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Post by Destecado on May 20, 2004 12:02:46 GMT -5
I really didn't understand what you were saying in your last post. Were you saying that we are not trying to figure out how the energy is obtained from the warp, but how that energy now stored in the wraithbone is transmitted to power eldar technology?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 20, 2004 12:24:18 GMT -5
<grin> Now you know the feeling... The 'fluff' now seems entirley clear that wraithbone does provide the eldar with power. It might not be the singular source of power generation for the eldar, but it is a significant feature. The questions therefore arise at the interaction of 'power' from wraithbone and more mundane sources of energy and, also, how wraithbone-power is utilised in eldar technology? It might just be a case of going, "Wraitbone generates power which can be used for psychic or electromechanical purposes", or coming up with some other reason. (Indeed the most original and the one that I most disagree with is that the ancestors in the Inifinty Circuit psychokinetically turn turbines to generate power... : The only real problems comes with integrating this information with psyker practice. For example, can a "psyker power reservoir" be used to power, say, a vehicle for a short period of time? Similarly can a vehicle power source be usfed to power psyker abilities... (My preference at present is to say 'no' to the former and, 'only if they have the correct abilities' to the latter, i.e. Bonesinger.) Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 20, 2004 17:20:08 GMT -5
The questions therefore arise at the interaction of 'power' from wraithbone and more mundane sources of energy and, also, how wraithbone-power is utilised in eldar technology? Well I'm not sure if this is a good explanation of how the energy gets from teh wraithbone to the machines as power, but it might help to explain the crystal targeting matrix. The transfer of energy might occur as a resonant energy transfer. Resonant energy transfer is when a force does work simultaneously with natural resonance, which can transfer a large amount of energy to that resonance. This energy causes vibrations. the best example of this is a tuning fork. If you strike it, the fork will begin to vibrate at a given frequency. If you were to grasp the vibrating ends of the tuning fork, the vibrations would be transferred to your hand. As the wraithbone acting as a capacitor fills with energy, it will begin to vibrate, transfering those vibrations to more parts of the wraithbone which pick up the vibrations. This description of how an MRI works might help to give some idea of the concepts. electronics.howstuffworks.com/mri.htmInstead of alligning ionized particles in the wraithbone magnetically, it is done through vibrations, which carries the charge through the wraithbone to the receptor, which would be the machine to be powered. It is very similar to bioelectric circuitry. It might just be a case of going, "Wraitbone generates power which can be used for psychic or electromechanical purposes", or coming up with some other reason. (Indeed the most original and the one that I most disagree with is that the ancestors in the Inifinty Circuit psychokinetically turn turbines to generate power... : I don't really care for this spiritual hamster wheel idea...I think that the technology of the wraithbone was been adapted to hold a different energy form, the souls of dead eldar. If we go with the theory of rseonance, then the wraithbone could be "tuned" by a bonesinger to the proper frequency to act as a repository for the spiritual energy. This mightbe sort of how they control wraithlords and other eldar spirit driven technology. It would be kind of like a spiritual form of biofeedback. The spirits have the ability to modulate or change the flow of the ionized vibrations in order to make the machine move in a certain way. The only real problems comes with integrating this information with psyker practice. For example, can a "psyker power reservoir" be used to power, say, a vehicle for a short period of time? Similarly can a vehicle power source be usfed to power psyker abilities... If you think about it, a witch blade or force weapon sort of draws its power or is powered by the psycher using it. It stands to reason that they might be able to power a vehicle or atleast a part of a vehicle. Now we are sort of getting into the territory of the Matrix. Your not talking of turning eldar psykers into batteries for ships or vehicles are you?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 21, 2004 7:41:18 GMT -5
