|
Post by Minister on Apr 13, 2004 16:51:36 GMT -5
Trying to work a Status thingie for 40K, GURPS style, see? I thought it belonged here rather than in RPG, though?
Some of you will be familiar with the Status stat from GURPS, yes? I was thinking that it could be used to hammer out a rough equivalency for Imperial citizens for both RPG and fiction use, hmm?
You will see that it's only the bare frame and in need of fleshing out?
8. Master of the Administratum; Ecclesiarch; Fabricator General; Paternova; Living Saint
7. Senior Administraum Master; Cardinal Palatine; Grand Master of the Inquisition; High Lords
6. Administratum Master; Sector Governor; Cardinal Primus; Inquisitor Lord; Senior Magos
5. Prefect Primus
4. Prefect Secundus
3. Prefect Tetrius
2. Ordinate
1. Menial; Subordinate
0. Midhive citizen; Agri-world peasant
-1. Downhiver
-2. Underhiver
-3. Servitor; Slave
-4. Mutant; Heretic; Traitor
Similarly, Rank:
8. (Lord Commander of the Imperium)
7. Segmentum Lord Commander; Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard; Warmaster
6. Lord General; Lord Admiral
5. General; Admiral
4. Imperial Guard Colonel; Naval Captain
3. Imperial Guard Captain; Naval Commander
2. Lieutenant
1. N.C.O.
0. Trooper; Rating
-1. Conscript; Penal Trooper; Indentured Crewman
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 4:49:09 GMT -5
Problem is that status is inherently tied up with rank, well, kind of as the name of the thread suggests. For a very quickie guide to how I used to interpret this, then go here: For a specific discussion of generalised military ranks then go here: Note the discrepancy between the two tables (i.e. Rank 8!), but that's another story. Such tables were quickly knocked up and were meant to be subsequently refined following discussion on Portent. But, as normal, that didn't happen. Rather than offer a structure most people were more concerned with not giving a structure... As to the one presented here...? Well, it misses out the Emperor (paramount rank), but then again most people would just simply say something along the lines of "Well, you cannot become the Emperor so what's the point of including RPG statistics for it." This kind of misses the entire point of the exercise, but there we go. I do not agree in the status separation between, say, the Master of the Administratum and the Grand Master of the Inquisition. If anything in those two examples the situation should be reversed: while everyone knows about the Administratum they tend to be faceless, whereas the fear engendered by the Inquisition and therefore the Grand Master would be that much more significant in the terms of the plebs and, potentially, nobilitas. The creation of Status graduations based purely on ranks with the adeptus terra is not something that I see as entirely appropriate, though perhaps that is just me. I do not see Imperial culture being defined by the adeptus terra, but rather existing as something else: a function of the elite and, therefore, the nobilitas. As to the lower ranks? Whatever floats your boat on this one. I still see servitors ranking higher than slaves since, in essence, they are slaves that have a high material value... but that's really a minor point. The ranks? Seems fine for the most part... Strange that I've doen the complete opposite on my scaling system that you've done with your status system, i.e. spread it out and concentrated on a limited aspect. I was more concerned, seemingly, with the lower-ranks of the Guard (i.e. expanding the horrendously grainy rank system that exists as part of the 'fluff'). As to the upper ranks, this is one of those points that I would, however, suggest flexibility. It's one of those reasons that I had status categories rather than each level delineated (ish) which, when coupled with military and/or Adept rank, could be used partially to explain the 'mid-range' rank systems of the subsector, sector, segmentum, etc. But that is definitely something that would need some not-inconsiderable work... But overall, an interesting topic and since the ASP is all about guidelines, definitely something worth hammering out the various issues over... Kage
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Apr 14, 2004 6:04:12 GMT -5
I'm not keen on mixing ranks of different organisations; the Guard and the Administratum aren't comparable, for example.
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 11:08:27 GMT -5
They are at high enough levels, but anyway...
