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Post by zholud on Jun 29, 2004 6:03:35 GMT -5
On bolters – he original fluff indicated that they are recoilless, but a lot of writers just like to describe recoil – its like feeling the gun bark thingie… or like cases of caseless bolters I prefer to have them recoilless.
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Post by Tynesh on Jun 29, 2004 6:51:46 GMT -5
Had a good think about the spear things last night and how they are made and used in operations. The only real way I see them working would if they are melta or lance torches, basically a scaled up version of a techmarines cutting torch, like an oxy-acetalene torch, but only bigger. I toyed with the idea of adding some chain-blades onto the end as well.
IMO they would be very heavy and cumbersome. Great at carving through bulkheads and smashing enemies with on the head, but very slow, even for a marine. I suggest using the Chain-fist option in the Armoury. Make it two-handed and prevent it being used with other close combat weapons for the extra attack. This doubles the strength and adds extra D6 to penetration roles. The Int 1 striking is suitable too for a heavy weapon.
The main problem is I think you invisioned a basic long pole with an explosive on the end, not that much use once first used and pretty dangerous to wield. I find the idea that power weapons can cut through anything a bit silly. In most stories I have read, they either cut like a hot knife in butter or in a fist format they are used to punch slowly through walls and bulkheads. It would be better if they were slower and used to gouge out chunks of wall etc. Also how do the tiny little chainsaws on a chainfist enable extra penetration into super strong armour, come on!! they would break!
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Post by CELS on Jun 29, 2004 8:29:28 GMT -5
I've always wondered about chain-fists too. I imagine they work just like I power fist, except that the chain-saw cuts into the heated metal, literally like a knife through hot butter.
Sikkukkut actually suggested, as I understand it, a long pole with some sort of cutting blade, and an explosive charge with a directed blast. The blast wouldn't really damage the blade or the pole, so after detonating the explosive, you could just attach a new one and get back to cutting.
Of course, another way out would be to just combine melta guns and melta bombs.
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Post by Destecado on Jun 29, 2004 10:10:20 GMT -5
I'm still concerned about the idea of the breaching spears. In part this concern stems from the thought of using such weapons inside the enemies ship. What is being described is a weapon that amount pretty much to a staff or short polearm. If you have ever attempted to fight with such weapons in close quarters, it is not easy. There is also the problem of clearance to swing such weapons.
There also does not seem to be any restriction on the number of breaching spears that may be taken. this may not be so important to the RPG, but in terms of the Wargame, it may be overpowered. Perhaps Breaching Spears should count as specialized war gear.
I also question its usefulness for breaching the hull of a ship. Is it the general opinion that a krak grenade or melta bomb would be able to penetrate standard hull plating on a space ship? Part of the reason that boarding torpedoes are used is because they can breach the out hull of the ship.
An alternative to making the Breaching spear and actual weapon in the armory is to add into the chapter's speacial rules that give them a bonus for breaching armor....be it on space ships or tanks on the battle field.
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Post by Tynesh on Jun 29, 2004 21:14:36 GMT -5
I think it has been mentioned before that the spears would be little more than ineffective against the exterior plating of a space ship. Once inside they could cut up hatches etc ith relative ease. On the aspect of be cumbersome and unwieldy that is why I suggested the chain fist as it strikes at Int 1. The idea of a cutting torch as opposed to an explosive charge seems the better option at the moment as they would have a longer usage before needing repair etc. Here is a quick Paint Job of my concept of the spear img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tynesh/spear.bmp
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Post by Tynesh on Jun 29, 2004 21:30:41 GMT -5
Okay looking at some of the work I have done on the Space Marine Foundings it appears that the FB were founded during the 23rd Founding in the late 37th/early 38th millennium (if the dates in the article are M.37 not M36 as some of them are???) this places the intial start of the chapter a couple of hundred years after the end of the Waaagh! In my opinion and research this period seems quite justified as the =][= would have had to petition the High Lords etc and a New Founding to be granted by the Emperor. The AM will have then had to select and screen the Silver Skulls geneseed that it kept in stasis on Mars. This will have had to have been tested for compatibility with subject from Massil etc to ensure their purity. Charters will have been made between many Imperial Organisations at Imperium level for all the chapters of the Founding, the AM will have also had to begin the laying down of ships and vehicles for all the new chapters. IMO a Founding is indeed a very big task for the Adeptus Terra, with many separate orgs having to combine to work on one task. It may take several hundred years to fully establish all the Founding, with all the work being done in one place at one time rahter than slowly churning out chapters every century or so...
