Post by Philip on Mar 12, 2005 18:53:20 GMT -5
From this thread on the Adeptus Mechanicus
Hi Zholud,
Thanks for the input!
You have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, I was referring to the USA when they where doing R&D back in the day, it took huge resources to learn how to get space flight to work and cost many lives (also much info from the germans after WW2). I'm sure the Ukraine can build excellent space ships and parts to exacting plans, but if the technology never existed in the first place, then I don't think the Ukraine would have the resources to invent that technology from scratch.
As an example: Let say the 'powerfield' R&D requires vast quantities of anti-matter, or even rarer dark matter (similar to raw warp – warp stone!). In order to get enough for R&D the DaoT scientists needed 30,000 one mile square particle accelerators to churn out enough dark matter from the prgramme. Once the powerfield technology and theory was learned, this massive daily product of dark matter was then turned over and used to build warp engines, anti-grav systems, powerfields etc. I'm sure even the USA couldn't build, house and power 30,000 1mile/sq particle accelerators for the dark matter programme (remember these are DaoT particle accelerators, nothing like the weedy once we have nowadays)
The proof is the warp drive itself. As for being more advanced than the Eldar, I would say no, or rather there technologies where very different. However where the Eldar knew what they where doing, the humans didn't know what they were getting themselves into.
Already made the concepts, that’s why this bit was an 'edit: added'. As for the Artiloids name I wanted it to tie in with the Artilects as they are the agents of the Artilects, basically a mixture of 'Artilect' and 'humanoid'.
The Artilect designed the warp drive which jumps out of reality (a bit god like, perhaps a demi-god), the Artilect is just the mind of a god, humanity and the machines the Artilect makes are its body and how it exercises its power.
Your point being?
Obviously waiting for the creation of the Artilect, to produce the warp drive, to expose humanity to the warp and trigger the latent abilities in humans converting them to Psykers. The Emperor knew this, the machine was going to do what the Emperor desired so why stop it? At the same time it meant he stayed hidden.
At the moment that's all it is, as it hasn't been OK'd by Kage or GW or anyone. It just one of the many possible 'true' histories that can be used to explain what really went on.
It is a snug fit and gives a real reason as to why things went the way they did.
They only needed one Artilect, and they needed a big space, low gravity. It could really have been built anywhere, and moon even in the void of space, they happened to build it on Mars most likely because of it location, it a planet and its big and its not Earth and has resources.
The Artilects weren't trying to destroy humanity, only contain and lock down. Using nukes against humans, the Artilect would go against everything the Artilects were designed for and 'believed' in (that's if an Artilect has such characteristics!).
The Emperor goes to Mars and the Artilect understands what the Emperor has to say, and uses the Emperor as the new blue print for humanity. The Artilect understands that as warp travel comes to a close the rate of possession will subside, and that all the current Alpha Class Psykers must die off. Then humanity can be reclaimed later in a great crusade and systems for the control of the Psykers put into place.
No fluff said what really happened in any detail, it seems GW policy is to write all background from the POV of a person in the Imperium, so no real overview is ever given.
Cont. over 10K long.
Hi Zholud,
Thanks for the input!
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:That’s a little unfair; I did say that higher technology was out of reach, not the low end stuff. An world can compete at the low end (just like any country can compete at the low end)
A better analogy would be the USA’s space programme, I know Belgium isn’t in the same league when it comes to space, they just don’t have the same resources as the USA.
Ok, present day space programme is just a pompous show remained from cold war times – superpowers pumped money there just because opponent did. If there have been and a priori predicted profit/gain from it – Belgium might have taken its part there. Counter-example, Ukraine belongs to top-10 countries in production of space ships now… if you know such commercial projects as sea lunch – Ukraine gives carrier rockets there. And Ukraine is far from being a supremacy, thus bigger means better approach can be incorrect as well. But back to 40k
A better analogy would be the USA’s space programme, I know Belgium isn’t in the same league when it comes to space, they just don’t have the same resources as the USA.
