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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 30, 2004 13:16:53 GMT -5
Okay, you've got an entire system. Tir'asur sits in one of the orbits (2, incidentally) but there are all these planets and satellites out there... What would you use them for?
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 21:29:47 GMT -5
Mineral-rich moons with a low gravity might make good ship yards, no? But then, a large presence of heavy minerals usually tends to cause a higher gravity, I guess.
I guess even the Eldar would have monitor stations too. Sure, they have powerful psykers with acute senses, but I don't think they are completely aware of everything approaching their system.
Other than that, I don't really see the point in having small colonies on other planets or moons in the system. Gas giants are pretty much useless to Eldar, I guess, and it's not like they need entire seperate worlds for agri-culture, research or industry.
I guess they might need some extra mining on other moons, planets or asteroid fields, but considering their small population, that depends very much on the age of Tir'asur. If they've only been here for some millennia, then they probably don't need extra mining.
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Post by malika on Aug 6, 2004 22:42:45 GMT -5
I thought Kage didnt want ship yards and observation posts...I remember him giving me a rant that I should quit my obsession with the ship yard or something some time ago
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 7, 2004 14:27:50 GMT -5
I thought Kage didnt want ship yards and observation posts...I remember him giving me a rant that I should quit my obsession with the ship yard or something some time ago I would suggest that it wasn't a "rant", but rather a suggestion that focussing upon the military aspects of the colony was not particularly useful at that juncture... Ship-yards... At present I'm not entirely keen on the idea of 'ship yards', at least in terms of the production of capital or larger ships. While they have the knowledge and the capability, I'm working on the idea that they are easier to import... Monitor stations... These are definitely included in the system and include both warp and materially based versions. I'm working on the principle that un-manned (eldared? ) will be present at or around the 'warp zone' (whatever that may be defined as; see Meta) as well as those points with significant 'mass shadows' (gas giants). And interestingly enough one has to wonder at the utilisation of both robotic and 'ancestor' (wraithlord) 'remote' ships... Getting to the two millennia age... Mining... That is one of the things that they actually do as a means of supplying basic minerals for the 'material creation' of wraithbone and other psychoplastics... If they've only been here for some millennia, then they probably don't need extra mining.
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Post by CELS on Aug 8, 2004 21:24:25 GMT -5
Ship-yards... At present I'm not entirely keen on the idea of 'ship yards', at least in terms of the production of capital or larger ships. While they have the knowledge and the capability, I'm working on the idea that they are easier to import... With the rarity of craftworlds who are capable of 'exporting' capital ships, this would leave your Eldar world quite vulnerable. This seems like a grotesque slavery of the ancestors. The Eldar seem reluctant to use them even in great battles where thousands of lives are at stake. To wake the dead and have them drive around in remote ships because the Eldar can't be bothered monitoring their system themselves... that seems inplausible. Mining... That is one of the things that they actually do as a means of supplying basic minerals for the 'material creation' of wraithbone and other psychoplastics... If they've only been here for some millennia, then they probably don't need extra mining. [/quote] Well... different worlds would have different minerals, I imagine. Perhaps some exotic and vital minerals can be found elsewhere in the system. And what about web gates or webway portals, or whatever you call them? I seem to remember these mentioned in the fluff. Actual structures that function as an entrance to the webway. Wouldn't it be convenient for Eldar ships to have such huge portals which they could use to jump between positions in the system? An invading enemy might suddenly find that a small Eldar fleet has suddenly appeared behind him, even though nothing turned up on the scans a second ago. Or something like that.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 2:28:00 GMT -5
With the rarity of craftworlds who are capable of 'exporting' capital ships, this would leave your Eldar world quite vulnerable. Any reasonably sized craftworld is capable of producing capital-ships. And even by your chain of logic, if it is rare to find a craftworld capable of 'exporting' a capital ship, wouldn't it be just as rare - perhaps even more so - to find a colony world capable of doing the same? This seems like a grotesque slavery of the ancestors. The Eldar seem reluctant to use them even in great battles where thousands of lives are at stake. To wake the dead and have them drive around in remote ships because the Eldar can't be bothered monitoring their system themselves... that seems inplausible. No, you just don't like the idea. There's a difference. While the 'fluff' does tend to view the Ancestors as 'dead' it is clear that they still take an 'active' part in craftworld life thus making the true mortuary concept defunct. Again, it was