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Post by CELS on Jan 5, 2004 10:06:47 GMT -5
CELS to the rescue... I must admit that I have only hazy memories of the ork 'Clans', but seem to recall that they were unsurprisingly predicated upon specific concepts but were ultimately kin/genetically-based... The orks have no kin-based groups in their culture, as GW has portrayed them. This isn't too hard to understand, considering that orks multiply by fungal spores ( ), so it's kind of difficult to keep track of who's the son of who. According to GW, orks are divided into tribes and clans. "Tribes are constantly changeing, breaking apart and reforming, but the clans are constant and enduring. A tribe usually contains Orks from many different clans, and each clan has its own distinct character and identity." The Ork concept of clans don't sound all that different from the Eldar clans. If you can present something that appears to me more interesting than I am more than willing to accept it... LoL! Well, offering criticism was always easier than actually making suggestions... Actually, I can't present anything more interesting, so as I've said before, I'm more than satisfied with your new concept. I'm just offering my thoughts, which you may or may not have use for. Please, CELS. Lets keep the antagonism down to a minimum... Hey, I didn't know there was any in the first place! If my comments have offended you, be sure to let me know. As English is not my native language, I'm sure my answers can be a bit crude sometimes ;D Do you assume that a tatto is a permanent marker? It would seem so. You don't? Hm, cool. So we're not actually talking about scarring the skin? ...With consideration, the body-art would become an obvious part of eldar culture; a somewhat obvious representation of their affiliation. Would there be a reason why this might be taken to a physical form, rather than that inherent in the symbolism of dress, jewellery or whatever? Another point. To humans, a tattoo isn't considered the most civilised way of body decoration. You wouldn't see the Queen of England with a 'Killer Queen' (a song by Queen, btw) tattoo on her arm. The Dark Eldar on the other hand, seem like just the guys to have tattoos. Of course, Eldar culture is quite different from human culture, so tattoos might be perfectly acceptable to them... and the idea of a life-story tattooed on the body does sound rather Eldar. Ties in with the calligraphy of the eastern cultures that Eldar draw so much imagery from. Again, I'm not really opposing your ideas, Kage, I'm just offering my thoughts.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 5, 2004 14:57:13 GMT -5
This isn't too hard to understand, considering that orks multiply by fungal spores ( )... And people wonder why I have a thing against orks... The Ork concept of clans don't sound all that different from the Eldar clans. With the exception that clan is a muteable concept in the above scheme and does in no way indicate certain limited behaviour patters. You don't? Hm, cool. So we're not actually talking about scarring the skin? Nope... I'm also playing around with the potential of mobile tattoos, as it were. It is a sub-dermal implant, but one that is quick, painless and removable. Another point. To humans, a tattoo isn't considered the most civilised way of body decoration. I would think that is an entirely untenable stance to take. Consider ethnographic examples where it is an integral and accepted part of culture. The Iban from Borneo spring to mind... Again, I'm not really opposing your ideas, Kage, I'm just offering my thoughts. I don't mind opposition when it's not in the form "well, that's not what GW says" which you never do anyway. But if a certain idea doesn't find favour then I prefer it when there is an alternative suggestion. That way lies interesting concepts. Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 5, 2004 15:39:38 GMT -5
Would tattoos on an Eldar have a spiritual or personal meaning, or simply to denote allegiance and artistic taste?