I hope the later dates are correct for the Waaagh! as the earlier ones place it just after the Age of Apostacy. It was at this time that the 22nd Founding the Adeptus Praseus was formed; a Founding of 20 or so chapters, that were created to further strengthen the defences around the EoT.
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Post by Sikkukkut on Jul 1, 2004 2:42:14 GMT -5
Okay looking at some of the work I have done on the Space Marine Foundings it appears that the FB were founded during the 23rd Founding in the late 37th/early 38th millennium (if the dates in the article are M.37 not M36 as some of them are???) this places the intial start of the chapter a couple of hundred years after the end of the Waaagh! In my opinion and research this period seems quite justified as the =][= would have had to petition the High Lords etc snipI hope the later dates are correct for the Waaagh! as the earlier ones place it just after the Age of Apostacy. It was at this time that the 22nd Founding the Adeptus Praseus was formed; a Founding of 20 or so chapters, that were created to further strengthen the defences around the EoT. Yeah, sorry about the date thing - when I was working on the early part of the IA the forum IIRC was in the middle of some discussion about some other part of the Sector's history and I remember deciding to shift millennia, although I forget why. Looks like I missed some dates when I did that. Feel free to shift all the dates to fit in with the 22nd Founding; I'll make the corrections in the next iteration of the IA. More boradly: phew. There's been a stack of stuff brought up here, possibly too much to cover in a single reply. I'll have a try at addressing the major issues people have been bringing up ib a series of posts over the next few days.
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Post by CELS on Jul 1, 2004 21:06:15 GMT -5
When exactly was the 22nd founding? You may have seen my thread on Portent where I was asking for the date of SM foundings... The 22nd didn't come up.
As for your reply, Sikkukkut; keep in mind that the whole Space Marine psychology, shining knights vs dark killers, is discussed on Portent. No need to discuss it here as well, unless it's specifically related to Frost Bringers.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 2, 2004 12:05:56 GMT -5
And remembering Kage fiant might have to be applied here if I actually lost that discussion!
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 3, 2004 2:06:47 GMT -5
Okay....
21st "Cursed Founding" Late M35/EarlyM36, just before the Age of Apostacy begins.
22nd Founding - Ordered after the Age of Apostacy to strenghten the Imperium's defences. 20 chapters of the founding form the Adeptus Praseus, set to guard the appoaches to the Eye of Terror. No mention if other chapters were founded at the same time. It appears this is the Founding that the Frost Bringers were created at, according to your sources.
23rd Founding - LateM37/EarlyM38, includes the Celestial Lions, Celebrants and Angels of Wrath. I would personally prefer it if the FB were founded at this time, however it does cut down on their 'history' some what.
NOTES: A single founding may have taken several hundred years to equip and bring all the chapters of the time up to full strength. I see a chapter being built up in this way over a period of at least several decades, maines gaining experience and developing new tactics etc. Just remember that there will be no veteran company at first and the 10th Company will be significantly enlarged. To have reached the number of chapters at present (1000), not including the 1st and 2nd Foundings (960) in 24 Foundings on average there will have been at least 40 chapters created per founding.
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Post by CELS on Jul 3, 2004 5:03:37 GMT -5
Okay.... 21st "Cursed Founding" Late M35/EarlyM36, just before the Age of Apostacy begins. Well, I guess that's too early So when exactly would this be? Probably right after Sebastian Thor saved the day? Great parts of the Imperium would be a mess by then, so... if Thor becomes Ecclessiarch in 288.M36, maybe 350.M36 is a good year for the 22nd founding? Then why do you prefer this date? And how do you know that it's Late M37 / Early M38? The nice thing about the 22nd founding is that we know when it was, with a certain degree of confidence. Probably, but they don't wait for the chapter to have reached 900 experienced Space Marines (and 100 scouts) before it is founded.