just a concept. There is little difference in having a 'remote' ship and having a ship with a crew and an Infinity Circuit... Well... different worlds would have different minerals, I imagine. Perhaps some exotic and vital minerals can be found elsewhere in the system. It's possible... but for me the major requirements of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, titaniums, aluminiums... that type of thing. And what about web gates or webway portals, or whatever you call them? I call them? Inconsistent use of terminology, more like. I hereby suggest that a Webway Gate(way) is a defined structure commonly found on worlds. A Webway Portal, on the other hand, is more a volume of space and is therefore more hazily defined. It is the latter type that is normally found in space. Wouldn't it be convenient for Eldar ships to have such huge portals which they could use to jump between positions in the system? There are, indeed, both Webway portals and gates within the system and on the various worlds, respectively. The only problem here is that there is a general 'idea' that there is only one Webway "entrance" per system, a concept that I find invalid.
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Post by CELS on Aug 9, 2004 2:57:19 GMT -5
Any reasonably sized craftworld is capable of producing capital-ships. And even by your chain of logic, if it is rare to find a craftworld capable of 'exporting' a capital ship, wouldn't it be just as rare - perhaps even more so - to find a colony world capable of doing the same? Yep. Which is why I suggested that this system might have ship yards. And two millennia is plenty of time to build some ship yards, no? Ah well, it was just an idea. Take it or leave it. I merely suggested that it might be difficult to 'import' such capital ships from other craftworlds, because it seemed you didn't want too great an Eldar presence in this region. Kage, please. I'm actually trying to help here, and even though I'm clearly failing, I think you should keep that in mind. Or perhaps I should just stay away from these threads, since you more than often react this way to my posts. Well, you know the Eldar fluff better than I. I was just thinking of examples like this, from Codex: Eldar (3rd ed) "With due reverence, Arienal took the living spirit stone from the matrix and cradled it in her hands, a single tear running down hr cheek. Even now, after so many centuries, she was loath to disturb those in eternal rest, to snare a spirit back from paradise."Well, that's true. But then I never really understood the Infinity Circuit properly (more the reason to stay away from this discussion), as I still haven't had time to sift through all the old Eldar fluff. I meant 'you' as in a hypothetical third person. Replace with 'everyone' or 'they' if you will. The suggestion is fine by me. I don't see any reason for this restriction either, so I'd agree with you there.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 3:43:30 GMT -5
Yep. Which is why I suggested that this system might have ship yards. And two millennia is plenty of time to build some ship yards, no? It's a toss of coins. Why build shipyards in a system and not on the home craftworld where they are more usually located. I'm going to hold off on this idea since it seems entirely suited to preference given that there are equal arguments both ways, more so if you follow through with the ones presented above. If I do include it I may do so as a transitional state, but still not one that is capable of producing capital ships. These come from the home craftworld... (Not as if there are really that many capital ships in the system...) Ah well, it was just an idea. Take it or leave it. I merely suggested that it might be difficult to 'import' such capital ships from other craftworlds, because it seemed you didn't want too great an Eldar presence in this region. How does importing Kage, please. I'm actually trying to help here, and even though I'm clearly failing, I think you should keep that in mind. My answer was somewhat more sharp than intended. However, you alluded to the mortuary aspect of the Infinity Circuit in absence of reference to the - how shall I say - more dynamic aspects present in the rest of the 'fluff'. Therefore it becomes a matter of preference, i.e. you dislike the image since it jars with that which you have of the eldar... As far as I could tell. Again, it's a part of the 'fluff' transition... if you're only aware of the 3E 'fluff' then a holistic approach does seem implausible, especially when filtered through cohesive perception. I have the same problem when dealing with the newer material... Well, you know the Eldar fluff better than I. I was just thinking of examples like this, from Codex: Eldar (3rd ed) Again, see the above. The Ancestors seem to have a different idea, though. They're more than willing to 'break their rest' or 'slumber' to look at some pretty eldar in garish colours prance around on stage... Remember that 40k has been gradually shifting to almost exclusive fantasy imagery. I try and incorporate both with the concept of 'craftworld gestalt conscious' (the slumbering eldar) and those that wish to take a more active part. Well, that's true. But then I never really understood the Infinity Circuit properly (more the reason to stay away from this discussion), as I still haven't had time to sift through all the old Eldar fluff. It changes from the graveyard, to a communications centre, to a computer... it all depends on who writes it and what image they are trying to achieve at any given time. There is very little cohesive 'fluff' on them...