Ok, present day space programme is just a pompous show remained from cold war times – superpowers pumped money there just because opponent did. If there have been and a priori predicted profit/gain from it – Belgium might have taken its part there. Counter-example, Ukraine belongs to top-10 countries in production of space ships now… if you know such commercial projects as sea lunch – Ukraine gives carrier rockets there. And Ukraine is far from being a supremacy, thus bigger means better approach can be incorrect as well. But back to 40k
You have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, I was referring to the USA when they where doing R&D back in the day, it took huge resources to learn how to get space flight to work and cost many lives (also much info from the germans after WW2). I'm sure the Ukraine can build excellent space ships and parts to exacting plans, but if the technology never existed in the first place, then I don't think the Ukraine would have the resources to invent that technology from scratch.
As an example: Let say the 'powerfield' R&D requires vast quantities of anti-matter, or even rarer dark matter (similar to raw warp – warp stone!). In order to get enough for R&D the DaoT scientists needed 30,000 one mile square particle accelerators to churn out enough dark matter from the prgramme. Once the powerfield technology and theory was learned, this massive daily product of dark matter was then turned over and used to build warp engines, anti-grav systems, powerfields etc. I'm sure even the USA couldn't build, house and power 30,000 1mile/sq particle accelerators for the dark matter programme (remember these are DaoT particle accelerators, nothing like the weedy once we have nowadays)
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:After all the DAoT technicians are mucking about with the very fabric of the universe in a god like way.
Any proofs? Were there superior to Eldar, or Eldar at that moment were way superior to them today (I mean 40k ). I agree that DAoT scientists knew a lot, but they were far from gods, as I see gods
Any proofs? Were there superior to Eldar, or Eldar at that moment were way superior to them today (I mean 40k ). I agree that DAoT scientists knew a lot, but they were far from gods, as I see gods
The proof is the warp drive itself. As for being more advanced than the Eldar, I would say no, or rather there technologies where very different. However where the Eldar knew what they where doing, the humans didn't know what they were getting themselves into.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:Edit: Added
World AI = Artilect
Ironmen (nRobot) = Artiloids (agents of the Artilect).
Make concepts first, names later. Plus I dislike them. Robots are robots, not artiloids (loaded with art?). all IMHO, as usual.
World AI = Artilect
Ironmen (nRobot) = Artiloids (agents of the Artilect).
Make concepts first, names later. Plus I dislike them. Robots are robots, not artiloids (loaded with art?). all IMHO, as usual.
Already made the concepts, that’s why this bit was an 'edit: added'. As for the Artiloids name I wanted it to tie in with the Artilects as they are the agents of the Artilects, basically a mixture of 'Artilect' and 'humanoid'.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:The World AI systems are god like in what they do
List what they do, please. Create worlds = no, at least no mentioned facts; predict future = no; manipulate with time-space = no more than we do…
The World AI systems are god like in what they don’t
List what they do, please. Create worlds = no, at least no mentioned facts; predict future = no; manipulate with time-space = no more than we do…
The World AI systems are god like in what they don’t
The Artilect designed the warp drive which jumps out of reality (a bit god like, perhaps a demi-god), the Artilect is just the mind of a god, humanity and the machines the Artilect makes are its body and how it exercises its power.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:To summarise the machine can drop you into the warp but then you are on your own,
Imperium ships without mega-computers do that everyday…
Imperium ships without mega-computers do that everyday…
Your point being?
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:Note: The Emperor is above an Alpha class Psyker, and as such is even more powerful than a ‘World AI’ system, and has a deeper understanding of the warp and the universe because he can see it, his mind can go where the machine can not: His mind is greater and more powerful.
Mankind had Emperor before WAI (World AI), the former is superior – what for the latter is created in the first place?
Mankind had Emperor before WAI (World AI), the former is superior – what for the latter is created in the first place?
Obviously waiting for the creation of the Artilect, to produce the warp drive, to expose humanity to the warp and trigger the latent abilities in humans converting them to Psykers. The Emperor knew this, the machine was going to do what the Emperor desired so why stop it? At the same time it meant he stayed hidden.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:All this mucking about with warp travel, the experiments needed to make it work, brought to light that humans could feel the warp, were the machine could not. This was how the Navigator programme first came into existence and this Navigators programme would have been a ‘human run’ programme because the machine couldn’t help. Unfortunately, all this warp contact awoke something dormant/ latent ability in humans, that wasn’t obvious at first. Some Human became ‘Psykers’
Presence in warp activates psychic abilities… yep, this is possible (not as a fact by as a hypothesis).
