Clan symbolism: Duality or not...?

I would concur, the eldar seem very dualist to me, I couldn't be specific about that its just a feeling from all the things i've read about them. Indeed look at the aspect warriors isn't that the other side of the eldar if you know what i mean.


Thats not so much duality as factions. Or are the wyrm clan the dragon clan every other day of the week, that would be duality.

Can you give an example of any other clans. The pheonix clan would be death and life both would be different sides of the same coin. from life to death and death new life both are needed for the balance of creation or what not

I don't wish to incur your wrath but is there a list of all the clans there are so far, I heard you mention wyrm an vulture, were they actuall clans or were they the flip side of the two clans you used as an example.
The beast of the hunt would that be prey or hunter, wolf or hart, Hawk or what ever hawks eat, sorry, insperation failed.
Do you see this duality being applied to the eldar gods, as you mentioned above Kurnuous, he could be either prey or hunter could he not

The dragon clan could be creation and destruction which are the two side's i would ascribe to fire

Pheonix clan life and death

I'm not sure who the spider clan are or what they are about so i could'nt comment

Some ideas for clans
Unicorn clan (there seems to be a mythical beast thing going on with the clans)
Wolf/Hound/bear Clan for the wild beast thing
panther/lynx/tiger clan if you wanted the more feline approach
hart/stag/bison clan for the prey side of things
shark/naga/snake clan for an aquatic themed one
kingfisher/hawk/eagle clan swift strike could be the basis for these clans
Am i heading in the right direction for what you were asking or did we part company a while back

Reperesenting only a duality in the eldar culture is doinf it a disservice, it also limits the possible clans. This would be like saying you can only be a craftworld eldar or of the dark eldar. It does not recognize those that choose the path of the outcast or that take the road of the exodites. The clans need to represent trends or dynamics in eldar society more like political parties or social organizations.

Rather than trying to define the clans by a specific animal, we should maybe address what social dynamic each embodies and then work from there.

Rather than having just one clan that deals with military conquest as a way to bring back the golden age of the eldar, you could have several or at least 2. One might take the xenophobic approach and aim to eliminate all other races that pose a threat to the eldar. This would be a highly warlike clan, who value strong offensive capabilities.

The other would be less warlike. They might ascribe to a "peace through strength" mentality. do not start the wars, but show your enemy the folly of attacking you. This is more of a defensive posture, but is just as viable as the offensive concept. Those that would seek to do battle might find the deliberate and calculating manner of this clan to constraining.

There could be another warlike clan that stives to allow its memebers to experience the baser natures of their selves....that part of them that hears the calling of the dark eldar. They do not hunt or fight sentient creatures, but go out of their way to find the deadliest beasts to fight. It allows them to release aggression, plus better understand their own dark side.

Other clans might be craftworlders who wish to create something similar to an exodite society without going as far as the exodites. They may crave the trappings of the simple life, while still holding onto some luxuries of a technological society. This return to nature could be similar to the idea of communes from the 60s and 70s (shudders.....eldar hippies).

Another clan might try to bring life to the lifeless. This could perhaps be reclaiming land that is desert or wasteland. They may be testing technologies to one day remake the crone worlds into paradise.

What of clans that strive to improve or extend their psychic abilities? All eldar may be psychic, but some are more gifted than others. These like individuals may congregate together into their own clan.

What of clans that seek a return to a golden age, not through conquest, but by joining together with the other races of the galaxy. These would be diplomats that might court the lesser (in population) races of the Sector. They strive to find some commonality to not only make friends, but find thowe of like mind to perhaps build a meshed society that will bring all to greatness.

There could also be a clan whose view is darker. they do not see a golden age on the horizon, but the coming of a great darkness. They may be collecting all the great works and artifacts that they can lay their hands on and writing the history of the eldar, before the end comes.

These are just a couple of possibilities off the top of my head. Any thoughts to perhaps flesh these out more?

