|
Post by RascalLeader on Jan 18, 2005 9:34:56 GMT -5
From the link it does not give a very complete picture of how it could work; but it seems another one of the scatter gun approch to Geneneering. It would be okay when your building from the ground up but not when radically changing an already formed genetic structure.
Thats why I prefer Retroviruses instead, even if it is 'old hat'. It seems the only process widespread enoght that it could atleast 80% of the host.
How can they be human? When you add anything they would become a completly different speices. Think about the differents between apes and humans; thats what 3% genetic difference?
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 18, 2005 10:16:16 GMT -5
From the link it does not give a very complete picture of how it could work; but it seems another one of the scatter gun approch to Geneneering. I think it is far from a scatter gun approach (after all that is the whole point of this particular technology), and for more info all you had to do was click the FAQ. Thats why I prefer Retroviruses instead, even if it is 'old hat'. It seems the only process widespread enoght that it could atleast 80% of the host. Geneseed makes the Meganuclease which then cuts the DNA. How can they be human? When you add anything they would become a completly different speices. Think about the differents between apes and humans; thats what 3% genetic difference? The actual process I’ve outline modifies the sex chromosomes (specifically Y), which would make the marine a third ‘sex’ (angel ). People with genetic defects on the sex chromosomes are still human (YYX – super male syndrome etc.) the marine would fall into this category. They are not a new species, and considering the technique I proposed (it is using existing 'junk' DNA) the genetic finger print is near identical, apart from the modified Y chromosome. As for the modification in action, just as the human male body undergoes a transformation during puberty and takes on male characteristics, so marines in effect undergo a second transformation and take on ‘angel’ characteristics.
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jan 18, 2005 10:56:10 GMT -5
I really do not like the approach of mking them a new sex...
The way I have always seen it is that marines are biologically enhanced humans, gifted with 'genetically' engineered organs. It is the hyponotherapy that makes them 'inhuman'.
Space Marines are not genetically engineered soldiers, just the organs they carry. They become inhuman in their emotions and behaviour, forgetting sex and other non desirable emotions a soldier wouldn't want.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 18, 2005 11:08:47 GMT -5
I really do not like the approach of mking them a new sex... Well they aren’t a new sex in the normal of the word. It is a little more complex than that, they have no mate and they can’t reproduce themselves. However new geneseed does grow inside them (linking into female genetics) so they can reproduce of a sorts. Kinda: they give there lives so new geneseed can be made. In a sense this gives them a heritage (it may even be the reason for marines recruiting form set worlds, though some do wander)
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jan 18, 2005 11:26:45 GMT -5
Far from it there is really very little 'junk' in the human genome, nearly all of it has a function. Protein coding, antigen coding, tRNA/rRNA/snRNA coding, promotors, repressors, enhancers, terminators and viral genes.
The DNA that doesn't do any of the above has played an important part in our development, allowing viral and transposon activity to muddle up the genome with little effect.
Adding the extra DNA you propose is just crazy. Yes, you get super males and super females if an extra sex chromosome is present. They are however infertile, nature's way of ensuring it doesn' become fixed in the population. Random duplication events during meiosis, where small sections of a chromosome are replicated, tend to have an almighty buggering up effect, essentially lethal, killing the sex cell. Adding a big bit to a sex chromosome would evoke the same response.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 18, 2005 11:38:32 GMT -5
Yah, that’s why I keep putting as ‘junk’.
And genetic defect relating to sex chromosomes it doesn’t always mean a person is infertile (and if they did it would just add to the whole marines can’t have kids)
edit; Oh, the extra bit on the Y, makes it the same length as the X (but a Z – coz it weird), women don’t seem to have a problem with two Xs so a marine can manage with XZ, and remember the geneseed is supplying the hormones etc and orchestrating the whole show.
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jan 18, 2005 16:23:17 GMT -5
Polyploidy in sex chromosomes does in nearly all cases result in sterility.
XXY - Kleinfelter's Syndrome = Sterile male with female secondary sexual chracteristics ie breasts and hips
XYY - Super Male = Larger stronger, usually sterile (interesting could make a non - space marine uber-soldier)
XXX - Super Female = Mental retardation, sterility
X - Turner Syndrome = Sterile, lack of developed sexual organs
I don't see the reasoning for having to add extra DNA to the Y chromosome? One of the geneseed organs is a hormone secretory complex isn't it? Why not have this secrete anything the marine needs, and not make up some fuddy duddy scientific idea for getting the marines own body to make the hormones.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 19, 2005 11:05:11 GMT -5
I don't see the reasoning for having to add extra DNA to the Y chromosome? Read the BL post. One of the geneseed organs is a hormone secretory complex isn't it? In my theory, the geneseed relates to the ‘Progenoids’ all the others implants become ‘just implants’ (tagged stem cell?). Why not have this secrete anything the marine needs, It does in a sense, but it needs the modified chromosome to work. See below. scientific idea for getting the marines own body to make the hormones. It’s a little more complex than that, I would say the hormones are made by the geneseed/ Progenoids, and the modified chromosome - Z - (along with other sites also modified) produce the proteins. The geneseed controls and the body builds.
