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Post by Philip on Feb 9, 2005 16:24:16 GMT -5
Well yes, but the story clearly states ( ) that their rationale for calling "Horus" the False Emperor is simply by merit of Horus' "spell" lifting from them (after all, they were under mind control!!! ) after they were hounded to the Eye (and from thence being driven insane by the Long War so that it's one of the few things they remember) and him not being the Emperor because, oops, they were all loyalists being driven slowly insane now. I don't think it really works either, but that seems to be the story.... They are all loyalist? If that was the case and the ‘spell’ (spells? In 40K?) was lifted and they all reverted to being loyalists, wouldn’t they be a tad regretful, feel ashamed of what they had done and all in all stop fighting those who where loyal? If they reverted to being loyal and where at heart loyal all along, as soon as the spell wore of they would have put down their weapons as their iron will kicked in, and refuse to fire on another marine (even if it meant their own death). A loyal marine would never allow Chaos to use them a pawns in such a brash manner. We're overlooking the possibility that this was never the plan and that Horus took power for himself and let the other traitor primarchs be ousted by the loyalists. Hence they despise him more than the Emperor and furthermore know the truth. So why would Horus act like the Emperor? Soul binding, Astronomican, all those Emperor only tricks that only the Emperor can do. After all it takes an act of will to transmit the Astronomican, if it was Horus he could bring the Imperium to a crashing halt by not transmitting. Then the Chaos legions (with the aid of the Chaos God) could travel to earth unopposed, and a new Imperial Order set up. All Astropaths would be Psykers who have had their mind invaded by Horus, even if Horus could soul bind them, they would all be tainted with Chaos. I think this would make them more susceptible to Chaos not less. It seems unlikely that such an unstable situation could have be plodding along for 10,000 years! We are talking about Chaos here, not the Necrons.
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 9, 2005 16:39:24 GMT -5
Horus has exactly what he wants - dominion over Man. Who cares who they think he is? The important thing is that he's in a position of power and he benefits most from maintaining it as it is.
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Post by DesertGhostExarch on Feb 9, 2005 17:11:45 GMT -5
wouldn’t they be a tad regretful, feel ashamed of what they had done and all in all stop fighting those who where loyal? Hence the "driven insane" part. Yeah, it boils down to "the Chaos Gods did it!" but, erm, so does the Heresy itself almost....
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Post by Philip on Feb 9, 2005 18:22:30 GMT -5
Horus has exactly what he wants - dominion over Man. Who cares who they think he is? The important thing is that he's in a position of power and he benefits most from maintaining it as it is. Who cares? How about the Chaos Gods themselves. And as I said before, where did Horus get these Emperor like powers? If it’s from the Chaos Gods, his patrons, the ones he owes big time, then the Chaos Gods have am awful lot of hold over him. Given the situation, the Imperium would have fallen a long time ago. You can’t make deals with Chaos and then back peddle, Horus owes a soul and to keep it will cost him and the Imperium dear.
Hence the "driven insane" part. Yeah, it boils down to "the Chaos Gods did it!" but, erm, so does the Heresy itself almost.... Driven insane? When the spell wears off, they aren’t in the eye of terror, they become lucid and would realise what has happened (the Chaos emblems on their armour would be a give away, and the first thing they would remove). As it was a spell, the legions weren’t actually converted to Chaos and the marines would go back to being loyal marines. They wouldn’t go insane, just start flagellating themselves and beg forgiveness. If the Dark Angel can beg forgiveness, so can the rest of the,. I would point out that these types of ‘spell’ do not exist in 40K.
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Post by DesertGhostExarch on Feb 9, 2005 18:36:25 GMT -5
And as I said before, where did Horus get these Emperor like powers? The only sticky problem between the two is the soul-binding, as the Astronomican seems to be able to function even without the Emperor's guidance. But yes...there are a lot of holes one could shoot this theory with, which is kinda one of the reasons the story suffers from pushing the theory to the exclusion of telling the story--the reader will be too incredulous, so the author just tries harder and harder to rationalize things, really only making it worse.... /As it was a spell, the legions weren’t actually converted to Chaos and the marines would go back to being loyal marines./ Yes. But the story as written notes that they were chased to the Eye of Terror as the spell wore off. It's also rather odd that, in addition to the mentioned "spell," there are a few throwaway references to daemonic possession. Hmm.... /If the Dark Angel can beg forgiveness/ When have the DA "begged"?
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 9, 2005 19:33:22 GMT -5
Since when are they Emperor-like if he died in M30? I can't believe you're confused on this. Horus has those powers because he's Horus and he's fed a thousand souls every day. It's not a great stretch.
