Post by Kage2020 on Jan 3, 2005 23:00:37 GMT -5
On numerous occassions what I'm actually after with regards to the 'fluff' has been questioned. Normally it is through my inability to explain directly what I'm after and sometimes because someone is trying to make a point about how something is wrong or right, or whatever.
I posted this as a quick, immediate reply on another board in response to the question of the eldar use of robotics which was going down rather standard lines. I'll post the original quote, though I forget the source (methinks it was a Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine or one of the supplements or WD articles), and you will see that it is a very fine distinction. Perhaps even so fine a distinction as to be non-existent, but it shows one potential means by which all the editions can be used to create a holistic approach to the 'fluff' rather than going, "Erm, no, they've already worked like it says in xE codex..."
Anyway, the original unedited post follows:
Rather than making sweeping statements as to why the eldar don't currently use robots, perhaps it is more reasonable to look at the 'history' of the 40k 'fluff'. The "Torturer's Tale" indicates that at one time (pre-Fall) they did use artificial constructions. These were 'robots' in much the same way as we think of them, perhaps even shading towards Von Neumann machines which might reasonably have been in their technological grasp.
Then came the Fall. We understand that 'Seers' foresaw the Fall, one of the reasons for - some argue - the construction of new craftworlds as well as the increased exodus out of the core empire... Slaanesh is born but, at this time, do they have an analogue for the Infinity Circuit up and running? (Something I still see as being based on the more 'primitive' World Spirit.) Perhaps not. Perhaps the Tuisich Novasmair were an intermediate period, one where the 'soul' must have been directly grafted into a machine before life departed... these broken, once dead warriors were truly 'Phoenix Warriors' (rather than the Phoenix Lords!
) It is not certain whether the eldar still operate significant quantities of autonomous robots, since if they were that important to society (i.e. leading to the hedonomis) then the 'blue prints' (to use an obvious, if misleading, term) in the pre-Fall period it is possible that they would have been used in the interim period between peri-Fall and post-Fall craftworld society.
Eventually post-Fall society matures and the Infinity Circuit - and hence the Eternal Matrix - is developed. The basic premise of the Failleanam is extended to the Waystones, etc. Perhaps even some of the Tuisich Novasmair could be recovered from their eternal prison... Indeed, using this model one could wonder whether it still might be used.
Anyway, the C'tan and the Necrons once again arise. Kind of like robots, are they not. Perhaps there is a global spread of distrust of the 'machine' and a shift away because of problems with them... Were they vulnerable to TEMPEST hacking or the equivalent?
Just a thought, since I prefer to integrate all the 'fluff' rather than just take the latest revision!
Now the original 'fluff' quite is quite simple, discussing some of the premises behind Titans and, admittedly, it does mention the 'Infinity Circuit'. But we're also talking about the 'ghost warriors', the things that people associate with robots for the eldar more often than not.
Anyway, that quote is:
I underlined the section that I liked. It is mention of the Failleanam and the 'mindless husk' which is subtley different to the descriptions of death and the Waystone. There is the implication of the imperfect passing of life... Again it is a fine distinction but with a bit of 'imagination' - whether you agree with this example or not - it indicates that the various editions, in this case first through third (I believe) can be made to work and the 'fluff' deepened as a result.
Right, I shall go back to sitting in the corner and rocking, desparate with my feverish plan of moving things forward but not wanting to appear to be the dictatorial overlord. <sigh>
Kage
I posted this as a quick, immediate reply on another board in response to the question of the eldar use of robotics which was going down rather standard lines. I'll post the original quote, though I forget the source (methinks it was a Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine or one of the supplements or WD articles), and you will see that it is a very fine distinction. Perhaps even so fine a distinction as to be non-existent, but it shows one potential means by which all the editions can be used to create a holistic approach to the 'fluff' rather than going, "Erm, no, they've already worked like it says in xE codex..."
Anyway, the original unedited post follows:
Rather than making sweeping statements as to why the eldar don't currently use robots, perhaps it is more reasonable to look at the 'history' of the 40k 'fluff'. The "Torturer's Tale" indicates that at one time (pre-Fall) they did use artificial constructions. These were 'robots' in much the same way as we think of them, perhaps even shading towards Von Neumann machines which might reasonably have been in their technological grasp.