On the Master of the Administratum, he's the efective head of the Imperium, supreme overboss of the entirety of the Guard, Navy, Arbitrators and so-on and so-on. I think that that deserves an eight. Knowing that this one person has more people killed with a single swipe of a pen than most Inquisitor Lords manage in a lifetime has that efect ("The Neshven expanse is hearby declared the subject of an Imperial Crusade. All methods for pacification are open.") would scare the shirt out of me...
The Grand Master of the Inquisition isn't... well... maybee. I still think he would be a seven, but I'm open to convincing.
On the Emperor, he's basicly a God at this point, whereas level eight is worshiped as a god. That's the way I look at it anyway. Besides that, it frees up more space on the chart. If you want to, put him as a special case nine. (Of course it breaks the rules. He's the Emperor...)
Of course, high Rank comes with Status. I'm thinking that from 4 and above there's an automatic status of Rank -2, which goes up for those persons who are either sucessful or politicaly popular.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Apr 14, 2004 11:21:24 GMT -5
Does everyone in the Imperium recognize the authority and credibility of a living Saint? Does he or she effictively speak the will of the Emperor?
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 11:49:37 GMT -5
I belive that the Living Saint oficialy regognised by the Ecclesiarchy would be recognized y almost everyone, and they've certainly got the ol' halo of shining light etc. to help on that count, but there will still be some who don't recognize them. Then again, a hacked off guardsman who's the sole survivor of an Inquisitorial purge wouldn't be all that likley to venerate an Inquisitor Lord either...
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 15:55:29 GMT -5
I'm not keen on mixing ranks of different organisations; the Guard and the Administratum aren't comparable, for example. ... And!? Military rank and status are separate, hence my preference for using military ranks being accessible, usually, through specific status ranks. Only people of the 'correct breeding' become officers, and the officer brought up out of the ranks? Well, that's a whole different kettle of fish. And while I note the extent of the adeptus administratum I still do not think that makes him a 'higher rank'. They are part of a structure of 'High Lords' which have variable inputs into the system, but an input nonetheless. But then again I always felt that it was ridiculous to put the Grand Master of the Assassins as a High Lord for somewhat obvious reasons... And I agree wholeheartedly with the Living Saint thing. Don't even bother to include them. They're a religious rank thing! (And religious rank is once again separate from status rank, juste as military rank is. That they translate to something in terms of "secular" status is not surprising, but does not define what they are.) Kage
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 15:57:50 GMT -5
The Administratum has always been the majority of the Adeptus Terra. Hell, the Ecclesiarchy's technicaly a sub-devision.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 16:32:56 GMT -5
I know what you're getting at. It is, after all, a rather simple premise. I just don't agree with you and feel that it would introduce far too many problems. Once again, if you're going to draw up the table then I suggest that you differentiate between status, military rank and 'religious rank', the main points of difference although, of course, some features are going to cross over. Kage
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 16:39:59 GMT -5
Right you are, add in a Religious Rank one. All Ecclesiarchy types get a direct transfer with the same value (I'm keeping constants at 6, highest in sector, and 0, pleb, equivelant, in case you hadn't noticed). Status, much like for the military, would generaly be N-2 for those at 4 or greater, but can be brought up (the Ecclesiarch will be at least 7, as he is a High Lord and so a major player within the Adeptus Terra).