Well I'm not sure if this is a good explanation of how the energy gets from teh wraithbone to the machines as power... <grin> Every now and again you come up with an explanation that actually does little to explain the concept that you're coming up with. Thus with last... Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps... It would also give another reason about the whole 'singing'/music malarky with reference to Bonesingers, a feature which contradicts earlier 'fluff' otherwise. Instead of alligning ionized particles in the wraithbone magnetically, it is done through vibrations, which carries the charge through the wraithbone to the receptor, which would be the machine to be powered. It is very similar to bioelectric circuitry. Fair enough. The structure of wraithbone is malleable, remembering that I describe it (as does the 'fluff'... ish) as a carbon nanopolymer. I don't really care for this spiritual hamster wheel idea... Neither do I, but thought that I would mention it since it was raised on Critical Hit. I think that the technology of the wraithbone was been adapted to hold a different energy form, the souls of dead eldar. I'm actually torn whether the souls can exist as a property fo the wraithbone or whether there should be a power drain for the Infinity Circuit... It just gets excessive at 3-4MW per soul... If we go with the theory of rseonance, then the wraithbone could be "tuned" by a bonesinger to the proper frequency to act as a repository for the spiritual energy. Only in part. It is a combination of both sound and psychic energy. The question is how this relates to the molecular/nanonic structure of the wraithbone... The spirits have the ability to modulate or change the flow of the ionized vibrations in order to make the machine move in a certain way. Although this creates a situation where wraithbone is more flexible than most people like to see it... If you think about it, a witch blade or force weapon sort of draws its power or is powered by the psycher using it. That is up for debate, I'm afraid. It's true in a certain way, but... well, I'm still working on how to represent eldar psykers... Your not talking of turning eldar psykers into batteries for ships or vehicles are you? No, not at all... I'm actually against this. But it is a natural byproduct of the inter-relation of psychic and electromechanical energy. As I said above, I'm against psykers being able to power machines (unless they're specifically skilled) or being able to draw energy from machines (ditto)... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 21, 2004 13:06:40 GMT -5
Fair enough. The structure of wraithbone is malleable, remembering that I describe it (as does the 'fluff'... ish) as a carbon nanopolymer. A thought occured to me when I was working on the cartilage idea for Glyphstone's Atlanteans. Part of the defelopement of bone occurs in the ossification (hardening) process of cartilage like structures. The hardening of wraaithbone might be thought of as a crystalization process. One of the possible forms that nano machines might take and that scientists are currently developing are specialized long chain protene molecules. Perhaps in wraithbone, the nano part is based off of long chain carbon atoms. I'm actually torn whether the souls can exist as a property fo the wraithbone or whether there should be a power drain for the Infinity Circuit... It just gets excessive at 3-4MW per soul... I'm not sure if it would cause a power drain, but the charge would degrade over time. This might be part of an explanation why souls stored in the Infinity Cicuit for long periods begin to fade or lose memeories. There might also be some leakage out of the system that causes degradation as well. I don't see the infinty circuit being part of the original design for eldar craftworlds. They instead found a new applicatio for their existing technology. Before the awakening of Slaanesh, there would have been no reason to store souls in an Infinity Circuit. This again harkens back to perhaps learning something from their old adversary the Necrontyr. By adapting the Wraithbone, they were able to make it store soul energy instead of energy from the warp. There of course would have to be a discriminator placed in the system, to prevent this specific energy from being used as a power source. Only in part. It is a combination of both sound and psychic energy. The question is how this relates to the molecular/nanonic structure of the wraithbone... Psychic energy is still directed by or controlled by a living mind. That mind relays information through nerve inpulses. These impulses are usual small electronic charges which would travel in waves as well.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 21, 2004 17:47:11 GMT -5