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Post by Philip on Feb 9, 2005 19:43:02 GMT -5
Since when are they Emperor-like if he died in M30? I can't believe you're confused on this. Horus has those powers because he's Horus and he's fed a thousand souls every day. So he’s a great big 'daemon' and as such can perform soul binding. Again, why would he do this? It's not a great stretch. It is, if you consider the consequences.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 9, 2005 22:29:00 GMT -5
Yes, spells in 40k. Despite the knee jerk reaction against it as not "psychic" enough, it's just a name for a process which engenders a specific reaction and which may or may not involve material components, esoteric actions, or whatever. Given the descriptions of many of the effects in the 40k universe 'psychic powers' operate in many the same way as spells do in other game universe... they just call it something different. So call it psychic power, psyker ability, spell, or whatever. It's all the same thing. The only thing that changes is what you're saying about the person that is wielding the power. If you say someone utilises a psychic ability, well that's all good well. For a human of the Imperium they're going to be 'sanctioned' in some way. If you say sometime uses a "spell", then you're basically calling them a 'witch', 'warlock' or what-no... that has a whole different connotation. It doesn't matter that they all utilises their abilities in, for the most part, the same way! I'm not disagreeing with you. I'd like to say once again that I just liked the premise, not that I utilised it in my own interpretation of the 40k universe. Anyway, while the Astronomican is described as requiring the Emperor's mind to transmit there is always some lattitude of interpretation (i.e. what happened before he plugged himself in), etc. With Soul Binding, however, all we know is that the Emperor is involved not that he must be involved. Are you not assuming that he would want to do that? Furthermore that turning of the Astronomican has the massive impact that you suggest... Oh, but I forget. In your interpretation of the 40k universe all warp travel requires a Navigator (hence the Astronomican) and an Astropath (hence the Emperor). I don't buy that, but there we go. <grin> Why not. The Imperium has done so and exists in the long term by GW fiant. You're talking about the whole argument that "Only the Emperor can project the Astronomican and perform Soul Binding and, therefore, since the entity that is on the Golden Throne performs these things then they must be the Emperor"? Do you not think that, then, such an entity would resist the final death? Would not want their soul to enter into the warp to be consumed and tormented for all eternity by those dread Ruinous Powers? You're 40k and how you select to see it. All it comes down to is packaging: Image. Ultimately the inside remains the same, you're just changing the outside. A good point... And, of course, there is nothing to say that the Horus-Emperor doesn't actually siphen off some of the energy of the Astronomican... It's conspiracy theory 40k style! I don't buy on it if, but... Only daemons can perform 'soul binding'? It's not actually clear what the 'soul binding' ritual does in the 'fluff' except "giving the psyker some of the strength of the Emperor" which can mean anything, but almost certainly doesn't translate to immunity. Ah well...
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Post by Philip on Feb 9, 2005 22:46:51 GMT -5
Yes, spells in 40k. Despite the knee jerk reaction against it as not "psychic" enough, it's just a name for a process which engenders a specific reaction and which may or may not involve material components, esoteric actions, or whatever. Given the descriptions of many of the effects in the 40k universe 'psychic powers' operate in many the same way as spells do in other game universe... they just call it something different. So call it psychic power, psyker ability, spell, or whatever. It's all the same thing. Actually I was talking about ‘this spell’ the one that fogs the mind of half the Space Marine legions. The amount of power needed to be channelled from the warp to perform this would be astronomical, and it would have to keep of being channelled as I’m sure the Marines will resist will all their might. As for spells in general, I don’t think they really suit 40K but there again I don’t think psionics suit either. Spells channel magic (a match!) but the magical effect can hang about which is not really like Psyker powers. Psyker powers only really last while channelling. For example, and a ‘magic lock’ (stays in effect after cast) this isn’t possible with Psyker powers. This makes it sound like psionics, but psionics is the power of the mind, and Psykers channel warp energy not mind power. To me, and from what I see of 40K, Psyker powers aren’t wholly one or the other. One thing is for certain; for Horus to use direct mind (to mind) control to force 9 legions to follow Chaos is a bit over powered.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 9, 2005 22:51:40 GMT -5
I still don't agree with the requirement to recreate 'psyker' powers merely because of a semantic preference, but there we go. As to the other, my bad. I'll agree with you on that one... that kind of 'spell' is practically entital in scope.
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Post by Philip on Feb 9, 2005 23:01:05 GMT -5
I still don't agree with the requirement to recreate 'psyker' powers merely because of a semantic preference, but there we go. It not semantic, spells and psionic are different in flavour and Psyker powers are different yet again. As to the other, my bad. I'll agree with you on that one... that kind of 'spell' is practically entital in scope. Entital?
