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Post by CELS on Mar 20, 2005 9:00:10 GMT -5
How long does it take to construct the different ships in the Imperium, anyway? On one hand, we have reason to believe that constructing ships takes an absolutely fantastic amount of resources. Kage has provided estimates from GURPS suggesting that it would take centuries, if not millennia for a world to construct a single ship. Yet, Minister's list over ships in the Anargo suggests that most of these ships were constructed within the last three millennia. And that's a good amount of ships. Add the fact that a bunch of ships have probably been destroyed as well, and... well...
I'm not sure; Does the GW fluff and fiction show that ships are often lost in wars? Or are space engagements very rare, and the loss of a single ship a tragedy of tremendous importance?
I think we need to reach a compromise between our 'wargame logic' and the estimates suggesting that the Anargo sector should only have a handful of military ships, and maybe even fewer civil ships.
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Post by malika on Mar 20, 2005 14:52:50 GMT -5
GW background is kind of very weird on this, on one hand we have millions of battles in which many troops and resources are lost, and they keep fighting over and over again.
And on the other hand we have this 'fact' that technology is very rare to reproduce.
If we were to follow this logic we would conclude that the Imperium is very rapidly running out of resources such as Space Ships, Titans, Dreadnoughts, Terminator Suits. However, the number of Space Marines has grown quite a lot. I mean just after the Horus Heresy there were about 300.000 loyal marines(a very inaccurate estimation) and now there are about 1.000.000 marines. They need to have Dreadnoughts and Terminator suits. Which means the Imperium is able to produce them and in a relatively rapid way.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 20, 2005 22:19:51 GMT -5
On one hand, we have reason to believe that constructing ships takes an absolutely fantastic amount of resources. Kage has provided estimates from GURPS suggesting that it would take centuries, if not millennia for a world to construct a single ship. That's not strictly correct. The estimate provided of for a small ship was, indeed, something like 5% of the "Gross World Product" of a single world. But we're not talking about the resources or 'finances' of a single world when dealing with Imperial ships. If anything, it is the 'fluff' that suggests a long period for the construction of ships...? Add the fact that a bunch of ships have probably been destroyed as well, and... well... The 'cost' of a ship is hugely significant, true. But did anyone really question that it would be so? That it should be otherwise? But one also has to remember that the cost is borne out not just by a single world, nor necessarily even a single subsector or perhaps sector. Rather, these costs are borne out by the Imperium itself. I'm not sure; Does the GW fluff and fiction show that ships are often lost in wars? The general rule in 40k 'fluff' seems to be that if they wish to show another race as being powerful, or something as being powerful, then the 'tough' things are the first to buy the farm. Fancy showing how powerful Tyranids are? Simple: say that a Company of Marines was massacred by them... Blah blah, etc., etc. It's a fair enough thing to do, if a tad on the simple side, but then again GW are incredibly successful at what they do! Or are space engagements very rare, and the loss of a single ship a tragedy of tremendous importance? A lost ship is going to be of importance anyway. But your real question seems to be, "How long and how difficult is it for Anargo to get a replacement?" For the answer to that we must turn to the 'fluff' since the chances are that it would be much, much longer than one might guestimate for the real world. But as a rough estimate? A Gothic is most likely going to take something like 2-4 decades to construct. And that's without monkeying around with adeptus mechanicus protocols. I think we need to reach a compromise between our 'wargame logic' and the estimates suggesting that the Anargo sector should only have a handful of military ships, and maybe even fewer civil ships. The estimates do not suggest that there should be a handful of ships, just that they are darned expensive things! The Imperium cannot replace a line-ship in a blink of an eye... Heck, the fastest method is to pull a ship from another sector as a temporary measure. Kage
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Post by CELS on Mar 21, 2005 8:44:38 GMT -5
