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Post by Dazo on Mar 23, 2005 8:09:35 GMT -5
Yep that seems to be something of a concensus, though I still see no reason why the super structure cant be started else where and finished of at the forge world. I know the arguments about trade and how prolifict it is or isn't but warship consruction would demand priority in the Imperium.
I've also started a thread about this on the black library site aswell, it seems the general belief out there is the the imperium doesn't really build that many new ships, they just salvage and repair the ships they already have.
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Post by Zholud on Mar 23, 2005 8:54:42 GMT -5
I guess it worth comparing the Imperium with the Great Britain and France in 1870-1900. This was a period when fleets shifted from sails to steam engines. This led to massive costs increase. The relative peace during the period led to very long-time construction for a single warship – from 7 to 15 years for some of them. Compare that with later history, when Germany started to catch up the Britain – ships were built in 1-3 years! Thus while the Imperium usually constructs ship for a century this is because there are more urgent things to do. If it needs it can make a ship within a decade or less if you give enough funds for that. I’ll dig my materials on BFG, but I recall that ships were made in decades and by not a Forge world. Quotes to follow.
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Post by Zholud on Mar 23, 2005 13:38:23 GMT -5
The fastest built ship most likely was Imperial Hawking Class Exploration Cruiser: The Hawking Class dates from the time the legendary crusades of Lord Solar Macharius. The original Hawking was a hastily constructed vessel, designed to range ahead of Macharius’ main battlefleet and search the Halo Stars for enemy fleets and new worlds to conquer.From this piece we can see that ship was designed, constructed and added to the fleet after the start of the Macharius Crusade. How long has it lasted from the very start? Answer is 7 years. Thus a cruiser, if necessary is build maybe in 5 years or even less! p.s. Hudraphyr mentioned several times as warship builder (not only repair) and the world is not a Forge World for sure…
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Post by CELS on Mar 23, 2005 13:40:54 GMT -5
So the bottleneck is usually money, not capacity. We're then left to speculate the economic system of forgeworlds. (Damn, this just got more complicated than I wanted it to be! I mean, what kind of economy do forgeworlds have? What does it help Proteus if Anargo sends them a check with 1,000,000,000,000 Imperial denarii? Who are they paying? Sojourner seems to suggest that the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't funded by the Imperium, because of the whole 'semi-independent organisation' thing. But in my opinion, one shouldn't take that too far. I don't really see the forgeworlds having to buy stuff from Imperial worlds, or vice versa. Considering the power of the Adeptus Mechanicus, you don't want them regulating prices. If they wanted to triple the prices for Titans, who would stop them? Who would compete with that offer? Nope, I think a part of the whole 'Aptus Non' deal is that the forgeworlds don't pay tithes, but they have to do a certain amount of work for free, in return for a certain amount of material resources. Kinda like the Soviet Union, I think. So, if it's not a question of currency, then it's simply a question of resources. And as long as the Imperium was able to give the forgeworlds enough ore and metals and whatever, they'd keep making ships. Hmph... but I guess this is really a question for an expert on economy. Considering that I don't know how Imperial economy would work, or even how 'real life' economy works, I guess my suggestions should be taken lightly.
In regards to the old background material from Rogue Trader days, Philip, we have already decided that we will not be conforming to the idea of an Imperium where only the Imperium owns starships. And note the difference between 'star ships' (warp capable) and 'space ships' (system ships, not capable of warp travel). This is old ground, and has been discussed before. Check out the older threads if you're not familiar with these decisions.
And lastly, thanks Zholud for that BFG quote. We now know that star ships, even cruisers, can be built extremely fast. It is just a question of currency and/or material resources.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 23, 2005 14:47:40 GMT -5
Repairs... On ships the size of those in the Imperium, and demanding the resources that they do in production, it is a no-brainer to assume that they will be repaired in preference to recycling or the construction of new vessels. Remember that, given the estimates of 'expense' utilising GURPS (which is used merely as a guideline; the price can be modified), even our arbitrary "smallest economically feasible ship" has a stupendous cost. Ship Production, Forge Worlds and ASP Convention... The restriction of the prouction of warp-capable ships (hithertoforth and henceforth (! ) starships) to Forge Worlds is an ASP convention to restrict the production of starships. At present there are only two "Class A" (the required level for starship production) starports in the Anargo sector: Anargo Secundus and Proteus. At present it is also currently assumed that Proteus does not have a significant starship-producing infrastructure... Ship Construction Times... As AncientAsirnoth reminds people on the BL forum, a Lunar Class took eleven years to construct around a feudal/medieval world without a significant infrastructure. A piece of daft 'fluff', perhaps? I'm now going to do the whole quote thing... They're going to operate on the same broad principle as other worlds of the Imperium. The assumption is that there is a great deal of 'tithe' input into the Forge World that is subsequently utilised to 'balance' the output tithe to the Imperium. That they might engage in the 'free trade' with the other worlds of the Imperium is also assumed. The question remained as to whether the whole GT:FT included the tithe or was exclusive of it. In essence this is a tithe, or at least operates as such. That is true. It 'owns' the greater majority of starships, but that still leaves a rather large number of civil ships. As we have discussed in the past. Kage
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Post by Dazo on Mar 23, 2005 14:59:20 GMT -5
Hydraphur is owned lock stock and barrel by the fleet, so it would make sense for them to have repair and construction facilities. And I agree with your soviet analogy cels, I think that is exactly how forge worlds would operate, indeed It actually seems that money as we veiw it would be redundant in the imperium, at least on a macro level of inter-planetary trade. Well thats the thing none of us do, even after several attemps to pin it down Really, why, it is a forge world, and it is quite old so how come they don't have starship building capability. Maybe, but if they were'nt faffing around like the mechanicus do with daft bloody rituals then 11 years might not be as daft as it sounds.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 23, 2005 16:06:03 GMT -5
Please note that when I suggested 20-40 years I was "laughed at"... Kage
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Post by DesertGhostExarch on Mar 23, 2005 17:09:42 GMT -5
A piece of daft 'fluff', perhaps? That was my assumption when I mentioned it. It was just a sort of "shock to the system" sort of detail to pick out a specifically mentioned construction time. Of course, as I mentioned on the BL forum, many details of the construction and life of that specific Lunar class vessel seem to be left to the imagination (one has to seriously question the quality of materials considering the source, for example, and if one follows the logic that the Mechanicus is required for warp drives or even warship propulsion, they're going to have to be involved somewhere irregardless of that world's infrastructure). So, I'd say it's just something to keep in mind. It is a bit daft that a feral world (assuming your typical factionalized tribal inhabitants of your stereotypical feral world, which isn't particularly fair as that's probably not the criteria for classification as a "feral" world) of all places would be capable of building an Imperial warship. But that's just my opinion of that matter....