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Post by Sojourner on Aug 13, 2004 3:32:02 GMT -5
How about one planet or moon used as a refugium for the colony's most powerful seers...
Somewhere that a powerful individual can go and isolate himself for some time while getting in touch with the world-spirit, all without the clouding influence of other souls, or indeed the risk to said souls of his activities.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 13, 2004 6:00:07 GMT -5
Thats a damn good idea, but why stop with the seers might other groups not also have an interest in having a private base/place to go. Its not like it would entail difficult journeys what with the webway and all, mearly like stepping into another room.
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Post by CELS on Aug 13, 2004 9:47:31 GMT -5
With the low population on Tir'asur, privacy isn't usually a big issue, and one must consider the cost of building a refuge on a distant planet. I guess I see the point in the Seer refuge, but unless you mean a communion with the world spirit of the distant planet, I think it would be better (and cheaper) to just take a space craft and move away from Tir'asur. Not as cool though.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 13, 2004 11:10:45 GMT -5
what about a research facility and proving grounds? The state of eldar technology is not static. They still move forward in the cnstruction of vehicles, weapons and other technology. It would therefore be prudent to have a place to test these devices safely.
This idea goes hand in hand with the "not in my back yard" syndrome. Everyone agrees that there is a need for testing facilities, power plants, waste disposal and processing facilities, but noone wants it near them. By removing it to a small moon or one of the other "unihabited planets in the system, you avoid this problem. It would also make security easier as well.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 17, 2004 3:43:07 GMT -5
Yup, a population of around 900,000 on a world with a diameter of 6,320km that's something like 558km 2 per eldar... Space is not going to be an issue for the eldar on this world! (And even if you didn't include water, that's still 229km 2! And then if you did include it, then you could also include at least a fraction of the volume for subaquatic and as well as aerial living space!) I'm not overtly sure whether military and other technologies are going to be developed on Tir'asur or the surrounding planetary system. It just doesn't gel overtly with my concept for the world, along with the idea that you have tons of "space yards". Again, depending on how you wish to view eldar technology (automated or not) then you could swing it so many ways... and I'm not sure that I want to create a hugely powerful, potentially industrial world with the capability of producing powerful capital ships, new weapons of "mass destructification" ( ) and so on... It no longer becomes a colony, but a static craftworld. Okay, ultimately that might be the goal but the colony has only been kicking around for around 3-4 generations...
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Post by malika on Aug 17, 2004 6:54:20 GMT -5
What about having training grounds on one of these other worlds. I mean, young Eldar have to learn how to use their vehicles or weaponry, and it would be unwise to try all that out on the Craftworld, or "too near" habitated areas.
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Post by Sojourner on Aug 17, 2004 9:42:12 GMT -5
Possibly somewhere that the Eldar keep a set of Akliamor?
or a Tombworld, guarded solely by a contingent of Wraithguard?
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