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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 1:02:55 GMT -5
EDIT: Invictonburg stats for easy ref. [paste] Curent stats==================================================== STANDARD REPRESENTATION=INVICTONA PRIMUS==21/18/15 – K3V=Asteroid Belts2 Asteroid belts: One in orbit zone 2, second in orbit zone 3 (habitable zone) Gas Giants3 Gas giants in outer orbits =INVICTONA PRIMUS I==BAC2C0F-B [Ag! Fl Hi In] 213 IM 06S= Planet name: Invictona Primus Prima (Invictonburg) World class: Hiveworld Population: 2,200,000,000,000 Tech level: B Tithe Grade: Exactis Tertius Aestimare: B50 Orbital distance: 1.6AU Equatorial diameter: 15,300km Gravity: Molten core. Density .82. Mass 1.58 Gravity 1.01 Orbital period: 2.23 standard years 832.77days Length of day: 29.5 hours Atmosphere: Nitrogen, fluorine and sulphur compounds. Surface atmospheric pressure: 0.8atm Surface temperature: 319K 46 o (greenhouse 2.1!) Hydrosphere: 12% water. 40% surface area of silicate suspension in mercury. Life forms: Extinct [evidence of fossilised bacteria]. Moons: None ==================================================== [/paste ] First/ original post =Invictonburg=Is there space for one of these 20,000+ years old Hives. I need a world that is hostile with no breathable atmosphere, but does have a reasonably dense atmosphere (for the strike cannon). Can be heavily industrialized or have forge world like areas. Population would be astronomical, it the trillions (1,000-3,000 hives at a billion a pop) or 5 'hives' and a forge world mix. Any recommendations?
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Post by CELS on Jul 15, 2004 1:47:22 GMT -5
56,47,52 - K-V - B99758-C Ag 710 Im 095
Good star ports, big world, dense and tainted atmosphere, 70% hydrosphere
53,50,50 - M-VI - B788234-10 N Lo 504 Im 240
Good star ports, medium world, dense atmosphere, 80% hydrosphere
54,50,55 - M-V - B678548-6 Ag 804 Im 551
Good star ports, Medium world, tainted atmosphere, 80% hydrosphere
55,47,53 - F-V - A755468-9 N 313 Im 380
Excellent star ports, medium world, thin atmosphere, 50% hydrosphere
55,47,55 - M-V - C7A3310-8 Fl Lo 801 Im 0B0 Average star ports, medium world, exotic atmosphere, 30% hydrosphere
56,47,52 - K-V - A989758-C Ag 710 Im 095 Excellent star ports, large world, dense atmosphere, 90% hydrosphere
56,49,52 - M-V - A6888BA-8 S,N 814 Im 19(20) Excellent star ports, medium world, dense atmosphere, 80% hydrosphere
58,48,49 - F-V - A99A655-C Ag Wa 122 Im 475 Excellent star ports, large world, dense and tainted atmosphere, 100% hydrosphere
58,48,50 - M-V - B9C4223-7 Fl Lo 613 Im 0D0 Good star ports, large world, insidious atmosphere, 40% hydrosphere
59,45,54 - M-V - B580365-9 De Lo 422 Im 060 Good star ports, medium world, dense atmosphere, 0% hydrosphere
59,46,53 - K-V - E798459-6 202 Im 160 Poor star ports, medium world, dense and tainted atmosphere, 80% hydrosphere
Take your pick, Philip! And I think you might want to consider the population bit. I mean, consider the amount of food and water that would be needed just to keep this world alive. Not only would it probably be impossible to maintain such a high population, but it would also be a very, very unprofitable situation. Note: You can add pollution to these worlds as you want, and thus making the atmosphere more deadly to humans.