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Post by CELS on Mar 23, 2005 17:43:07 GMT -5
Proteus does not have the infrastructure to produce starships? Erm... what!? Considering... well, the history of Proteus and the Anargo sector, I'm going to say.... what!? Anyway. Yes, I agree that forgeworlds do have a form of tithes, though they are not regulated by the Imperial tithe system. We are left to guess what kind of arrangement they really have, since the tithe system is apparently not appropriate. Probably because they still work with arrangements from the ancient pacts signed by the Emperor, which are... special. As for the 20-40 years, Kage - I just thought it sounded a bit strange, and I still do. But then, the Imperium is ever a strange place...
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 23, 2005 18:42:36 GMT -5
Considering... well, the history of Proteus and the Anargo sector, I'm going to say.... what!? Last time I understood things Proteus did not engage in ship building on any large scale. Kage
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 24, 2005 0:35:03 GMT -5
Well, it seems that CELS has written the fact that Proteus engages in "significant" production of ships. To say that I was a tad peeved at first is an understatement since there were a number of reasons that Anargo subsector was to be the main source of 'new' starships. First and foremost amongst those was that it created a 'mechanic' by which new ships could be restricted and therefore doing nodding justice to the 'fluff', which will not entirely sensible on this matter is still... well... the 'fluff'. Secondly it created another reason - other than the crossroads idea - why Anargo should be an economically important subsector and 'worthy' of the capital... That and it was pretty much stated from the get-go.
I'm pretty much getting used to being creative in the face of adversity, so perhaps this... redefinition... of some of the original ideas might be useful? Anargo Secundus was also originally slated as the main Fleet HQ so perhaps the majority of the construction that goes on there is military while Proteus covers other types of ship? I don't want to say Merchant and Civil, so perhaps just 'civil'? It's influence can be much wider in that regard than the scope of a single sector considered with Anargo Secundus...
And just a reminder: Anargo Secundus is the major source of warp-capable starships in the sector. It is also the 'new' Forgeworld, an off-shoot of Proteus.
Kage
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Post by Dazo on Mar 24, 2005 4:12:42 GMT -5
Yes but Proteus is a single world, a forge world but still only one world. Anargo is a Prime world with a forge world slaved to it, so it seems highly reasonable that that kind of power would make it a prime candidate for the capitol, not because it builds starships. So you both your worlds can build them, but Anargo is going to have far more grunt in terms of economics and production.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 24, 2005 4:41:44 GMT -5
I would guess that construction time would vary hugely depending on who's building. If it's under the direct jurisdiction of the fleet, it isn't going to take anywhere near as long as the Admech's mumbo-jumbo. I would also venture to say that Fleet-built ships might well be far more 'sensible' in their design specifics such as automation, life support systems, fire suppression and so on, being built by those really 'in the know' about such things.
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Post by Tynesh on Mar 24, 2005 7:23:19 GMT -5
On the building of the Lunar class crusier during the Gothic War...
...The forced the population into building it. It was not a project conducted in 'spare time'. Also the piece of fluff suggests that all the feral/feudal population did was mine ores and then deliver them to temples to the Emperor. From there the ore was taken into orbit to make the ship.
It doesnt suggest any ancillary support that may have been present. Maybe an AdMech Forgeship or flotilla capable of providing all the processing and construction tech for the build. In my opinion the location of the world may have been in a relatively safe location free from Chaos attack. Planets in the Gothic Sector with production capabilities would have been prime targets.
It seems a very AdMech thing to do, run away from danger with the items needed to build ships, find a safe yet productive world. Coerce the population into providing vast supplies of metal ores over the eleven year period and soon enought they built a bog standard run of the mill cruiser.
The population would mine like crazy so not to incur the rath of the Emperor, due to the low level of culture/tech/society most people would be avaliable for work in the mines etc. You wouldn't lose workers to boredom, depression or the new hi-tech service industry that has just opened a call-centre round the corner from your hut.
It seems a highly plausible effort IMHO
Cheers
Tynesh
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 24, 2005 9:49:15 GMT -5
Quite. How many people in the United States work in shipyards, compared to how many could work in shipyards if they weren't seeing to people's spare-time desires?
Forgeworlds however are just this extreme example. You work for the Admech in the factories. You sleep when you're told, eat when you're told, and I very much doubt there's much in the way of recreation besides drugs to keep one passive.
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