Presence in warp activates psychic abilities… yep, this is possible (not as a fact by as a hypothesis).
At the moment that's all it is, as it hasn't been OK'd by Kage or GW or anyone. It just one of the many possible 'true' histories that can be used to explain what really went on.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:Eventually the possession rate increased dramatically as warp travel increased dramatically (but with a delay so it wasn’t immediately obvious), and the World AI on Mars decided that humans in the Sol system was ‘infected’ by a contagion it couldn’t see or detect, and tried to lock down civilization,
I see some potential in the idea.
I see some potential in the idea.
It is a snug fit and gives a real reason as to why things went the way they did.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:All colonised world had the STC coupled with an AI (not sentient like the Mars system
Why DAoT period Mars is end-all? Why they are better than Earth, Moon, Ganymede on thousand planets, colonised by that time? Why Mars has not rules the mankind?
Why DAoT period Mars is end-all? Why they are better than Earth, Moon, Ganymede on thousand planets, colonised by that time? Why Mars has not rules the mankind?
They only needed one Artilect, and they needed a big space, low gravity. It could really have been built anywhere, and moon even in the void of space, they happened to build it on Mars most likely because of it location, it a planet and its big and its not Earth and has resources.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:Many worlds fell back to a barbaric state worshipping the new ‘Gods’, on worlds where the Alpha Psykers who challenged the machine perished with the death of the AI
Or worshipped machines, where psykers perished… nukes are damn hard to withstand even for a psyker
Or worshipped machines, where psykers perished… nukes are damn hard to withstand even for a psyker
The Artilects weren't trying to destroy humanity, only contain and lock down. Using nukes against humans, the Artilect would go against everything the Artilects were designed for and 'believed' in (that's if an Artilect has such characteristics!).
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:As for the Mars AI, it was challenged by the Emperor himself, and that is why it remains to this day. The Emperor was the only Psyker who could control the vast powers his body contained, so he was the only one that could spare the machine.
So Emperor in M26 goes to Mars, confronts and outfits WAI (in same trial as with Russ, I guess ), then returns to Terra, which is in anarchy for net 3.5 millennia and waits… WAI also waits for something, while the Mars cult emerges… strange behaviour of both major players.
So Emperor in M26 goes to Mars, confronts and outfits WAI (in same trial as with Russ, I guess ), then returns to Terra, which is in anarchy for net 3.5 millennia and waits… WAI also waits for something, while the Mars cult emerges… strange behaviour of both major players.
The Emperor goes to Mars and the Artilect understands what the Emperor has to say, and uses the Emperor as the new blue print for humanity. The Artilect understands that as warp travel comes to a close the rate of possession will subside, and that all the current Alpha Class Psykers must die off. Then humanity can be reclaimed later in a great crusade and systems for the control of the Psykers put into place.
on Today at 09:53am, Philip wrote:Golden Men = Psykers, powerful Alphas who became living ‘gods’ on the fallen world
Stone Men = Humans without Psyker powers (who relied to much on machines and were ‘saved’ by the golden men [Psykers] – according the subsequent scripture written by the Psykers who enslaved them and force them to worship them as gods)
Iron Men = Agents of the AI, who where destroyed in droves by the Alpha Psykers. The Machine stood no chance against the fury of the Alphas.
No fluff ever said that Golden men led Stone men against Iron men…
Stone Men = Humans without Psyker powers (who relied to much on machines and were ‘saved’ by the golden men [Psykers] – according the subsequent scripture written by the Psykers who enslaved them and force them to worship them as gods)
Iron Men = Agents of the AI, who where destroyed in droves by the Alpha Psykers. The Machine stood no chance against the fury of the Alphas.
No fluff ever said that Golden men led Stone men against Iron men…
No fluff said what really happened in any detail, it seems GW policy is to write all background from the POV of a person in the Imperium, so no real overview is ever given.
Cont. over 10K long.