Then came the Fall. We understand that 'Seers' foresaw the Fall, one of the reasons for - some argue - the construction of new craftworlds as well as the increased exodus out of the core empire... Slaanesh is born but, at this time, do they have an analogue for the Infinity Circuit up and running? (Something I still see as being based on the more 'primitive' World Spirit.) Perhaps not. Perhaps the Tuisich Novasmair were an intermediate period, one where the 'soul' must have been directly grafted into a machine before life departed... these broken, once dead warriors were truly 'Phoenix Warriors' (rather than the Phoenix Lords!
) It is not certain whether the eldar still operate significant quantities of autonomous robots, since if they were that important to society (i.e. leading to the hedonomis) then the 'blue prints' (to use an obvious, if misleading, term) in the pre-Fall period it is possible that they would have been used in the interim period between peri-Fall and post-Fall craftworld society.Eventually post-Fall society matures and the Infinity Circuit - and hence the Eternal Matrix - is developed. The basic premise of the Failleanam is extended to the Waystones, etc. Perhaps even some of the Tuisich Novasmair could be recovered from their eternal prison... Indeed, using this model one could wonder whether it still might be used.
Anyway, the C'tan and the Necrons once again arise. Kind of like robots, are they not. Perhaps there is a global spread of distrust of the 'machine' and a shift away because of problems with them... Were they vulnerable to TEMPEST hacking or the equivalent?
Just a thought, since I prefer to integrate all the 'fluff' rather than just take the latest revision!
Now the original 'fluff' quite is quite simple, discussing some of the premises behind Titans and, admittedly, it does mention the 'Infinity Circuit'. But we're also talking about the 'ghost warriors', the things that people associate with robots for the eldar more often than not.
Anyway, that quote is:
Originally published... somewhere:
Most Eldar craft-worlds have their own Titan forces whose crews work together with an Infinity Circuit.
The Infinity Circuit is used in many forms by the Eldar, where other races would use computers and similar devices. Each Infinity Circuit is imprinted with the character and memories of a living Eldar through the process of 'soul-grafting' (Failleanam). The Eldar's body is left as a mindless husk, but his thoughts live on in the Infinity Circuit . Soul-grafting is seen as the ultimate sacrifice that an Eldar can make for his people, and the ancestors and relatives who live on within Infinity Circuits are treated with great respect. They are revered and marked by the title of Tuisich-Novasmair, which Imperial sources normally translate as Lord-Phoenix.
The Infinity Circuit of an Eldar titan is normally mounted in the centre of the crew compartment, and takes the form of a large and intricately faceted piece of carrecenad, the 'soul-stone' which forms the basis of Infinity Circuit technology. Unlike their Human counterparts, the crew of an Eldar Titan is not physically connected to the machine; smaller chips of stone set in headbands allow the crew to meld psychically with the Infinity Circuit and the highly-sophisticated Mind Impulse Units it controls.
An Eldar Phantom crewman is immediately recognisable by the Spitit Stone he wears upon hisforehead. Upon becoming a Titan crewman, a ceremonial band is wraped around the Eldar's head; almost immediately, the band bonds to his skull and sends tendrils into his brain. The headband bears a small chunk of Spirit Stone taken from the Titan that the Eldar is to serve. Upon taring his place in the cockpit, each crewman psychically links with the Titan using the fragment of the stone. In effect, the Titan and crew become a single entity. The band may only be removed upon the Eldar's death.
Like all Eldar, a Titan crewman bears a Spirit Stone on his chest that, upon his death, will preserve his spirit for a short time. The shape of this stone often reflects the symbol of the Eldar's clan: the Fir Lirithion, for instance, have heart-shaped stones.
Because of the close links that are required between the Titan's crewmembers and the Titan itself, it is usual for each crew to consist of Eldar from one family. This affords them a great deal of respect within the craft world's hierarchy, as a family must be truly worthy to serve in a Titan clan.
When in battle, each crewman wears a close-fitting boiler suit that contains the life-support systems he needs. His boots are made of a slightly adhesive substance that is ideal for moving around the organic tubes and passageways that cris-cross the Titan. When outside the Titan, each Eldar wears either a jacket or a coat for warmth. Like the boiler suit itself, these topcoats bear the Titan's rune and victory symbols on the left shoulder, and the Eldar's clan symbol on the back.