Dualism was engendered merely from a consideration of the 'Clan Council' structure on Tir'asur and... well, not a lot else. The idea of having opposing philosophies but ultimately the same goal (in some circumstances), as well as diametrically opposed philosophies just at that time appealed to my sensibilities.


Actually, it doesn't...


The Clan structure describes the craftworld eldar alone, and does not directly involved the dark eldar or the exodites. Those that follow the Path of the Outcast can be Clanless, but moreoften than not while they find the restrictions of craftworld eldar society to be not for them, that doesn't mean that they feel less responsibility or duty to the eldar in general, or the craftworld specifically...


They were originally described as interest groups, so yes. The icon is just an interest way of getting people to think about the goals and/or philosophy of the Clan rather than just giving them a pretty paint scheme and putting them on, say, jet bikes...


<grin> I was trying to get there from the other direction for reasons above... when you start off on the abstract I've found that people tend to get disinterested real quick... <sigh>


You will note that those two concepts were taken up in the Dragon and the Wyrm, with the former being those who see it through the strength of the eldar and those who see it through the weakness and destruction of other races, respectively.


Yup, another possibility. One might choose "Bear" or something similar. Question is whether you go for a mythological being or not... I like the mythological beings, myself.


We'll leave that to Paths... Remember that they are 'interest groups' predicated around philosophy and interpretation. Leave the emotional experience to the Paths and the Ways...


Arguably that's just an Exodite colony without the feudal overlay...


Now that's another good idea.


I was going to suggest that, rather obviously, this is broaching upon the Path of the Seer. With that said, though, it does have some merit... they would see the development of their powers as furthering the goals of the race somehow. The problem here is that you create a loaded situation whereby you get Clans of Farseers, which is for me as tedious as saying that the Farseers rule the eldar.


Another valid concept. One would imagine that they, along with Phoenix, would also tend to have more 'traders' than Dragon or Wyrm, for example.


With the eldar being the most equal pig of all, of course.


I found it more difficult to counterpoint what I referred in my mind as the 'returnist' Clans with viable conservative Clans. The 'morose' counterpoint represented by that whining, moaning git of a Farseer in Shadow Point...

So, another good idea.


Oh yes... feels a tad on the cliched side, but one could definitely look at the WoD RPG and the various Clans, Tribes and Traditions as inspiration.

Again I'd like the traditional mythological icon, but there we go...


As above.


Phoenix is more typically associated with rebirth, although that does shade in the process of life and death. With regards to the elemental oppositions, that is more a case of magic traditions than anything else.


Dragons are also symbols of protection... depends on where you look for your mythology.


It is true that the differentation between Path and Clan can sometimes be confusing. That is another reason that I wanted to introduced both since it allows maximum conformance to the 'fluff' with minimum actual conformance to the 'fluff' (i.e. you don't have to pay attention to some of the more recent ridiculous 'fluff' on the eldar).

Based upon the concept that Exarchs are usually trapped within a single Way unless they are the exceptional Menshad Korum, one might see a parallel in the Path of the Seer. Thus while the majority are trapped within a single Way (i.e. 'Farseers' of the Way of the Warlock might be referred to as Battleseers), there are those that walk amongst the Ways: these are the indiviudals that are commonly thought of as leaders, but not quite in the way that people think.

Getting back on topic, while Farseers guide the eldar through various means (manipulation of other races) the means by which this is achieved is moderated by Clan. Furthermore, not every indiviudal that is interested in manipulation is a Farseer...

Consider it another way. Who reads and is interested in, for various reasons, books like The Art of War, On War, The Prince, The Book of the Five Rings, Hakugare, etc.? Consider just one of those and you realise that there are many interest groups who share a point in commonality but not all indiviudals within that interest group must have the same 'traits'.


You structuralist, you.


LOL, as do I. But then again I try and integrate celtic and oriental where possible. (E.g. their mythology seems more celtic, while their society seems more oriental.)