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 16:44:42 GMT -5
And another point, these are mostly categories rather than individual positions. Rank 3, for example, includes IG Captains, Majors, Naval Lieutennant Commanders, Commanders and so-on, they're significant for who's in command, but not significant to have them as seperate categories.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 17:07:49 GMT -5
That is not clear on the structure above and would need to be subsequently detailed. I'm also keen that Rank and Status 8 are the Emperor. Not only because that's what I've done, but it's always nice to have it as a potential. Top dog is always nice to see, if it can never be obtained... The best way of doing it is having a 'status' table with subsequent relations of ranks to status (providing the categories). It would also be good if the most obvious and appropriate means of 'Imperial culture' were integrated in such a fashion as to be noticeable in the status tables... Kage
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Apr 14, 2004 17:12:01 GMT -5
I am going to put the Emperor in at level 9 on all charts. I know that, strictly by the GURPS character builder, this is not possible, but then again you're not goint to build the Emperor as a character. This is, firstly, to make my life easier as all the various ranks of military and Administratum fit nicely into the supplied categories and, secondly, to ilustrate the vast gulph between those at the bottom and those at the top.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 18:31:16 GMT -5
I am going to put the Emperor in at level 9 on all charts. I know that, strictly by the GURPS character builder, this is not possible, but then again you're not goint to build the Emperor as a character. Erm, I've already worked on a pre- and post-Golden Throne version of the Emperor in GURPS terms. Gotta love the flexiblity of that system. I'm sorry, but whacking them in as 'unobtaineum' just strikes me as not encompassing the full spectrum of social variation within the Imperium. This is, firstly, to make my life easier as all the various ranks of military and Administratum fit nicely into the supplied categories and, secondly, to ilustrate the vast gulph between those at the bottom and those at the top. Remembering that I don't agree with your status assumptions with regards to the adeptus terra. I'm sorry but I will not accept Imperial culture as being defined by the adeptus terra regardless of the size of that body. The elite. Even Brussie agrees on this with me - or I with him, whatever order you want to put that in - and that's a novel change. The Imperium is, in essence, defined by it's nobility. Kage
|
|
Raider
Scribe
The Anti-Christ
Posts: 53
|
Post by Raider on Apr 15, 2004 0:28:22 GMT -5
Just to add my own 10c on the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy...
Actual titles vary sector to sector for ranks below Lord General, not all NCO ranks are present in all regiments i.e. Catachans would not have NCO ranks above Sergeant, since they dont different between Soldiers and Officers. Modians would on the other hand. This is just the largest formation the Officer would command, one Colonel could be commanding a Regiment, a second serving as 2ic of the Brigade and a third as a mid-ranking staff officer to the Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard.
Guard Ranks 7b-Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard 7a-Lord General Militant/Warmaster (Segmentum Commander) 6a-Lord General (Sector Commander) 5f-Field Marshal (Higher Formation Commander) 5e-Marshal (Higher Formation Commander) 5d-General (Army Commander) 5c-Lieutenant General (Corp Commander) 5b-Major General (Division Commander) 5a-Brigadier (Brigade Commander) 4b-Colonel (Regiment Commander) 4a-Lieutenant Colonel (Battalion Commander) 3d-Major (Senior Company Commander) 3c-Captain (Company Commander) 3b-Lieutenant (Senior Platoon Commander) 3a-2nd Lieutenant (Platoon Commander) 2d-Regimental Sergeant Major (Regiment Sergeant) 2c-Sergeant Major (Battalion/Company Sergeant) 2b-Senior Sergeant (Platoon Sergeant) 2a-Sergeant (Squad leader) 1c-Corporal (Squad 2ic) 1b-Lance Corporal (Fireteam leader) 1a-Private (Grunt)
I'm less sure about Naval Ranks, especially lower ranks and this is Minister's territory somewhat, but still...
Navy Ranks 7b-No equivilant rank 7a-Lord High Admiral (Segmentum Commander) 6a-Lord Admiral (Sector Commander) 5f-High Admiral (Sector Fleet) 5e-Fleet Admiral (Task Force Command) 5d-Admiral (Task Force Command) 5c-Vice Admiral (Sub-Sector Fleet) 5b-Rear Admiral (Sub-Sector Fleet) 5a-Commodore (Battlegroup, Heavy Ship) 4b-Captain (Cruiser) 4a-Commander (Cruiser) 3d-Lieutenant Commander (Destroyer) 3c-Lieutenant (Frigate) 3b-Sub-Lieutenant 3a-Midshipman 2d-Master Chief Petty Officer 2c-Chief Petty Officer 2b-1st Petty Officer 2a-Petty Officer 1c-Senior Crewman 1b-Leading Crewman 1a-Crewman
EDIT: Just glanced at Minister's fleet listings and realized his opinion on ranks below Captain is somewhat different to mine...
|
|