Tattoos could in fact be another example of Aspect mental crutches, those mental devices used to rouse the Path training, such as the donning of the helm.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 5, 2004 15:48:30 GMT -5
The 'tattoos' have a number of functions. The above was discussing those that represented Clan affiliation. They do not, however, link in with the Path per se and definitey do not have a 'functional' purpose. As with the Aspect tattoos, they are symbolic. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 5, 2004 19:36:50 GMT -5
I don't mind opposition when it's not in the form "well, that's not what GW says" which you never do anyway. But if a certain idea doesn't find favour then I prefer it when there is an alternative suggestion. That way lies interesting concepts. As I think you've discovered when discussing the various Clans on Portent, coming up with good alternatives to your suggestions on Eldar background is nigh impossible. I'll do my best though. So, trying to be more constructive, tell us how the councils would work together. There are three councils, and the Council of Ancestors seems to work through the Council of Seers (CoS) and Council of Clans (CoC). Do the CoS and CoC have different tasks and areas of interest? Is every Eldar a member of a Clan? Forgive me if you've already answered these questions somewhere. Lots of stuff to keep track on
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2004 6:46:50 GMT -5
As I think you've discovered when discussing the various Clans on Portent, coming up with good alternatives to your suggestions on Eldar background is nigh impossible. I'll do my best though. That's all that anyone can ask. Ultimately it is the job of the 'author' to come up with the ideas, but as I think that Portent has shown - if nothing else - is that kibitzing can be useful... especially 'free' kibitzing. But that's just me being cynical once again. So, trying to be more constructive, tell us how the councils would work together. Essentially the Clan Council is in charge of the day-to-day running of the craftworld. Both the Ancestors and Seers act as advisory councils which, depending on the specific events occurring at the time, shift in importance. The problem is, however, obvious: the question of what the eldar do with their time. If you are to believe GW then all they do is sit around all day meditating... There are three councils, and the Council of Ancestors seems to work through the Council of Seers (CoS) and Council of Clans (CoC). Do the CoS and CoC have different tasks and areas of interest? See the above for the simple answer... Is every Eldar a member of a Clan? Strange as it may seem, I've only just thought about this problem in reference to the eldar in general as opposed to children (who are without Clan or Path). The answer woud be 'no', not every eldar is a member of a Clan. That in itself has some ipotentially interesting ramifications. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 6, 2004 15:19:06 GMT -5
I think that Portent has shown - if nothing else - is that kibitzing can be useful... especially 'free' kibitzing. But that's just me being cynical once again. Kibitzing? Essentially the Clan Council is in charge of the day-to-day running of the craftworld. So they're basically like a human city council. Politicians. Are they elected... democratically? Both the Ancestors and Seers act as advisory councils which, depending on the specific events occurring at the time, shift in importance. The problem is, however, obvious: the question of what the eldar do with their time. If you are to believe GW then all they do is sit around all day meditating... LoL! That, and singing sad songs. What do Eldar do with their time? Hm, well I suppose that not everything is done automatically. They still need teachers, cooks, doctors, factory supervisors (unless they're all using equipment that was made pre-fall, and ammunition for shuriken catapults is carefully picked up after each battle, to be re-used), farm supervisors, the crew of the craftworld itself (maintaining its engine, etc)... they need to recycle water and waste, they need transports to travel around in the craftworld (which need to be maintained and repaired from time to time), they need... a lot of the same stuff that humans need, really. Strange as it may seem, I've only just thought about this problem in reference to the eldar in general as opposed to children (who are without Clan or Path). The answer woud be 'no', not every eldar is a member of a Clan. That in itself has some ipotentially interesting ramifications. I imagine that some Rangers might be without a Clan, but otherwise it seems that choosing a Clan is similar to choosing a political party (but far more important), and that all adult Eldar would be expected to join a Clan.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2004 20:31:27 GMT -5
Kibitzing? While not exclusively American, I presume, it was introduced to me by them when (many moons ago) I was involved superficially with the development of an RPG. Ideas-bashing, think-tanking... whatever you want to call it! So they're basically like a human city council. Politicians. Are they elected... democratically? One thing that is important, for me, about the eldar is the individual assumption of responsibility as moderated by 'subconscious' approval from ones peers and more peripherally from both the Ancestors and the Eternal Matrix. Something as an ephemeral feeling of 'rightness'. Thus with the individuals that follow the Path of the Steward... These are the individuals who have, in the past, followed the Path of the Outcast. They have experienced the outer universe unlike those that remained on the craftworld and, as such, have knowledge of its practices, the people that live within it, and so on. This is important when one considers the longevity and unique perspective of the eldar... The Outcast serves to ground them. Thus all Clan 'chiefs' were also Outcasts... But, yes, they are