The fun thing about it is, though, that once you have a basic premise for the Clan the traits of the animal can suggest interesting little additions to flesh them out.

<Kage is contented at progressing eldar thread> ;D

Some other clan ideas....

1. The Uplift Program

While one clan may be trying to forge alliances with other alien cultures and make an integrated society there may be another clan that looks for races on the cusp of sentience or that are less advanced. They would then take these beings and use them to fight their wars.

The clan might look at the success of the Tau with the Kroot and try to emulate this relationshipin their own manner. This would alow the fielding of a much smaller eldar force, supported by these other races. It would help to limit of the deaths of eldar in battle, while increasing the size of the standing army.

Direct control of other species would not be their only avenue of research. They might also look into controling the birth rate or the life cycle of a given race. Perhaps they are conducting experiments on controling the population of orks or perhaps seeing if a breed of orks can be grown that would actively fight other orks rather than other species.

2. Watchers in the Night

The great enemy (Necrons) are still out there. At the moment, they have not fully awakened. It is only a matter of time though, before they do. the talismans of Vaul have for the most part been lost to the eldar.

This clan might be seeking new ways to destroy the enemy. For this reason, they might delve into ancinet lores from the time of the war in heaven. they may also walk roads or travel paths that have not been walked since the departure of the old ones, looking for some devices or information they left behind. The clan may also actively pursue this new varient of Necrons called Pariahs in order to study them.

The emergence of new types of Necrons proves that they eldar can not risk sitting and waiting, they must act now while the enemy is still weak.

3. Ghost Walkers

This may be one of the odder clans, but these are eldar that channel the spirits of those that have gone into the infinity circuit. While it is true that the infinity circuit houses the information of those that inhabit it, actually putting that information into practical use is at times difficult.

By channeling the spirits of the eldar (through soul stones imbedded in the forehead), the clan memebers hope to allow the departed to continue working on projects that may prove vital to the eldar as a whole.

It is one thing to have the data developed by someone like einstein, but imagine if he had lived another 2 or 3 decades, what might have been accomplished. It is thought that the joining also allows the chanellor to gain a better understanding of the individual and perhaps be able to understand the work even after the joining is finished.

It is one step beyond having a spirit mentor, because for a time the spirit is able to inhabit the channelors body. Some spirits are willing to do this for the brief chance to again experience life...even if it is by proxy.

Well, that does depend on where you get your source information... one might consider animals associated with specific deities in the 'celtic' pantheon might be totemic. Consider the 'stag' and Curnonous (e.g. "Herne the Hunter" imagery, since you purport to be old enough to remember the show that had him in! ).


That's true. There are actually a huge number from various cultures across the world, but half tiger/half fish is not something that I would want to include. Furthermore, one suggestion that you make later is the use of 'magical elements', yet not only am I not keen on this approach but also it has a far more restricted number than animals, mythical or otherwise, does it not?


Definitely a valid point. For some reason I don't see it as suitable... maybe, kinda... but one has to remember that "Terran" names do show up: Fire Dragon, Howling Banshee, Striking Scorption, Swooping Hawk, etc.

Of course, one might wonder if those are just appropriate Terran analogues to the true animal/mythological creature... but I'm not sure whether I want to go down the route of giving them 'eldar' names and just saying "Well, it's kind of like a Dragon..."


No, that particularly Clan is just focussing upon the rebirth aspect and adopted the image. One might say that the growth/rebirth of the eldar will ultimately consume those that 'stand against' the eldar first (i.e. the self-consumption/death image) and that subsequently the eldar will be born out of the ashes... But again this requires a spectrum of opinion within a specific interest group. That is to say, for example, the above might be thought almost border upon the Dragon Clan's philosophical 'territory'.


I presume you mean bible there, but still it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When were dragons integrated into the bible? (I actually have a fear that someone is actually going to quote scripture to prove me wrong, which is probably easy to do since I haven't read the bible since I was a child.)