Oh, and just as a matter of terminology, forge worlds are worlds controlled and run by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Industrialised worlds are Imperial worlds that are mostly covered with... well, industry.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 1:51:05 GMT -5
If you're actually going to build Invictonburg, which you're more than welcome to do, then you're going to need to check out some other threads: Looking at the last link you'll get a series of astrographic co-ordinates, star classes and types, and "UWP" (Universal World Profiles) for the stars/worlds within the Meksum subsector. For example: 56,47,52 - K-V - B99758-C Ag 710 Im 095 You're going to have to have a copy of the "Guide" to translate this information, but suffice to say that the above 'agricultural world' (Ag) isn't suitable for your needs (UWP Atmosphere of '9' indicates that it is 'dense, tainted'). You request a world which doesn't have a breatheable atmosphere but which is otherwise fairly 'dense'. Looking at the Guide (p3), anything with an code A+ is going to be useful. (You're looking for the third digit here, i.e. B9 9758-C.) Looking down the list of UWP some possibilities may reveal themselves... 55,47,55 - M-V - C7A3310-8 Fl Lo 801 Im 0B0 58,48,50 - M-V - B9C4223-7 Fl Lo 613 Im 0D0 Okay, two examples. The first has an 'Exotic' atmosphere, the nature of which would be revealed during world building, while the second has an 'Insidious' atmosphere, which sounds about perfect for a hiveworld. Both worlds are fairly large, though the second is larger than Terra though with a much smaller area dedicated to 'surface water' (though with that atmosphere it's questionable whether it would be water). The other details are social and are therefore muteable to the needs of the world builder. Want a higher population? Just alter it to an appropriate code that makes sense. Different government type, again alter it to something which makes sense... One other good thing about the world in question is that it has phenomenal resources (D) available to it and would be ideal for 'mining'. That a hiveworld formed here under such extreme circumstances might make a form of sense... Furthermore, the 'insidious' atmosphere might be a direct result of the hiveworld pollution process... One thing that I shall once again state... In the way that you describe it I would feel that a population in the 'trillions' is pushing things. Just a tad. More so if you want it to be 'independent'. Indeed, while I might question the concept itself, zholud has previously argued that even with significant recycling, hiveworlds would require cubic kilometers of food to be imported daily. With regards to 'having forge world like areas', I must ask what you mean by this?
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Post by Dazo on Jul 15, 2004 2:09:31 GMT -5
Ahem thats Seleca III lads, keep your mitts off my world And i hope your do put this world in Meksum it sounds great, and don't worry about food, i'll just have to develop another agri world or me and zholud could work together on getting Neu Povolzh. up and running (assuming he wants to of course)
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 2:14:04 GMT -5
Do worry about food with that population... And your world is not suitable given Phillip's requirements, so don't worry daz0... Of course, you should probably get to finalising the SelecaIII concept...
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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 2:32:16 GMT -5
Take your pick, Philip! And I think you might want to consider the population bit. I mean, consider the amount of food and water that would be needed just to keep this world alive. Not only would it probably be impossible to maintain such a high population, but it would also be a very, very unprofitable situation. One thing that I shall once again state... In the way that you describe it I would feel that a population in the 'trillions' is pushing things. Just a tad. More so if you want it to be 'independent'. Indeed, while I might question the concept itself, zholud has previously argued that even with significant recycling, hiveworlds would require cubic kilometers of food to be imported daily. =The benefits of an STCS Hive=These Hives do not require imports of food! None, zip, absolutely zero. All food for the population in produced via the Bio-Spheres system (as describe in the Hive thread). I was thinking that you could a 100,000+ hives are more, the only limit id the strength of the planets crust and building materials. In fact as I detail these hives export food stuffs to the military (they can feed the armies they supply). Imperial designers (me) removed the vulnerability of requiring imports. The Hive descried acts as a Hive, Forgeworld, Agriworld etc. They're modular. One thing that I shall once again state... In the way that you describe it I would feel that a population in the 'trillions' is pushing things. Just a tad. More so if you want it to be 'independent'. Indeed, while I might question the concept itself, zholud has previously argued that even with significant recycling, hiveworlds would require cubic kilometers of food to be imported daily. =Colonising harsh environments=I think this sounds a good idea, I imagine (using the system described) that is it was rich in mining that the first world settled could have been this one (Navel blocked, Complex, Proto-Hive, Hive, more Hives). The 'Insidious' environment sounds good, perhaps hydrofluorocarbons, also I'll be adding a thick low laying smog, and a bit of Ammonia to sting things up a bit. This would make Invictonburg incredibly rich and ancient, isn't it going to cause a bit of a power shift? With regards to 'having forge world like areas', I must ask what you mean by this? Large Hive worlds of this type are surrounded buy heavy industry. Ahem thats Seleca III lads, keep your mitts off my world And i hope your do put this world in Meksum it sounds great, and don't worry about food, i'll just have to develop another agri world or me and zholud could work together on getting Neu Povolzh. up and running (assuming he wants to of course) I'm not the Imperium and I don't want to nick anybody's world, just to double check yours is not the one with the 'insidious' atmosphere?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 2:36:50 GMT -5