20 years to construct a cruiser!? Well, I am glad that I was wrong about GURPS, and that such a compromise will be easier to reach, but 20-40 years is a bit too short, I think. It's just that when you consider their size, complexity... Considering how long it takes to construct power armour and terminator armour... Perhaps it could take 20-40 years, but actually takes a century or two because of all the crazy rituals and ceremonies. So how often does Proteus and Anargo Secondus construct a new space ship? On one hand you have the fluff where a single chaos cruiser can take out three Imperial cruisers in a single battle of a war, suggesting that many more cruisers would be destroyed in that war, and on the other hand you have the fluff where most Imperial ships are ancient creations. Basically, what I'm asking is whether or not the lists of ships in the archive and the Proteus appendix look right. Before, I was afraid that the lists gave the impression that ships were constructed too often. Now I'm worried that they give the impression that ships are constructed too rarely. Oh, and we need an accurate estimate of how expensive ships are. If our calculations give us ships that are too cheap, that would suggest there is another mechanism regulating the number of ships. Administratum licenses, for example.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 21, 2005 19:30:25 GMT -5
20 years to construct a cruiser!? That's a horrendously low estimate, hence my reason for saying that one would have to turn to the 'fluff' for an answer. Unfortuately I don't know of any RPGs or other game universes beyond one that discusses the construction time of a ship. The only thing that springs to mind is a hazy recollection of Star Trek in which case a ship of 600m (ish) took around 5 years to construct. That's around 25 years for 3,000m. 40k, however, is that period and upwards... Well, I am glad that I was wrong about GURPS, and that such a compromise will be easier to reach, but 20-40 years is a bit too short, I think. Try not to think of my use of GURPS as a 'restriction', but rather a framework of interpretation when said framework is lacking elsewhere. If it doesn't suit the 40k universe, or something better can be constructed, I'll discard it where necessary. (With that said I don't see the point of designing everything form the ground up in a 'direct conversion'... I'll leave that to WFRP-ites or people who feel it necessarry to create something 'original' rather than functional. ) Considering how long it takes to construct power armour and terminator armour... Hence my statement about turning to the 'fluff'. But with what you are saying, is it really GURPS that is offering the huge timescale or is it actually the 'fluff'? Does the price/construction in GURPS merely suggest another reason beyond the traditional "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach? But, yes, construction times will be a problem regardless. So how often does Proteus and Anargo Secondus construct a new space ship? Perhaps the question would be best, "How many space docks do we wish to have?" How about three docks capable of producing Cruisers or smaller? More for smaller ships, of course...? Before, I was afraid that the lists gave the impression that ships were constructed too often. Now I'm worried that they give the impression that ships are constructed too rarely. Which is why I like this thread! I'm going to go with the fact that they are constructed... <darn, keyboard has broken> Oh, and we need an accurate estimate of how expensive ships are. If our calculations give us ships that are too cheap, that would suggest there is another mechanism regulating the number of ships. Administratum licenses, for example. One possible way of achieving this is by 'scaling' using another game universe which includes this information. Use the value of $5,000M for a 3,000 t d ship and then take the ratios to the different 'classes' and see how that goes? I'll post the calculations for you so that you can see whether they are relevant or not, too high or whatever? Kage
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Post by Dazo on Mar 22, 2005 4:08:35 GMT -5
Lets not forget people that a single world does not bear the entire cost nor indeed the labour of an entire ship. Alot of the parts needed for ship construction would be manufatured on other worlds, the world with the construction yard would then simply have to bolt these peices on, which I imagine would cut production times. The rate of ship loss in the imperium(working on your figures) would massively exceed the rate of production.
And startrek is far more advanced in terms of technology so comparisons should be avoided, ships are replicated more than fabricated.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 22, 2005 5:26:10 GMT -5
I daresay building the superstructure shouldn't take too long - applying the principles of the timeframe of a skyscraper, possibly. Multiply the size up to 3km and the time accordingly.
The time-intensive bit is the fitting, testing and bringing up to trial readiness. It wouldn't surprise me if every warp drive was custom-built at least partially on-site to cater for the particulars of the design, for example.
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Post by Zholud on Mar 22, 2005 9:53:29 GMT -5
I guess it is possible to build the ship within a few decades. The really limiting factor is finance and necessity to spend on other projects. This returns us to the question – how large is the tithe in percent of GWP and how it is distributed/spent. One of the question – on which level i.e. planet/system/sub/sector/segment/Imperium the tithe is spend. E.g. if 99% of tithe remains on planet (Cathedral building which is financed by tithe according to the fluff; Imperium conclave, etc), most likely there is not enough funds to build the ship.
