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Post by Philip on Jan 16, 2005 18:19:51 GMT -5
Perhaps you could explain why it is more relevant, then? I was more interested it what everyone here thought, as to relevance to marines I would say it is as relevant as any other fluff written about them. I really don't feel like going to the BL forums at the moment when discussion can continue here. If nothing else it always gives you more ammunition for the BL thread... I think the thread has ended unless someone comes up with a reason it can’t work, it fulfils my design goals - it doesn’t fly in the face of modern genetics and seems feasible (in a fantasy type way). Also it makes the geneseed a fundamental part of the process, whereas other genetic tampering ideas seem to exclude it in function and include it in name only. Other than that is seems done and dusted.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 17, 2005 4:53:42 GMT -5
Sojourner: Acting as the voice of Kage's tactless side since 12/23/03!
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Post by Philip on Jan 17, 2005 7:12:49 GMT -5
Like the Mouth of Sauron!
;D
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jan 17, 2005 7:32:42 GMT -5
SPAM!!
spamspamspamspam...... ;D ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 11:22:15 GMT -5
I think the thread has ended unless someone comes up with a reason it can’t work, it fulfils my design goals - it doesn’t fly in the face of modern genetics and seems feasible (in a fantasy type way). It just isn't 'fluffy'. Kage
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Post by Philip on Jan 17, 2005 11:31:13 GMT -5
If you mean like a ‘rabbit’ then no, but it is a very nice bit of background - if I do say so myself. ;D Probably not one for Anargo (just yet anyway, if it became cannon in say 5E, would the holistic approach still apply? ) Anyway this is a little Off Topic.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 12:31:22 GMT -5
Probably not one for Anargo (just yet anyway, if it became cannon in say 5E, would the holistic approach still apply? ) Not really since it is in direct contradiction to previous 'fluff' (kinda; see Cup of Wulfen as 'get out clause'), does little to add to the background, etc.
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Post by Philip on Jan 17, 2005 12:45:32 GMT -5
I thought you wanted more detailed 40K background?
In designing a system we have to give thought to the details, the old fluff was fuzzy at best and based or outdated technology. This new stuff I have come up with doesn’t fly in face of science, but at the same time it ‘black boxes’ the more complex areas (I’m sure no one is really interested in the actual genetics of it all, only that the premise is possible as opposed to unfounded speculation).
Yes there was a list of implants and what they did but the methods and descriptions of the process needs updating. For example: Jules Verne’s method of shooting rockets to the moon is no longer believable by a contemporary audience, as such they are not used in 40K because people know it will not work.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 13:35:14 GMT -5
I thought you wanted more detailed 40K background? I do and, yes, I know that I'm walking a fine line (of hypocrisy) here but it has to be appropriate and "'fluffalogical". Even though you say that the old 'fluff' was "fuzzy at best", I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the whole progenoid gig was a bit of a hand-wave, but otherwise the organs were just bionetic implants. Chemotheraphy was used to explain tissue rejection and, whammo, you had your Marine that was modified from the original. If there was any problems it was mostly from having a 'solid chest', but there we go. There really is really no need to introduce a genetic component sufficient to make them, in essence, a different species. So, yes, the more background information the merrier. But there should be a reason for it. Going to such extremes to give a reason why Marines do not have children when one word explains it all (read: "celibacy") is, for me, unnecessary and not "fluffalogical". ...best and based or outdated technology. Gengineered bionetic organs outmoded? Wow... Technology has come along in the past five minutes. I know they said progress happened quickly but that takes the biscuit! ...but at the same time it ‘black boxes’ the more complex areas... All very nice but, again, it's unnecessary. Very unnecessary. Marines are traditionally celebate. That doesn't mean that they cannot do anything, just that they don't. If drugs do interfere with the functioning then come off the crugs and you begin to function again... Only problem is that your exotic metabolism then goes funny. Al rather simple without the requirement of inventing genetically modified separate species...
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Post by Tynesh on Jan 17, 2005 15:02:47 GMT -5
Give me a week and I shall attempt to tackle the subject as scientifically as I can.
There are lots of fluff concepts on Marines that give an idea of what geneseed, and organs could entail.
#Cough, Cough#
Studying Human Genetics, hopefully to PhD level, an interest in Space Marines, Eugenics, Genetic Tech and a desire to conquer the world.
I think I may be the rule of exception ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 15:13:05 GMT -5
Give me a week and I shall attempt to tackle the subject as scientifically as I can. Although that is part of the problem. Ah well... I look forward to seeing what you produce. Kage
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Post by Zholud on Jan 17, 2005 15:35:34 GMT -5
If you are interested in my thoughts, Philip, here they are in brief: - can Marines have children? – no, because chemical therapy make them infertile. I guess that moral issues, celibacy of warrior-monk image and so on is not enough to drop possibility to get healthy stock from ones, who get implants and survived – thus better candidates for SM
- Are SM interested in sex – no, they don’t get any kind of natural drive because their basic instincts are shifted.
