|
Post by TheGlyphstone on Jan 6, 2005 10:58:02 GMT -5
One of the parts of Space Marine "fluff" that I've always found dubious was the bit about Space Marines being able to eat brains and decipher memories from them. Could there be any sort of scientific fact behind this, or is it just a sci-fi "cool" thing?
Moving on, how sensitive would such an ability be? Would they be able to read whole memories, bits and pieces, even extracting which memories they want to know? Could they read alien brains?
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jan 6, 2005 11:12:11 GMT -5
Personally, I have no idea how this would work, since memories extremely complex. To unlock information from memories, you might need the large parts of the brain to be intact. I don't think this part of the background make sense. Does the Space Marine just taste a little bit and go "Well, his grandmother's name is Maria. That's not very useful, is it? I'll have to try again... mmm.... when he was seven, his pet grox was hit by a land speeder. Hm. Better have another bite."
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jan 6, 2005 11:16:01 GMT -5
"..And when he was ten he walked in on his mother...WHAT? Emperor's teeth, that's disgusting. I can't believe I'm eating this..."
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 6, 2005 11:34:16 GMT -5
I think this come from the rather dodgy idea of genetic memory, which comes from the idea that people/ animals have a hardwired propensity to develop certain instincts which affect behaviour.
There is no way ‘memory eating’ could work in our universe, but in 40K I wouldn’t be so sure;
The memories could be contained in the matrix of the wrap sig, and when the marine eats the brains there could be a part of the marines ‘taste buds’ (or some other sensor) that can a catch glimpse of the warp sig as the brain dies, and allows the marine to see fleeting visions. These visions would be remembered by the marine through the natural processes.
On the plus side, this idea mean the marine isn’t contaminated by alien DNA floating about which I think is a good thing.
;D
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Jan 6, 2005 12:00:54 GMT -5
Generally, it seems now that getting memories from dead brain is as impossible as geting image of murderer from victim's retina. However, from some sources I've read ideas that body has own memory in terms of semi-inconsious movements, which could be read from body after death. I recall in Space Marine aspirants ate 'savages and the protagonist even felt himself pregnant woman. So, it's rule of cool, similar to spitting acid by SMs...
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jan 6, 2005 14:40:51 GMT -5
You're refering to the Omophagea. correct?
Below is the fluff relating to this organ.
This complicated implant becomes part of the brain, but is actually situated within the spinal cord between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae. Four nerve sheaths called neuroglia are implanted between the spine and the Preomnor wall. The Omophagea is designed to absorb genetic material generated in animal tissue as a function of memory, experience or innate ability.
A Marine can actually learn by eating. Incidentally, it is the presence of this organ which has created the various flesh and blood drinking rituals for which the Marines are famous, as well as giving the names to Chapters such as the Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers etc.
I think this organ grew out of the old superstitious beleifs of eating the heart ( or other parts) of your enemy in order to gain his strenght. This is a bit nebulous, since it does not go into what skills or knowledge a Marine can learn from the implant.
There is the distinct possibility that memory is stored chemically. The different chemical solutions in the body cause the neurons to fire in a specific manner which allows us to retrieve memories from a given segment of our brain.
Trying to access those memories without knowing the particular chemical sequence that caused it to be retrieved would be like trying to hack a computer when you didn't know the passwords. I leave it up to the rule of cool.
There is a part of this organ though, that might be possible. This is the accessing of innate abilities (instinctual abilities). Almost like spider man acquiring spidey senses, strength and agility of a spider from the bite of a radioactive spider. It could be that the hard wire responses of the predator could be retrieved from the gentic matrix and incorporated into the matrix of the Omophagea.
It could be that the Omophagea serves sort of like an instinct brain or a subbrain. Normally nerve impulses travel from a given organ or limb to the brain even in what is termed "muscle memory" (see muscle memory explanation below)
"kinesthetic memory" or "neuro-muscular facilitation" the combining of sensory input (what you see with your eyes) with motor output (what you do with your body) During practice or training your muscles aren't really memorizing anything (all memories are stored in your brain). Instead,the repetative motions cause the associated nerve-muscle connections to gradually become more effective (the transmission of the signals from the brain to the muscle become more effective).