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 10, 2005 4:41:00 GMT -5
I've already said this; If Horus was on the Golden Throne it's in his interests to keep the Imperium functioning. Only as it is does he have the worship of all mankind. Only as it is does he get the boon of the Black Ship harvest. Only as it is can he stand apart from the Gods of Chaos and not be ruled by them.
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Post by Philip on Feb 10, 2005 6:24:50 GMT -5
Only as it is can he stand apart from the Gods of Chaos and not be ruled by them. The Chaos Gods corrupted him, they broke him, he was nothing more than a puppet that got played. If Horus did all this without the Chaos Gods: then maybe, but the Gods made him what he is, they already had their claws in him, and the only reason he could stand against the Emperor is because of the power the Chaos Gods lent him. Once on the throne it would be no different to having the Chaos Gods themselves on the throne, and will it could be argued that the Chaos Gods want humanity to suffer and therefore fuel their powers with the subsequent outpouring of emotion (much like the Matrix, humans are batteries and all that) the truth is the Chaos Gods want to consume the materium, not feed of it. Once consumed the Gods would be free. It a fun idea, but it really doesn’t fit – other than a device of Chaos manipulation. ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 10, 2005 7:40:52 GMT -5
While it is true that there is a slight difference in 'flavour', and indeed scope, it is fairly easy to moderate any such differences. Again, it's in the packaging not what is beneath. Narrative can be as superficial as much as art... and as deep as it needs to be! My bad. A specific reference to power levels brought over from MYTHUS: Dangerous Journeys in which you have Mundane, Supernatural and Entital going up the scale. [qoute] Originally posted by Sojourner: I've already said this; If Horus was on the Golden Throne it's in his interests to keep the Imperium functioning. [/quote] Yep, and even the 'myths' about the Emperor (Star Child, Many Mind, etc.) can be explained by a Horusian perspective. But, at the end, the Chaos Gods left Horus. If the Emperor's will had buckled at the end, what might have happened? Would Horus have held back as the Emperor did given what he had done? There might have been understanding in the Emperor's gaze, but true forgiveness? How could Horus have been sure that the shift in emotion would have remained? Again, I'm not agreeing with it but still... Despite a continuing effort seemingly by an expanding fraction of the fan-dom, the 40k universe is not two-dimensional! And they're not? I agree and disagree. It is a fun idea and does fit, at least as well as retroactively introducing the C'tan, etc., in such a way as everything is taken back to the start and the world changes.
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Post by Philip on Feb 10, 2005 8:19:14 GMT -5
While it is true that there is a slight difference in 'flavour', and indeed scope, it is fairly easy to moderate any such differences. Again, it's in the packaging not what is beneath. Narrative can be as superficial as much as art... and as deep as it needs to be! Well I agree in part, of Psionics and Magic, psionics is the closer match as it could be argued that warp power is no more than mind power. Magic – cast and remains in effect (all genres that use magic seem to have this effect: that once magic is cast it can ‘hang about’ without further input. Even ‘wishes’ fall into this category, as do ‘love spells’ etc.). Psionics? Psyker – Last as long as it in concentrated on and power is actively channelled (or until fatigue consumes). This may be narrative, but it is also conceptual. Magic is used differently in fantasy compared to psionics. I am well aware that your 40K system uses ‘magic’ to model Psyker powers, and as I said before I don’t think it fits. Looking at the concepts of the two, psionics may produce effects that are similar to temporary or instantaneous spells, but they can’t produce the full range of spells. Psionics is far more limited than magic in scope. Anyway… But, at the end, the Chaos Gods left Horus. If the Emperor's will had buckled at the end, what might have happened? Would Horus have held back as the Emperor did given what he had done? There might have been understanding in the Emperor's gaze, but true forgiveness? How could Horus have been sure that the shift in emotion would have remained? That’s just chopping and changing to suit, if the story is rewritten with Horus on the Throne, when would Chaos leave him? Do you really think Tzeentch wouldn’t have seen it coming? Its conspiracy for conspiracy sake. [/li][li]If the Emperor was beaten and Horus lived, why pretend anything? This would make Horus victorious and the master of all. [/li][li]If Horus was beaten too, and unconscious he isn’t using any Psyker powers, the only way Hours could get onto the Throne by accident is by the will of the Chaos Gods. The Chaos Gods would have to intervene and affect the minds of those who took the body. [/li][li] If Hours was badly wounded and very weak, and lost all the powers the Chaos Gods had granted him, and the Chaos Gods had truly deserted him, then how would he have the power to affect the minds of those who find them. [/li][li] And finally, if there is an explanation that covers all of this: what would the other Primarchs think when they saw Horus sitting on the Throne?
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