Part of the defelopement of bone occurs in the ossification (hardening) process of cartilage like structures. The hardening of wraaithbone might be thought of as a crystalization process. <grin> I can quite safely say that I doubt that there is anything that you can tell me about ossification of skeletal tissues - osteogenesis (either endochondral or intramembranous), dentinogenesis, ameleogensis, etc. - that I, unfortunately, don't know about... If it only it were not the case! Perhaps in wraithbone, the nano part is based off of long chain carbon atoms. While I think the 'nano' component is up for debate in terms of the exact nature, I do see the 'bone' analogy as being valid in terms to location. (E.g. enrichment of 'blast' nanites on the surface, similar to suggests for nanonic architecture/structures; mainteance nanites in lacunae, etc.) I'm going to avoid the protein suggestion (basically long-ish chain carbons 'n' other stuff), whether collagenous or noncollagenous! Of course, whether one extends formation of bone to wraithbone so that we have the whole collagen, inter-fibril nucleation of hydroxyapatite (which doesn't really have an analog per se), is entirely a different kettle of fish... I'm not sure if it would cause a power drain, but the charge would degrade over time. Well, it would definitely 'fill' up the capacitance of the wraithbone. This just translates to a certain 'energy capacity'/minimal size of wraithbone... Not too worry too much about that, however. This might be part of an explanation why souls stored in the Infinity Cicuit for long periods begin to fade or lose memeories. I don't buy that, I'm afraid. "Loss of memories" results from the removal of 'ties' that keep the eldar in the lower portions of the Infinity Matrix... with the loss of differentation, the 'soul' tends to integrate with the Craftworld consciousness. Check out Hamilton's Edenist habitats for more information on this concept... There might also be some leakage out of the system that causes degradation as well. Entropy is always going to have an effect, hence the suggestion that it requires power to sustain a degrading system (above). But I'm not going to translate that to loss of memories being directly linked to this... I don't see the infinty circuit being part of the original design for eldar craftworlds. They instead found a new applicatio for their existing technology. Broadly I would agree with you... it's for this reason that I have the 'soul' properties of the IC mapped onto the computational qualities. Before the awakening of Slaanesh, there would have been no reason to store souls in an Infinity Circuit. Well 'no reason' is a bit of a strong statement. I can think of numerous reasons that this might have be done. Suffice to say, however, that it would not have been necessary for the survival of the eldar soul to preserve it in an 'Infinity Circuit'. Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 24, 2004 11:44:30 GMT -5
<grin> I can quite safely say that I doubt that there is anything that you can tell me about ossification of skeletal tissues - osteogenesis (either endochondral or intramembranous), dentinogenesis, ameleogensis, etc. - that I, unfortunately, don't know about... If it only it were not the case! I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. Is it a viable means of conducting energy throughout the craft worls and into necessary machines? The outter ossified portion of the wraithbone would act as a dense capacitor, with the energy release (probably in pulses) into the central channel that would carry the power throughout the craft world). There should perhaps be wraithbone that does not act as a capacitor. the outer hull of the craftworld should probably be made of this type of wraithbone. It could be tuned to a neutal state so that it does not absorb energy. Imagine hits by enemy fire damaging an area of wraithbone fully charged with energy....the results would be catostrophic. Capacitant wraithbone would probably be sheathed in "neutral" wraithbone. It could perhaps also oscillate at a frequency that is directly opposite of the capacitant wraithbone. This would create a white noise effect to cancel out the potential hazerdous effects of the high energy particles traveling through the capacitant wraithbone. It is theorized that intenste electromagentic fields or high frequency energy waves can cause cancer or other defects. This is why studies have been done on the effects of power lines on the families that live close to them. Living in a craftworld with wraithbone going everywhere, it would be next to impossible to get away from these high energy fields. It is therefore necessary to create a dampening effect or some kind of shielding...interestingly if we are going with the idea that craft world eldar may have lower birth rates, perhaps this plays some part in that. I don't buy that, I'm afraid. "Loss of memories" results from the removal of 'ties' that keep the eldar in the lower portions of the Infinity Matrix... with the loss of differentation, the 'soul' tends to integrate with the Craftworld consciousness. Check out Hamilton's Edenist habitats for more information on this concept... I took a look at the concept. For the most part it seems to