The Phantom has a crew of four - three living Eldar and one Infinity Circuit. The Infinity Circuit is normally mounted in the centre of the crew compartment in the Titan's head, and the living crew -frequently blood-relatives of the Infinity Circuit - occupy couches around it. Unlike their Human counterparts, they do not have specific functions. Each crew member is equipped with a headband in which is set a fragment of the carrecenad stone; by means of this they merge their minds with the Infinity Circuit, forming a composite mind capable of handling multiple thoughts and actions. This mind is linked to the Phantom's mechanical systems by Mind Impulse Units which are far in advance of those used by the Imperium. The relationship between a Phantom's living crew and its Infinity Circuit is intimate and all-sharing; they know each other totally, and are marked by their ability to finish each other's sentences and thoughts out loud. In any other Eldar, this would be unthinkable presumption, but Titan crews are know for the closeness they develop and the eccentricities that arise from it. To Eldar outside the Titan Clans, they are almost a race apart.
Most Eldar craft-worlds have their own Titan forces whose crews work together with an Infinity Circuit.
The Infinity Circuit is used in many forms by the Eldar, where other races would use computers and similar devices. Each Infinity Circuit is imprinted with the character and memories of a living Eldar through the process of 'soul-grafting' (Failleanam). The Eldar's body is left as a mindless husk, but his thoughts live on in the Infinity Circuit . Soul-grafting is seen as the ultimate sacrifice that an Eldar can make for his people, and the ancestors and relatives who live on within Infinity Circuits are treated with great respect. They are revered and marked by the title of Tuisich-Novasmair, which Imperial sources normally translate as Lord-Phoenix.
The Infinity Circuit of an Eldar titan is normally mounted in the centre of the crew compartment, and takes the form of a large and intricately faceted piece of carrecenad, the 'soul-stone' which forms the basis of Infinity Circuit technology. Unlike their Human counterparts, the crew of an Eldar Titan is not physically connected to the machine; smaller chips of stone set in headbands allow the crew to meld psychically with the Infinity Circuit and the highly-sophisticated Mind Impulse Units it controls.
An Eldar Phantom crewman is immediately recognisable by the Spitit Stone he wears upon hisforehead. Upon becoming a Titan crewman, a ceremonial band is wraped around the Eldar's head; almost immediately, the band bonds to his skull and sends tendrils into his brain. The headband bears a small chunk of Spirit Stone taken from the Titan that the Eldar is to serve. Upon taring his place in the cockpit, each crewman psychically links with the Titan using the fragment of the stone. In effect, the Titan and crew become a single entity. The band may only be removed upon the Eldar's death.
Like all Eldar, a Titan crewman bears a Spirit Stone on his chest that, upon his death, will preserve his spirit for a short time. The shape of this stone often reflects the symbol of the Eldar's clan: the Fir Lirithion, for instance, have heart-shaped stones.
Because of the close links that are required between the Titan's crewmembers and the Titan itself, it is usual for each crew to consist of Eldar from one family. This affords them a great deal of respect within the craft world's hierarchy, as a family must be truly worthy to serve in a Titan clan.
When in battle, each crewman wears a close-fitting boiler suit that contains the life-support systems he needs. His boots are made of a slightly adhesive substance that is ideal for moving around the organic tubes and passageways that cris-cross the Titan. When outside the Titan, each Eldar wears either a jacket or a coat for warmth. Like the boiler suit itself, these topcoats bear the Titan's rune and victory symbols on the left shoulder, and the Eldar's clan symbol on the back.
The Phantom has a crew of four - three living Eldar and one Infinity Circuit. The Infinity Circuit is normally mounted in the centre of the crew compartment in the Titan's head, and the living crew -frequently blood-relatives of the Infinity Circuit - occupy couches around it. Unlike their Human counterparts, they do not have specific functions. Each crew member is equipped with a headband in which is set a fragment of the carrecenad stone; by means of this they merge their minds with the Infinity Circuit, forming a composite mind capable of handling multiple thoughts and actions. This mind is linked to the Phantom's mechanical systems by Mind Impulse Units which are far in advance of those used by the Imperium. The relationship between a Phantom's living crew and its Infinity Circuit is intimate and all-sharing; they know each other totally, and are marked by their ability to finish each other's sentences and thoughts out loud. In any other Eldar, this would be unthinkable presumption, but Titan crews are know for the closeness they develop and the eccentricities that arise from it. To Eldar outside the Titan Clans, they are almost a race apart.
I underlined the section that I liked. It is mention of the Failleanam and the 'mindless husk' which is subtley different to the descriptions of death and the Waystone. There is the implication of the imperfect passing of life... Again it is a fine distinction but with a bit of 'imagination' - whether you agree with this example or not - it indicates that the various editions, in this case first through third (I believe) can be made to work and the 'fluff' deepened as a result.
Right, I shall go back to sitting in the corner and rocking, desparate with my feverish plan of moving things forward but not wanting to appear to be the dictatorial overlord. <sigh>
Kage