That is a non-canonical extension of the 'fluff' on Exarchs, which has the majority of them remaining within a single Way and a very few moving between the Ways to become Menshad Korum ("Warriors in Search of Themselves", or something like that). It would seem reasonable that those that became trapped on the Path of the Seer to become 'Farseers' (the only name that we have for a so-called 'paramount practitioner' of the Path of the Seer, with Exarchs being that for the Warrior Path) are likewise normally restricted to the Way within which they were when they made the transition... Similarly it would seem reasonable that there would be some that, for some reason, remain capable of moving between the Ways even if they are forever trapped upon the Path of the Seer.

Indeed, these might be attributed more attention than any of the 'Farseers', or Seers, because of this ability to change scope. Of course, they are also feared because they have separated away from the Path and are, in essence, blinkered to the wider experience of the Path and, therefore, eldar society and the universe in general.


Yet we know that this happens. Consider that Auric Stormcloud in Farseer believes that some members of Ulthwe - other Farseers (of course with the normal slant on Farseers in canonical material :, amongst others - might wish to stop him on his chosen course. There are factions within eldar society and it is up to the determination of the individual how they are going to apply such determinations.

One might argue that this is merely found on the Seer Council, where all the 'Farseers' wrangle over their specific interpretation of the future... I would say that this is merely a representation of a wider feature, e.g. the determination of an indiviudal to serve the eldar in the way that they see fit...


The eldar give the visions of the Seer Council great attention and, indeed, will base political decisions around them. But the Farseers do not lead. And remember that a Farseer might be a member of the Spider Clan and have a different vision... Who do you listen to then?

Or would some suggest that 'paramount practitioners' are Clanless? After all this would be reasonable: they no longer are a part of the Path system and are dedicated purely to their final Way or, more rarely, Path. What interests do they have...?


Now you're just being patronising with no reason.


I'm afraid that I'm not going to have a "Clan of Fire" or whatever.


The Clans are something I see as being a post-Fall consideration, disseminated in the same way that the Path system. An attempt to get back to some of the core ideals/symbols of their past, just as the adoption of 'lines' harking back to that time would have been fairly common. E.g. Auric and Athenys from Farseer both being "of the line of Manan", who in 'celtic' mythology is obvious a deity associated with the sea... Are they trying to say that they are god-children, or is the adoption of such a lineage that much simpler?


Well, it would be helpful if they were presented in a context suitable to the, at present, Clan symbol/whatever system above...

Oh yes, and remember that some of the ideas presented could be incorporated into the goals/philosophy of one of the established Clans rather than creating hundreds of minor ones...


Another interesting potential, moreso especially when you consider that the standard UWP of Tir'asur is that of a world with indigenous sentient life...


Not an image I'm overtly keen on, but there we go. Despite the obvious applications, that is.


Why would the eldar not have performed this before in their supposedly tens of million of years history?


Again, given the proximity of Tir'asur to the "Heart of Anargo" this is also interesting... But see the first point.


First off, the 'fluff' indicates that Ancestor spirits can of their own will become engaged in 'projects' as well as aid those that remain in the material world. Secondly, a class of Seer - the Spirit Seer - acts in this function....


That I am not keen on.

Watch the smilies then... Erm, he says.


Heck, maybe I made the assumption that you came from the UK. Ah well... Robin of Sherwood.


Erm, yes. I'm fairly sure that I mentioned that!


A quick Google later, and it is used as a metaphor for Satan. Not sure whether it was actually 'dragon-headed'. Otherwise it's restricted to desert-dwelling creatures (probably of size), a 'sea monster' or crocodile or even 'serpent'...

But I'm digressing.


And a number of other sources, though you digress somewhat!