I know that you say that they produce all their food with the biospheres but... well, it doesn't seem realistic or even plausible. That's my concern here.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 15, 2004 2:38:47 GMT -5
No its not, mines the tranquil agri world with warm seas and white sand beaches
One question though, do they have some kind of birth regulation, because if they didn't the population would increase beyond the hives ability to feed them would it not. Is the hive still growing more domes being added and the like
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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 2:42:27 GMT -5
Did anyone read the bit about Bio-Spheres?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 2:52:36 GMT -5
Did anyone read the bit about Bio-Spheres? Yes... I'm just questioning the validity of the proposition. While it would be nice to have a completely self-enclosed cycle, it is not strictly possible. You are still talking about, ultimately, farming are you not? The production of carbohydrate/etc. and protein resources? You are still going to be limited by the area/volume that can be dedicated to this, as well inputs into the system in terms of fertiliser, etc. I just don't see it supporting - as described - the type of population that you're after in a 'self-enclosed' way.
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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 3:01:58 GMT -5
At the heart of this hive is the Bio-Sphere. Without it, the Hive would cease to be viable.
=Bio-Sphere= The Bio-Sphere is a very large unit (originally 500m diameter, but I think 100m to 200, sounds good) for growing food and is run by a clan of many families. The large Sphere is divided up into levels every 5-10m and is stacked with huge cabinets containing trays of algae and biomatter. Each tray has a built in lid with lighting powered by electrify supplied by the hive administration from the Core (central reactor of the Hive).
Some levels are open fields, well levels 10m without cabinets and proper plants growing in the open under glow bulbs from above. May have trees may not, very misty though.
They Bio-Sphere has full reprocessing and recycling facilities, all carbon dioxide it relocked into food, and converted back to oxygen and water, the carbon making the plant. Exported plants remove carbon from the system, which has to be brought back in (pumped or block). The import of this carbon is only required if the Bio-Sphere exports food.
All the power is supplied by the Core, the Core supplies all the Bio-Spheres. With unlimited power you can do almost anything.
Added to the STCS:Hive thread
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 3:57:42 GMT -5
Yes, I know what the biosphere is and how your describe it... I'm still questioning it's viability in supporting a population in trillions especially if you're trying to support the "self-sufficient" concept.
Wonder what Brussie had to say about this since he had a problem of 90M being supported on an individual world, quite rightly in my mind...
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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 4:09:40 GMT -5
The planet Earth Self-sufficient, the only thing it needs from elsewhere is Sun light.
If you rolled the blast doors shut on the Bio-Sphere it would continue indefinitely as nothing can leave. If each family replaces those who die, it ticks along just fine for I imagine a few generations at least. The only external requirement it power for the lighting: a Sun substitute.
The Empire built warp engines, are you 100% sure that they can't build an enclosed system? We can envision one of those now, and have even attempted it in real life*, no one is building warp engines.
*Eden project – failed, but this design isn't in anyway similar.
As a design, I'm very curious as to the specific problems you foresee so I can fit the design to counter them (add your thoughts to the STCS as it were). Is there anything specific areas that you think will cause the self-sufficient angle of Bio-Spheres to fail?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 4:19:58 GMT -5
I'm suspicious of any system - fictional or otherwise - the claims to be totally self-sufficient. Sheer entropy comes into play, for one. Heck, I tend to have a very pro-eldar stance but I don't assume that their habitats are "self-sufficient" in the way that you seem to be suggesting... although they have a slightly better chance since they don't have such a population load.
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Post by Philip on Jul 15, 2004 4:45:56 GMT -5
Would you accept that even with entropy, that this type of Bio-Sphere would not require regular (daily) imports of food?
Could the only imports into the Bio-Sphere be to offset the entropy angle, such a new light bulb (manufactured 'in Hive', via materials mined on the same planet), a replacement tool bits?
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