basically the same as a human council but with advice (sometimes strong, sometimes otherwise) from the Ancestor and Seer Council. If one wanted to make a bad analogy which I'll probably regret later on, the Clan Council is the body and the Seer Council the 'mind'. The Ancestor Clan is both soul and consciousness... ...factory supervisors (unless they're all using equipment that was made pre-fall, and ammunition for shuriken catapults is carefully picked up after each battle, to be re-used... The manufacture of such material in the original RT days was automated and even with the introduction of WD127 and the information on the 'ancestors', I do not see this as necessarily out-dated. ...the crew of the craftworld itself (maintaining its engine... If you're to believe the awful light sail 'fluff' then there would be no engine per se... ...they need to recycle water and waste... The joys of nanotechnology... they need transports to travel around in the craftworld (which need to be maintained and repaired from time to time), they need... a lot of the same stuff that humans need, really. The majority of which is automated through the Infinity Circuit... I imagine that some Rangers might be without a Clan, but otherwise it seems that choosing a Clan is similar to choosing a political party (but far more important), and that all adult Eldar would be expected to join a Clan. I would agree with you... but here's a thing. Personally I have never 'chosen' a political party. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 6, 2004 21:07:14 GMT -5
They have experienced the outer universe unlike those that remained on the craftworld and, as such, have knowledge of its practices, the people that live within it, and so on. This is important when one considers the longevity and unique perspective of the eldar... The Outcast serves to ground them. This makes sense from our point of view, but I always thought the Eldar almost shunned the Outcasts. Hence their name. The manufacture of such material in the original RT days was automated and even with the introduction of WD127 and the information on the 'ancestors', I do not see this as necessarily out-dated. Well, it seems that with all this stuff being done by the infinity circuit and the tiny spiders, most of the Eldar will spend their time drinking the legendary Eldar wine and singing songs of lament (aka Path of the AA) Seriously, I guess that's just what the Eldar do, they devote their time to philosophy, making art, reading, singing and dancing. I would agree with you... but here's a thing. Personally I have never 'chosen' a political party. That is why I stressed that this was a similar, but far more important thing. And I don't know about the UK, but in Norway it is pretty much considered a citizen's duty to select a political party (of course, no one gives a flying fiddle anyway). I assume it would be the same thing for Eldar, and that it would be outrageous for an Eldar to not choose a 'political party' (Your 'in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only politics'-saying has set its mark on me, it seems)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 7, 2004 8:04:25 GMT -5
This makes sense from our point of view, but I always thought the Eldar almost shunned the Outcasts. Hence their name. Shunning does not mean that they did not serve a valid purpose. They have dropped the official trappings of the Path and, in so doing, ironically taken a different (but more dangerous) route down that Path. This is more in terms of exposure and the lack of inherent focus, but that is about all. Well, it seems that with all this stuff being done by the infinity circuit and the tiny spiders, most of the Eldar will spend their time drinking the legendary Eldar wine and singing songs of lament (aka Path of the AA) And in the practice of Path or Way there is lattitude that the 'normal' (or at least what people would ascribe as 'normal', i.e. work) can also be performed. It is, however, a matter of choice. Seriously, I guess that's just what the Eldar do, they devote their time to philosophy, making art, reading, singing and dancing. And the performance of Path/Way activities as well as Clan... something to give them meaning and purpose. That was the overall goal anyway. And I don't know about the UK, but in Norway it is pretty much considered a citizen's duty to select a political party (of course, no one gives a flying fiddle anyway). Same here. I'm just far more cynical. Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 8, 2004 12:01:34 GMT -5
How likely is it to find an Eldar who is cynical about his own kind?
Are they generally very egocentric and 'patriotic' or do many tend to view such sentiments rather dryly?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 9, 2004 8:21:15 GMT -5
That's actually I good question and had me stumped for a while... How about the standard answer that even eldar culture would experience a wide gamut of social thought? Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 9, 2004 10:43:10 GMT -5
Indeed, all of the Eldar whose opinions we get in the fluff tend to be of a militaristic leaning; in a similar vein to present-day Earth, those patriots *tend* to view it as their duty to serve if necessary.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 9, 2004 18:04:31 GMT -5
<grin> Ah, 'patriots'. Always an amusing concept... All the eldar, for me, have a sense of responsibility to their society not just those that take up arms in defence of the craftworlds and all eldar 'territories'... Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 10, 2004 5:09:35 GMT -5
Well, true, but those not so keen on the common Aspect and Seer attitude of 'kill everything because we have the right' would avoid it where possible and let the more dedicated Guardian levy go and do the fighting before they, would they not?
Incidentally, how is a Guardian contingent chosen from the population? Volunteers? Random selection?
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