- Are they species apart – I guess no. magus with bionics is not a space apart, guy with changed heart is not new specie either. Even a person with sex shift is not a new species.
- Are they 3rd sex – no, unless you have some new definition on what does it mean
- Does gene-seed affect metabolism – yes. Otherwise why keep them in Marine and not in special vat. Without them organism fails.
- Why they are inserted/implanted so late – before that time he gets chemical therapy which can harm gene-seed.
- Age of Marines – for me they can be immortal just like the Emperor. For me it was his physical feat and not psy-influence…
- SM have different metabolism, but the same can be said about people with diabetes mellitus. Even if they are changed by kind of retrovirus, there genetic code remains.
Should I drop it at BL forum too?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 17:39:52 GMT -5
If we consider each of Zholud's points a number, such that the first bullet point is '1', the second '2', and so on then: Point 1While I actually put the 'tradition' of being a Marine to be of greater importance, I'd agree. Once the Marine has been selected they are essentially lost as breeding stock. Heck, one could bring in the whole 'Deathwing' imagery here... Point 2Agreed. Point 3Agreed. Point 4 Agreed. Point 5Out of interest, what are you defining as 'geneseed'. This is about the only really hazy part of the 'fluff'. Point 6I would imagine that chemotherapy occurs throughout the lifetime of the Marine. Point 7Disagree with the fact that Marines can be immortal. I'm not saying that the immortality of the Emperor was necessarily related to his psychic abilities, although that would be the most obvious suggestion (read: Grandfather from the Traveller setting), but that this 'information' is not what the Emperor and his scientists encoded into the Marines. Indeed, the concept of an 'immortality gene' is something that I find kind of... silly. Ha! But this comes from someone who uses magic and RPG to represent a fictional universe and has somewhat lengthy discussions over both! In other words, take with a pinch of salt! Point 8Still not overtly fond of the idea that they are modified genetically, but there we go.
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Post by Philip on Jan 17, 2005 19:01:57 GMT -5
I do and, yes, I know that I'm walking a fine line (of hypocrisy) here but it has to be appropriate and "'fluffalogical". Even though you say that the old 'fluff' was "fuzzy at best", I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, the whole progenoid gig was a bit of a hand-wave, but otherwise the organs were just bionetic implants. Chemotheraphy was used to explain tissue rejection and, whammo… Whammo about covers it as the marine drops to his knees and dies from the flu. Gengineered bionetic organs outmoded? Wow... Technology has come along in the past five minutes. I know they said progress happened quickly but that takes the biscuit! You mean Bionetics like cybernetics? Like A heart transplant. It is not obsolete in current medicine but it is hardly sci-fi. Artificial hearts are more sci-fi and has less chance of rejection. As for gene-engineered implants we may be getting somewhere, but the implant would have to be a chimera (to preserve purity of the geneseed) See BL. Give me a week and I shall attempt to tackle the subject as scientifically as I can. Give the BL thread the once over and wade in, I look forward to hearing what you have to say Should I drop it at BL forum too? Yah! why not, more the merrier. ;D 1 - no 2 - no 3 - no 4 - maybe, the introduction of Z-Chromosome would suggest yes, but what would they mate with? This could be answered in a round about way by the fact that marines give rise to new geneseed (a birth of a sorts) so they could be considered a very odd form of hermaphrodite, but they in effect have neither sex or reproduce. 5 - yes 6 - implanted at puberty would be the best choice design wise. 7 - 500-600 years, apart form blood angels which can live much longer (but don’t due to the RAGE!!) 8 -Yes they are still human.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 17, 2005 23:26:22 GMT -5
Whammo about covers it as the marine drops to his knees and dies from the flu. 40k "chemotherapy", i.e. a reference to the chemical cocktail they take, rather than the specific reference to the treatment for cancer with horrendously debilitating efects. You mean Bionetics like cybernetics? Like A heart transplant. [/quote Bionetics are to 'heart transplants' as a wooden prosthetic is to cybernetics (i.e. " Six Million Dollar Man" approach). So, no, not a heart transplant. The organs themselves are 'genetically engineered' but that does not make the Marines the same! It is not obsolete in current medicine but it is hardly sci-fi. Artificial hearts are more sci-fi and has less chance of rejection. See the above... and potentially read a bit more Gibson, Sterling, etc. As for gene-engineered implants we may be getting somewhere... We were already there. The Marine implants have always been like this (or at least reasonably so!)...
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