As to the first point, I intend to use it. I thought that would have been obvious since the picture that I'm painting of the eldar of Tir'asur is slightly different from the one that you would normally associate with the eldar. Little things like the fact that the Farseers are not the leaders of the eldar... the presence of the three councils, etc.

It's the "get out clause" on the integration of my own skewed interpretation of the eldar since it is a separate, non-canonical craftworld (though one may have an interest in colony world) and it is a colony of a craftworld, itself which may bias things one way or another. There are therefore at least two 'blast doors' in between me and the flames, though only one with the craftworld if I ever get around to creating any information on that.

With regard to 'keeping' them in terms of interpretation of the composition of the Seer component of the colony world, or indeed the home craftworld, I will be doing so since it offers an interesting point at which specific craftworld(s)/colony world(s) may choose non-standard actions in an attempt to make up for a short-falling in a specific Path or Way present upon the said location. Consider, for example, the Battleseer: this is an indiviudal who was on the Way of the Warlock when they became trapped, with their precognitive abilities focussed almost entirely around the ebb and flow of battle, as well as having significantly enlarged magical/martial ability. This is the type of 'Farseer' that might be used as the 'leader' of a significant army (in the same way that the suggestion is that a Menshad Korum takes a more significant role in terms of a 'general' for an army that doesn't have a Battleseer)... It would be exceedingly rare for an individual who is not a Seer equivalent of Menshad Korum or who is not a 'Battleseer' to make an appearance on the battlefield: quite simply they are not ready for it.


Each eldar is like an Inquisitor or, if you like your fantasy novels, a Black Robe from the Tsurani Empire of Raymond E. Feists Riftwar books (and the Empire trilogy, of course). They are grouping together out of common interest and philosophy, but otherwise each eldar empowers themselves - are done so through society - to take individual and personal responsibility for their actions and for the eldar as a race/craftworld. While there are broad guidelines and sensibilities (provided herein with the Clan/interest group concept) there is still going to be variation on the interpretation thereof. In other words it is natural that they are not going to see eye to eye on some things!


Ah, but the counter-argument to that is the Path is not as dominating as some might argue. Warriors are also poets as a counterpoint to their Path/Way, for example. (Some might argue that all said poetry revolves around blood and war, but I wouldn't buy that... if anything the Aspect Warriors are followers of an eldar equivalent of bushido with all that entails in later period samurai.)

Basically there are lots of arguments. There's Clanless, which you say you prefer, there's the idea that individual choice is permitted, and of course there is the idea that they would enter archetypal Clans determinant on indiviudal philosophy at the time of transition. Battleseers enter Dragon or Wyrm (depending on the definition of Clans), while generic "Farseers" might automatically head into Spider... or whatever.

(Problem here is discussing specific Clans without any concrete concept of what they do other than Dragon or Phoenix... )


In short it depends on interpretation. The first one has at times been ascribed to the eldar in a form of mimicry of the activities of the Old Ones (this was before the new 'fluff' on the Old Ones came out).

The second? Is that Clan or function? I'm more swayed toward Clan although it is disappointingly (but appropriately) focussed on the Necrons, C'tan and most likely Old Ones. No animal springs to mind other than some form of 'guardian' animal... ack, nothing springs to mind. Cerberus just doesn't work...

(Of course, it would be just as simple to drop the mythological focus and have multiple concepts, but still... it behooves you to try! )

The third? Nah. That's Spirit Seers pure and simple. Eldar Ancestors are capable of interacting with the living - despite some of the modern 'fluff' which ascribes them as "Dead, kinda, so we don't touch them" - and are indeed used as control and power systems in some cases. The only requirement would be the channelling of spirits that have long since lost their interest in the material universe and have become undifferentiated or integrated into the craftworld consciousness itself... only then is a Spirit Seer required to guide the 'soul' back to itself, even if only for a short while.

I'm also very unkeen on the necromancy/possession gig, something which is seen in some horror in eldar soceity, or at least based upon the actions of Auric Stormcloud.