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Post by Dazo on Mar 22, 2005 11:01:38 GMT -5
But would not the actual construction be spread across several worlds, maybe in the same system, maybe not, either way it would prevent one single world from bearing the full brunt of the cost of the ship. And if the ship parts were part of the tithe for several worlds that would again mitigate the cost.
Anyway isn't anargo the only world in the sector that actually builds ships.
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Post by Philip on Mar 22, 2005 11:21:02 GMT -5
This may be an over simplification, but don’t Forge Worlds build all the Starships?
Aren’t Forge Worlds funded by the Imperium?
As a guess I would imagine that the tithes the Imperium extracts from worlds may be in the form of materials to supply Forge Worlds which then builds all the stuff the Imperium needs.
As for timescale, at least a 100 years probably much more, but a Forge World could be building several at once, each part of the build handled by a different team to form a very large production line.
Maybe there are Ad-Mec sub-divisions: one for building Starship super-structures, one for skinning, one for fitting, one for warp-drive etc.
The orbital production line could run the entire circumference of the Forge World.
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Post by Dazo on Mar 22, 2005 11:34:16 GMT -5
I think it might well be a gross oversimplification...but I actualy agree with you. Forge worlds should be taking the strain when it comes to things like star ships, which I think they could build far more rapidly than you all seem to be giving them credit for. They would probably be working on maybe 10 at a time, but with most of the mundane parts like hull plating, super structure frames and the like being manufactured on industrial worlds.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 22, 2005 12:32:00 GMT -5
Er...no? Adeptus Mechanicus? Semi-independent body?
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 22, 2005 20:50:16 GMT -5
We hadn't! This is the problem with 'interstellar trade' in general, and one has to question where one draws the line. Would it be cheaper to produce the materials locally and the integrate locally? The assumton is that 'interstellar trade' is possible and, indeed, necessary and as such what Daz0 says probably applies more readily... Although this bit is unlikely. I don't think systems integration is simply just a matter of plugging it all together. It is done later with another examples, so don't jump on it for no reason, Daz0. As mentioned it was used to produce a bare minimum (ish) in terms of construction time. In that regard it is useful even, as such you say, it is technologically more advanced. (Although it wasn't 'replicated', even though some components are... so sayeth my old Trekkie housemate.) Any values for that, Sojourner? Three years and more for the construction of a skyscraper is about all that I could find on the quick search that I did... At this jucntur that is probably getting too detailed. [/b] But would not the actual construction be spread across several worlds, maybe in the same system, maybe not... [/quote] It is true that multi-world systems are not factored into the GT:FT economy system that is currently being advocated (too early to actually use until "At a Glance" is completed). Not entirely sure that it is going to make a difference unless you take the approach where you have multiple hiveworlds or somesuch... Anargo Secundus, a 'new Forgeworld' that is indeed factored around the construction of starships. Otherworlds construct spaceships, though. Personally I restrict the construction of starships to the Forge Worlds, yes, and then only some of the Forgeworlds. Such is the 'fluff' with variable specialised productions... They are worlds of the Imperium and have an 'inwards' tithe, but that doesn't mean that they are funded by them. That is an overtly simplistic approach which sees them merely as the 'producers' for the Imperium. Kind of like people tend to see Bonesingers, but that's an aside! Kage
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Post by Dazo on Mar 23, 2005 6:54:10 GMT -5
No not hive worlds specifically, but if the main world was an advanced civilised world with plenty of resources, and there were industrial and mining worlds in the same system then it would certainly make the job easier would it not. Rather than moving parts through interstellar space your only moving to another world in the same system.
In Fact I would hypothesise that any world dedicated to starship production would also have all the other worlds in the system directed to support that world in every way possible.
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Post by Philip on Mar 23, 2005 7:57:45 GMT -5
Well browsing Critical hit’s background section here it seems that; Forge Worlds (implied) make all of the warp capable Starships whether Imperial or privately owned, and all interstellar shipping is run by the Imperium. The vast majority of space craft in the Imperium aren’t warp capable. I guess anyone [planet] could make these, they will be much smaller and relatively simple compared to a warp capable ship. So two types of ship yard, and two types of space ship.
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