indicate the creation of a gestalt mind. Is some of the degredation of the sould due to the bleeding together into a greater whole (losing self identity in the mass consiousness)? If you think about it, this idea of the gestalt mind can actually factor into the eldar idea of government, if we go with the swiss canton concept (Rule by consensus). All the minds of the eldar that passed on would exist in the Infinity Circuit as a gesalt mind, which would be similar to a chorus or chior. Each adds its own individuality to the common whole. A single voice could be singled out from the chior, but as a whole, it is greater than the sum of its parts. The Infinity Circuit could also be used as a great processor of knowledge. If I remember correctly, questions can be ask or put to the members of the infintiy circuit. It would be similar to linking thousands of personal computers to work on a given problem. This has been done successfuly to work on projects such as SETI and mapping the human genome. By linking thousands of personal computers, scientists have been able to solve problems or process data in a fraction of the time that it would take the fastest super computer to run the same calculations. Well 'no reason' is a bit of a strong statement. I can think of numerous reasons that this might have be done. Suffice to say, however, that it would not have been necessary for the survival of the eldar soul to preserve it in an 'Infinity Circuit'. Agreed that they would want to keep the best and the brightest minds available to consult. Imagine if we still had access to such great luminaries as Nichola Tesla, Albert Einstien or Howard Hughes (before he went nuts).
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Post by Kage2020 on May 24, 2004 18:12:31 GMT -5
I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. I doubt that it is superior... Is it a viable means of conducting energy throughout the craft worls and into necessary machines? The 'bone' analogy is used throughout the 'fluff', so yes it's viable both in terms of canonicity and also a reasoned approach. The outter ossified portion of the wraithbone would act as a dense capacitor, with the energy release (probably in pulses) into the central channel that would carry the power throughout the craft world). Well, you'd more likely say that the majority of the 'wraithbone' is maintained by 'nanocells' but is otherwise uninvolved in 'power distribution'. Rather, the vascular system as present in osteons/volkmans canals are. (Remembering the periosteum analogue and the use of nano-architecture, of course.) There should perhaps be wraithbone that does not act as a capacitor. the outer hull of the craftworld should probably be made of this type of wraithbone. Well, this would be the greater majority of the wraithbone. Only those 'vascular' sections would be directly involved in power transmission. As to the outer hull, then one could turn to skin and muscle analogies... Yes, a different type of wraithbone if wraithbone it is. Maybe a different psychoplastic altogether. (Unless we're saying that wraithbone is actually collagen! ) This would create a white noise effect to cancel out the potential hazerdous effects of the high energy particles traveling through the capacitant wraithbone. Which high energy particles are these? It is theorized that intenste electromagentic fields or high frequency energy waves can cause cancer or other defects. And theoretically intense enough EM fields could have a distorting effect upon the natural development of the skeleton, especially in such features as hydroxyapatite nucleation in in inter-collagen fibrils through partially polarised non-collagenous proteanases... Living in a craftworld with wraithbone going everywhere, it would be next to impossible to get away from these high energy fields. We have to be careful that there is some difference between 'warp energy' and 'EM energy'... perhaps? I'm not so sure myself, but there we go... EM energy 'mutates' and so does 'warp energy', but the difference is that they mutate in different ways? Are we ever going to have a GUT for warp/EM energy? ...interestingly if we are going with the idea that craft world eldar may have lower birth rates, perhaps this plays some part in that. Possibly, although I'm more for the nurture answer to that rather than the nature! Is some of the degredation of the sould due to the bleeding together into a greater whole (losing self identity in the mass consiousness)? I hestitate to use the term 'degradation' in reference ot the souls. Rather there are those that choose not to remain separate from the craftworld consciousness and those who, for various reasons, do remain separate. ...if we go with the swiss canton concept (Rule by consensus). That's not quite how the eldar government that I propose works, though one has to question the overt influence of the Ancestors... A