something was a 'cool idea' and didn't actually stop to think about how 'real' it was (within the context of a fictional universe, that is). Okay a bit harsh, but I've already got Phillip trying to tell me that it is 'my interpretation' of the 40k universe therefore it can be divergent. If it really was my interpretation do you really think that I would spend the time discussing things? The eldar are, admittedly, my interpretation but that is based on the fact that there is nothing out there on the eldar in the first place. What limited information there is... well, to say that it is poorly expressed is the least of it. I do think that for this purpose, though, the physical reality or otherwise of the Eldar gods is a moot point. In some regards, yes. Unfortunately it is very easy for people to become bogged down in the fact that the myths are real and objective interpretations of eldar history, despite the fact that they are referred to as myths. It doesn't matter whether they were physical beings, or famous Eldar who later were remembered as gods, or Old Ones or what have you... In terms of general discussion and consistency, however, it does matter. Oh, not to the eldar presence on Tir'asur or wherever, but generally. what matters here is what contemporary Eldar believe they were because that's what determines their culture and behaviour. That the eldar like their history to be represented in certain forms does not mean that it is the only way, though. |
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Post by Destecado on Oct 28, 2004 10:35:55 GMT -5
I do think that for this purpose, though, the physical reality or otherwise of the Eldar gods is a moot point. It doesn't matter whether they were physical beings, or famous Eldar who later were remembered as gods, or Old Ones or what have you - what matters here is what contemporary Eldar believe they were because that's what determines their culture and behaviour. Actually, If we stop to consider the Physicallity of Eldar gods, should we not first look at the one that is still present in eldar society, the avatars of Kaela Mensha Kaine? This seems to point to atleast some eldar gods having a physical form. Personally I feel that the physical forms that the eldar gods may have worn in the past might have been more for the sake of the eldar than for any neccesity that they had for them themselves. Being that the eldar are a psychic race, the beings that they view as their gods may have been nothing more than manifestations of the combine mental energies. As Slannesh embodies their hunger and desire for pleasure (and self destruction). The other eldar gods embody different aspects of the eldar psyche. Consentual belief may have brought the gods into existance...or at least given them the power to manifest. The gods embodied the best and worst of the eldar. This makes me beleive even more that they were psychic entities given form by the eldars' very own subconscious needs and desires. This may actually fit with your idea for the clan. If the gods of the eldar were psychic manifestations, then that energy could be changed or shaped into what ever form it required. Physicallity is an illusion. To borrow a line form Star Wars (which I really hate doing, but Yoda hit it on the head), "Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter." It may also point to a level of develpement within the eldar. At that given time, the eldar needed their gods. They needed something greater than themself to point to and follow...which might make what I said above a moot point. The Eldar gods may have been, as Sikkukkut pointed out, the manner in which the Old Ones manipulated the eldar. The forms they took would have still probably been taken as archtypes of the eldar psyche, but this was a way for the Old Ones to mold and shape the eldar culture without leaving their fingerprints all over the process. It may have been a process to acclimate the eldar to the fact that other races existed in the galaxy. Actually, given the manner in how the Eldar gods interact with each other and stories about Kain having dealings with the Necrons (or at least the C'tan), it may be that the truth lies some where in the middle of the above to theories. Sorry, I know this probably reads as if I am all over the board, but without hard data to go on it makes it difficult to come up with one concrete explanation. Although the above arguments appear contradictory, I have left them rather than editing the post, so that readers can follow the thought process that lead me to the conclusions I have made about the eldar gods.
We also seem to be straying off the topic of this thread, so I am going to start a seperate thread in which we can discuss the Eldar gods. |
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Post by malika on Oct 28, 2004 10:51:05 GMT -5
Im curious, are the other Eldar Gods still worshipped? Or is it only Khaine (and a bit of the Laughing God)? Or do these thing vary between each Craftworld/colony/exoditeworld (Dark Eldar only worship themselves and the Harlequins are servants of the Laughing God...but it's still questionable if they too worship the other Gods).
An off topic question to Kage: is the The Eldar Sourcebook ever going to be put out...I mean as in for all of us to read, or is it and will it remain a fully private thing?
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Post by Sikkukkut on Oct 29, 2004 1:20:18 GMT -5
My impression was that actual worship doesn't really feature in the Eldar temperament (which actually makes for an intriguing departure from humanity right there, now I think about it).
To me, Eldar spirituality is about mourning their gods and trying to carry on their memory and heritage: the Eldar know their gods are dead, and so their mythic culture is backward-looking and centred around grief and remembrance. One long funeral service, if you like, that has lasted since the fall.
A partial analogy might be the way that the Victorians felt, and some people still feel, about the Greek myths and the Greek gods. I know via the Net some very conservative and very religious types who would consider actually worshipping Zeus, Athena and the rest as quaintly stupid at best and mortally sinful at worst. But they are all happy to take those myths very seriously as powerful, archetypal examples of human virtues and flaws, and have no problem with asserting that any truly cultured person should be familiar with them.
That doesn't exactly parallel my image of the Eldar relationship with their mythic cycles, which I imagine to be all-consuming and all-defining, but it hints at it.
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). As such the 'consumption' of the eldar gods by Slaanesh did not destroy the but, rather, changed them into Its most powerful servants: the Keeper of Secrets, the greater daemons of Slaanesh.
concept, hence I thought that I would bring it in as one of the "Clans" of Tir'asur. That way if people were to take offence I could offer the standard GW hand-waving approch whereby it is not only a 'colony world' (therefore removed from the 'standard 'fluff''), but also more than likely a 'fan' craftworld.
It is not my interpretation of the 40k universe, but rather one that is as true to the various editions as possible without simply taking the 'new is true' approach. It also aims to consider the 'reality' of the situation and not merely accept something because some bod in Nottingham, or wherever, decided that something was a 'cool idea' and didn't actually stop to think about how 'real' it was (within the context of a fictional universe, that is).