By having a sub brain, the distance that nerve impulses would need to travel would be much shorter, meaning that response to would be that much quicker. This may help to explain the lightning reflexes of the Space Marines compared to base genetic stock humans.
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Jan 6, 2005 15:43:03 GMT -5
It could be that the Omophagea serves sort of like an instinct brain or a subbrain. However, this cannot give way for example in already mentioned Space Marine novel. After eating (brain? I cannot recall for sure), the marine gets flashback as he (in memories she) runs from demons from the sky (IIRC Marines that killed her). It is too far from instinct or muscular memory. So we just have to say whether we buy it or not, I guess… During practice or training your muscles aren't really memorizing anything (all memories are stored in your brain). Instead,the repetative motions cause the associated nerve-muscle connections to gradually become more effective (the transmission of the signals from the brain to the muscle become more effective). and consumption of such nerves (within meat) gives ability to emulate them… it can be a way to go. However, I was more about memories not skill and I think we should link it to soul concept. In 40k-verse of soul I mean… or even living energy, consumed by C’tan.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jan 6, 2005 15:57:01 GMT -5
Let's face it... Space Marine is a very old novel and the author isn't exactly the best-selling author in Black Library. If what I've heard about this novel is true, then we should just disregard this.
Not everything in the fluff is equally brilliant. Sometimes you have to just turn a blind eye.
|
|
|
Post by Sikkukkut on Jan 6, 2005 21:25:19 GMT -5
I'd always assumed that this was inspired by a famous old experiment involving flatworms. Scientists taught a flatworm to negotiate a maze and get to food, then killed it, mashed it up and fed it to several other flatworms. When those worms were put in the maze they all were able to follow it too, first time with no errors.
(This experiment was later cast into doubt when it turned out the team hadn't changed the water in the maze before putting the new worms in, raising the possibility that they simply followed the strongest scent trail and found the food that way.)
Anyway, I still quite like the idea of Marines gaining knowledge by eating brains. I'm not keen on Philip's idea of the warp-trace thing, though: I always thought that the neuroglottis was tuned with scrupulous care to taste and interpret the chemical traces laid down in brain cells that are associated with the formation of memories. The fact that these would be scrambled by the trauma of extraction and digestion would mean that the memories would be incomplete and hazy, and careful training would be needed to make proper use of them. Eating a heretic officer's brain would be no substitute for swiping the deployment map out of his pocket.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2005 21:41:52 GMT -5
It is, in essence, magic. One of the GW writers probably read an article on it and thought "Hey, way cool!" and that was it. We've all done it. It's one of those things that I tend to ignore insofar that when represented in an RPG it is not an active ability, but rather something that acts like normal precognition... You do not ask questions, but are occasionally shown fragmentary images depending upon the 'age' of the tissue in question. It is nothing that we have to worry about here.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jan 8, 2005 9:44:20 GMT -5
Hmm...I've always hated the rule of cool. I've had another thought with regards to how the Omophagea may work. I'll be the first to admit that it sounds weird, but bear with me.
Are all of you familiar with the term psychometry? It is the ability to read the history of objects by holding the object in your hand or placing it to your forehead. In certain cases, the psychometrist can pick up feelings, impressions or images from people as well...sort of like in the television show "The Dead Zone" (Based on the book by Stephen King).
This ability is thought to originate in a specific part of the brain. What if the Omophagea is cloned material of this region of the brain from someone with the ability to scry (read impressions from objects or people).
Since this ability is not inherant within a Marine himself, but is more like a grafted on ability, the Omophagea probably can not access information from an object by touch. It therefore becomes necessary for the Marine to injest the object (in this case biomatter) in order for the Omophagea to have access to the protiens that make up the substance...which it can then read.