single voice could be singled out from the chior, but as a whole, it is greater than the sum of its parts. In the complete opposite phenomenon to that experienced in academic departments. The Infinity Circuit could also be used as a great processor of knowledge. If I remember correctly, questions can be ask or put to the members of the infintiy circuit. For me the IC is a 'soul computer', having both technomantic and mundane processing capacities. So, yes, you could question the IC. This brings into consideration my concept of the "teah-shih" (the eldar 'spirit guide' assigned to each individual at birth), as well as the creation of artificial avatars, etc.... Basically a blending of the cyberpunk imagery along with some of that presented by, erm, Noon I think where it is often difficult to differentiate between 'ectoplasmic' reality and computer generated reality... It would be similar to linking thousands of personal computers to work on a given problem. I would swiftly point out that the IC has computational qualities that are 'separate' - as much as anything can be separate - from the 'soul' qualities... Agreed that they would want to keep the best and the brightest minds available to consult. Well, as long as that soul feels the call to the material world. If not, then it is not in the way of the eldar to stop their passing into the undifferentiated craftworld consciousness and, from there, to the Eternal Matrix. Kage
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Post by Farseer Kythil on Jun 17, 2004 5:42:13 GMT -5
Despite the lateness and possible irrelevance of what will be said, I will continue: In trying to find a power generation method that would be suitably ‘Eldar’, has anyone considered that the Eldar could harness the stored energy that is produced by a collapsed warp core? I hit upon the idea after reading the Eldar Codex to kill some time, it is stated as the method of generating enough power to open a webway portal, so could it not have other applications?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 17, 2004 11:42:18 GMT -5
Yep... only problem there is that we don't have information on what a 'warp core' really is. In lieu of further information... <sigh> GW really needs that proof reader. Or perhaps someone with a memory longer than a few years...
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Post by Farseer Kythil on Jun 18, 2004 8:43:54 GMT -5
Surely the beauty of this situation is that we can define what exactly a warp core is.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 18, 2004 9:12:43 GMT -5
Well, there is that. But I don't see the need given the statements in the 'fluff' about power generation and it being the responsibility of wraithbone. With the alterations to create a holistic intepretation with the 'fluff' in the 2E Codex Eldar we have the potential for diffuse power generation or, if you prefer, localised...
The only advantage of the 'warp core' is that it creates something that players can understand in human terms...
I'm all for diffuse power generation and, given the fact that wraithbone generation integrates with the 'fluff' on the Seers, at present this is the way that it is going to be represented...
Well, unless a really solid reason can be provided why it might be better to work on another idea.
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Post by Farseer Kythil on Jun 21, 2004 2:07:12 GMT -5
Diffuse power generation it is.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 22, 2004 3:38:39 GMT -5
Diffuse power generation it is. <grin> And I thought that other people were good spammers, even if this is OnT! ;D Diffuse power generation might also make sense in some peoples' minds given the origin of the craftworlds themselves, e.g. some people see it as accretion of larger numbers of 'vessels'. Even if they had 'individual' power plants, then it would add up to diffuse power in the long run... Yes, that's pretty hazy but there we go!
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Post by Strygaldwyr on Oct 11, 2004 19:48:38 GMT -5
Wow, you people are all freaks!!!
Only joking, I meant to say Geeks!!! ;D
Sorry couldn't help it. Inspite of feeling intensely stupid/ignorant reading through all your evil techno-babble I thought I would risk looking even more simple by joining in, here goes...
If wraithbone is a carbon polymer and someone mentioned a possible crystal structure type thing, like quartz, could it not have piezo electric properties? Maybe the natural torsion of the ship moving through space/gravity fields/whatever could cause it to produce a charge or explain how it transfers power into mundane tech or something.
(I was thinking as well as warp resonance thing not instead.)
Grief could I sound anymore like a hundred monkeys with typewriters reproducing the works of Shakespeare?
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