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Post by zholud on Jul 3, 2004 10:25:04 GMT -5
Probably, but they don't wait for the chapter to have reached 900 experienced Space Marines (and 100 scouts) before it is founded. I guess (and because this is shadowed area in GW fluff I can only guess) that the following system is used during creation - High Lords decide that new Chapter somewhere should be founded as part of the n-th Founding. The call for Mechanicus, setting major guidelines, like we need heavy gravity jungle fighters. I understand that Astartes excel in any conditions, but I still think that fine-tuning is possible. Future Chapter gets number for reference.
- Adeptus Mechanicus review their databanks, choose appropriate samples (possible guided by Inquisition) and send them to research base.
- Genetors on the base, similar to Incunambula, depicted in the Cursed Founding IA fully form a Chapter, 1,000-strong.
- At the same time specified Forge world makes equipment ready.
- Grown up and equipped this Marines receive teachers from well-established Chapters, which count toward new Chapter now. They start learning by doing on small-scale crusade.
- The crusade shows their character and distinctive habits and they are finally named.
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 3, 2004 22:54:34 GMT -5
I original favour for the 23rd Founding was because there was nothing distinctive about, with no major events happening in it and only 3 named chapters that could have been created at the time.
In using the 22nd Founding, we need to explain that there were more than the 20 twenty chapters of the Adeptus Praseus who guarded the EoT. Easy to do when there needs to be around 40 chapters in the Founding.
--- In the centuries following the Age of Apostacy, the Imperium was in a state of turmoil. Many planets still remained loyal to the traitor Vandire, and Humanity appeared weakened to invaders from outside. In order to consolidate and rebuild the Imperium's strength, the High Lords decreed that the Emperor of Mankind had called for a new Founding of the Adeptus Astartes.
Great debate took place on where and for what purposes the new chapters should be created for. Members of the Adeptus Terra called for more space marines to be spread across the Imperium, ready to defend against any local threats. This was strongly opposed by members of the Inquisition who were concerned that the civil war had weakened the defences surrounding the EoT, a weakness that could be exploited by the Traitor Legions.
After many years it was decided that nearly half the strength of the 23rd Founding of the Adeptus Astartes would take up station on worlds surrounding the EoT; the other chapters would be located according to the wishes of the AT, in regions where there was strife and prolonged warfare.
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 3, 2004 23:13:20 GMT -5
The Priesthood of Terra began the search for areas of the Emperor's realm that would be blessed by the presence of his greatest warriors. A strong plea was heard from the Anargo Sector, located in the Ultima Segmentum. Backed by the new Lord Commander of the Sector and by members of the Inquisition, they requested a chapter of Marines that could equal the zeal and abilities of the Silver Skulls chapter that had recently been operating in the sector and the adjacent war ravaged Cruciatine Sector.
After long deliberation the AT granted the decree of the 23rd Founding, beginning a process that would last for several centuries. The Adeptus Mechanicus began to scour their gene-banks on Mars to locate suitable geneseed for the chapters and to begin the processes of arming forty chapters of space marines.
At the personal request of Lord Inquisitor Horska, head of the Ordos Anargo, the chapter destined for the Anargo Sector was to utilise the geneseed of the Silver Skulls Chapter, part of the most renowned Ultramarines Legion. Indeed this request was granted partly due to the high quality zygotes grown from the seed of Guilliman.
Members of the Silver Skulls were recruited to guide and lead the fledgling chapter in its first engagements, a great honour for any chapter. The Forgeworld of Proteus was granted a charter to begin production of hardware for the chapter; this included the laying down of a fleet of vessels for the new chapter. In orbit of Anargo Secundus the Tech-priests began construction of the strike cruiser (insert name), the first ship of the Frost Bringers Chapter.
Ok that should mesh in with the IA for the Fb and highlight the processes needed to start a new chapter.
Tynesh
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 6, 2004 6:19:28 GMT -5
Is the most recent Founding the 23rd?
Given the seperation in time between later foundings, there must have been a large spate of successive foundings shortly after the Heresy...
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