OffT Polyploidy in sex chromosomes does in nearly all cases result in sterility. Nearly being the operative word. As the modified Y isn’t adding an extra chromosome this is off topic, but I did do research before coming up with my design so I know you are incorrect in your assumptions. XXY - Kleinfelter's Syndrome = Sterile male with female secondary sexual chracteristics ie breasts and hips ‘In a very small number of cases, XXY males have been able to father children’ Source XYY - Super Male = Larger stronger, usually sterile (interesting could make a non - space marine uber-soldier) ‘They are usually fertile and lead ordinary lives as adults.’ Source XXX - Super Female = Mental retardation, sterility ‘They have normal development of sexual characteristics and are fertile.’ SourceX - Turner Syndrome = Sterile, lack of developed sexual organs This isn’t Polyploidy.
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jan 19, 2005 14:23:55 GMT -5
Ok, are having the marines body contribute cells that develop into the progenoids?
"Why not have this secrete anything the marine needs"
I still do not understand why any of the human's genome needs to be modified by the implants, or at least the Progenoid, to convert them into a space marine.
I am going to re-read everything and then try and figure it all out.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 19, 2005 17:22:42 GMT -5
<grin> Isn't discussion wonderful. Still say that it's almost completely unnecessary but you see adamant on fundamentally changing the Marines into circular-chested third-sex species so... whatever you want.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 19, 2005 17:48:13 GMT -5
<grin> Isn't discussion wonderful. Sure is, the feedback has on the most part been helpful. Still say that it's almost completely unnecessary but you see adamant on fundamentally changing the Marines No, just defining them. into circular-chested third-sex species so... Have you actually been reading my posts - circular-chested = no (near spherical rib cage maybe, but not the outward appearance of the chest)
- third-sex = no (isn’t really a definition for what I’ve come up with, but they aren’t a third sex)
- new species = no (definitely no)
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jan 20, 2005 6:13:10 GMT -5
Haha
The real progress of science occurs through the method discussion with ones fellow peers.
Hmmmm 2005 Nobel Prize for Medicine and Physiology
Awarded to Tynesh and Philip for their
"Definitions and advancements of understanding in the field of geneseed and the Adeptus Astartes
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jan 20, 2005 8:27:06 GMT -5
*Protests vehemently*
I'm sure I've explained my views on gene-seed thoroughly elsewhere and possibly in summary on this thread and as such I'm still not convinced that anything to do with chromosome tampering is either feasible or necessary. Sorry, another 'no' vote for the retrovirus-or-similar process here.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 20, 2005 8:39:40 GMT -5
Haha The real progress of science occurs through the method discussion with ones fellow peers. Hmmmm 2005 Nobel Prize for Medicine and Physiology Awarded to Tynesh and Philip for their "Definitions and advancements of understanding in the field of geneseed and the Adeptus Astartes You glory seeker! Surely Philip and Tynesh? Would you like your name on the Noble prize too? I'm sure I've explained my views on gene-seed thoroughly elsewhere and possibly in summary on this thread and as such I'm still not convinced that anything to do with chromosome tampering is either feasible or necessary. Oh, ah well, don’t worry this will not affect Anargo, all your stuff is still valid. Sorry, another 'no' vote for the retrovirus-or-similar process here. Who said anything about a retrovirus or similar process? We’ll have no viruses here.
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Jan 20, 2005 18:08:35 GMT -5
Thanks did not know that. However even that Philip its not exacally the most informative FAQ. I can understand the princible but it lacks detail. For instance they don't actully explain the delivery method. Without that it still seems the rather scatter gun approch to doing it. How many times the Meganucleases method must be used? It targets speicifc areas rather then complelty effects the host invoved. On something as complex as a human this would not be the best method. Imagine you make the mussels 10X stronger, thats all well and fine but then the bones snap. Then the effect of these changed tissues will effect the persons metabolism. This list goes on, meaning that you would have to have thousands of tiny little changes going on everywhere instead of one smooth edit to the genetic structures. That is not to say Meganucleases is usless, but it needs a much better delivery system then just being realised into the body. Think how many times it would get lost and go into all the wrong places. A retrovirus is a much better "Delivery" Method. It could attack each cell of the body and get passed on untill it was everywhere. These viruses could be triggered (Like the fluff states) so that they could suddenly start producing the relevent sections of genetic code that then can clamp onto their target sites. Their we go; a method that uses both of the suggestions . Its been in the fluff since 2nd Edition at least, although specific organs are replanted most of the chanages are genetic. If it was just implants why do the blood Angels use Exsanguination to 'activate' their marines? Oh and Can I have a Nobel Prize as well? ;D
|
|