This actually opens up a whole new can of worms with regards to cloning in general and the cloning of psykers specifically. Would the abilities of a psyker carry through to a clone? Is it only "hardware" (biological) or is their a "software" (like an Avatar in MtA) componet which allows a psyker to access the warp?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 8, 2005 11:20:30 GMT -5
Ah yes, the concept of the 'mana organ' has been raised... GW, as with other fantsy games, maintains that it is a genetic component that predisposes an individual to mag... psychic ability, even if the component is not in some way 'awakened'. This means that quite literally they could clone psykers if they hve the technology to clone humans, which given the other technologies employed by the adeptus mechanicus including their regenerative technologies would not be particularly surprising. Of course, many people would just throw out the overly common 'bludgeon' to this of "Hey, they just haven't found that STC yet!" but I think that the majority of us know that is complete (or almost complete) bunk... I would be wary about transcribing the MtA avatar per se into the 40k universe, even if I do model some of the higher psyker powers with Mage Spheres.
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jan 8, 2005 11:24:19 GMT -5
Psychic ability in the genes? Partially, but not totally IMO. Having the right genes doesn't necessarily grant you any psychic ability whatsoever. All it does is make you susceptible to developing psychic ability. It's more to do with the layout of the brain, but a certain combination of genes will make the particular kind of brain development much more likely.
At least that's my take on it.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2005 11:28:13 GMT -5
This actually opens up a whole new can of worms with regards to cloning in general and the cloning of psykers specifically. Would the abilities of a psyker carry through to a clone? Is it only "hardware" (biological) or is their a "software" (like an Avatar in MtA) componet which allows a psyker to access the warp? Hmm, cloning… Officially I’m not to sure exactly how Psykers really work as the mechanics are never really delved into, hence of the ideas I come up with to try a create continuity within my own 40K imaginings. I would say the Psyker are a product of their warp signature ‘matrix’, and that matrix is formed not only through biology but by experience (memories and learned skills for neuron link patterns that for the scaffold for the warp signature matrix). Hence the only way a clone could develop Psyker powers is if they lived exactly the same life as the original down to the last detail (which is impossible). The clone could develop power, but has as much chance as any other human. I like this idea because is means anyone can become a Psyker and you can’t screen for them, as any human’s mind could suddenly develop Alpha abilities! This seems to make the Psyker menace for more random and unpredictable, which I like as this seems to tie in with Chaos. Oh, and the reason scanning a person’s memories/ neuron links and transplanting them into the clone doesn’t work, is because part of the Psyker process it developed in layers, having the neurons all set at once doesn’t allow the Warp signature matrix to function (kinda like a total engine stall - like putting a car into fifth gear, then starting the engine and flooring it all at the same time) as the matrix has a process of firing up, start sequence as it where.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 8, 2005 14:06:49 GMT -5
Hence the only way a clone could develop Psyker powers is if they lived exactly the same life as the original down to the last detail (which is impossible). That doesn't pan out. Genetically the clone might be a latent, but that doesn't mean that they would have to have exactly the same life experiences to be a psyker. Perhaps to be exactly the same person with exactly the same psyker abilities, but even then it might not work. Common imagery is that when the warp is involved who is to know? Whatever catalyst even makes someone a psyker from latency could be present with the clone. The clone could develop power, but has as much chance as any other human. With the exception that they're genetically predisposed towards it... I like this idea because is means anyone can become a Psyker and you can’t screen for them, as any human’s mind could suddenly develop Alpha abilities! Well, one would argue that the genetic component is predominant. After all this is the continual bludgeon that is used with regards to the Navigators, who are now 'outed' as psykers in the more conventional sense (rather than being acknowledged as likely using psyker powers... yes there is a minor difference!). This seems to make the Psyker menace for more random and unpredictable, which I like as this seems to tie in with Chaos. I'm rather fond of it as well... but there we go. Perhaps not quite as random as one might suggest, but there we go. All of which is fairly irrelevant for this thread...
|
|