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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 28, 2004 0:02:56 GMT -5
Oh BTW this is Science Fiction, meaning it doesn't have to make sense:D The science bit of that title means that it should have a sense of scientific verisimilitude. The fiction means that you have a wider lattitude of interpretation. And it's science fantasy... <Nudges people to the more pressing and, for me, interesting threads>
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 28, 2004 0:04:06 GMT -5
Coming in from orbit gives you an insane amount of kinetic energy. Geostationary orbit for something as big as a thunderhawk would be something like 30,000km, as a guess. That's a lot of gravitational potential loss to convert to kinetic energy. Anyway, recall that the Shuttle isn't terribly aerodynamic. If anything, the thunderhawk must be less so in order to lose all that speed and slow to some sort of sensible maneuvering velocity. There's been a lot of time to discover materials durable enough to withstand the enormous heat - just plaster it with that, no power fields required. Though, a low-power air-displacing field might be helpful, and plausible. Scratch the thing about geostationary orbit - mass makes no difference... Double post...
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Post by Philip on Jul 28, 2004 13:42:31 GMT -5
The reason the Thunderhawk looks like it does is because the person who originally drew one had no understanding of what we are now talking about...ie basic physics. Every man child over the age of 1 gets the idea of aerodynamics! One thing about 40K is that it is purposefully short on technology facts, GW are not going to tell to everything and never in great detail. After all, machines are magic. If the Imperium uses powerfields and anti-gav that would make aerodynamics as we understand them obsolete. It would also make all the craft look completely different. And as I said before, wings are useless without atmosphere, and can you imagine how big those wings would have to be to provide enough lift to get a Thunderhawk of the ground? Its a tank! Sticking wings on an Abram M1 is not going to turn it into a F-22 Raptor, but, sticking powerfields and anti-grav on works a treat.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 29, 2004 0:28:56 GMT -5
This is like an argument about the 'celts'. Lots of different pieces of evidence, but none of them are considered at the same time...
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Post by Destecado on Jul 30, 2004 11:42:04 GMT -5
If the thunderhawk was just falling towards earth and landing to deploy its troops, I would agree with the description that likens it the Space Shuttle. The problem is that there are several descriptions of hovering Thunderhawks deploying Space Marines with jump packs (description of how they deep strike). While many Imperial vehicles are blockish, the fighters do have some of the basics of aerodinamics. www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/QUATERMASTERS_STORE_EPIC_40_000_IMPERIAL_NAVY_25.htmlEven the Valkyrie is slightly aerodynamic by comparison. A similar design for a new Thunderhawk could actually be based off of this design 9of course much larger in size). At the end of the wing tips you could have oversized vector thrust units. Two smaller pods could be mounted at the end of the tail section to provide lateral thrust and stablize the Thunderhawk when it fires its main cannon. The shield idea though interesting is beginning to make the Thunderhawk sound too much like a wave serpent. Remember, when you throw high technology into these vehicles, your going to have to repair it once the vehicle enters service. This may be one of the factors that makes the imperium employ standardization for their vehicles and governs the use of solid proven technologies over a high tech gadget that is tempermental and malfunctions frequently.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 30, 2004 11:49:31 GMT -5
That tends to lead to two conclusions, one they employ anti grav technology or two they use a very effective VTL system, if the engines are powerful enough then the latter is the more likly candidate as it is the lower tech option. Also is there any info on how much a thunderhawk actually weighs
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 11:53:41 GMT -5
When Imperial Armour II is released by Forgeworld, all our questions about the current Thunderhawk are likely to be answered. They went into great detail with the first book, and I suspect they'll do the same with the follow-up. I definitely see the Thunderhawks as having VTOL by the way. You can't have the Emperor's finest relying on a runway to dismount their rhino In other words, I don't see the problem with Sojourner's suggestion that the Thunderhawk is designed to slow down upon entering the atmosphere.
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 30, 2004 20:39:55 GMT -5
CELS...You have to slow down when you're travelling that fast. Dropping an object from geostationary orbit will have a velocity in the region of 17,000 ms-1 i.e. Mach 52...
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 21:45:09 GMT -5
I know. I was agreeing with you.
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 31, 2004 5:53:23 GMT -5
Ah. Mis-read that there.
It was early in the morning...
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Post by Dazo on Aug 2, 2004 12:57:58 GMT -5
So what have we got then. An indo/exo transport with powerful engines designed for space and atmospheric flight, which may or may not employ power fields to aid its aerodynamics which may employ anti grav techology and most cirtantly has VTL so whats the problem a vectored thrust VTL ie it doesn't just point down probably would allow it to fly quite well in an atmosphere especially if a power field was used to either make it more aerodynamic or used to give it a larger lift surface through field manipulation and with gravatic suspensors to reduce its mass then bobs your uncle you have a flying brick
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 8:49:06 GMT -5
About the size of it, however I do think that the anti-grav isn't a field that makes the whole Thunderhawk lighter.
Anti-grav units repels gravity at a point within itself, and drags the ship up with it. So the anti-grav units are fitted into the 'wings' and lift the heavy ship. As the weight of the entire ship is not being offset, the Thunderhawk is still very heavy. This is another reason the 'wings' are so think, in order to stand the weight.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 23, 2004 18:47:41 GMT -5
Even the Valkyrie is slightly aerodynamic by comparison. And borrowed ever so 'slightly' from the drop-ship in Aliens?
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Sept 25, 2004 16:54:48 GMT -5
About the size of it, however I do think that the anti-grav isn't a field that makes the whole Thunderhawk lighter. Anti-grav units repels gravity at a point within itself, and drags the ship up with it. So the anti-grav units are fitted into the 'wings' and lift the heavy ship. As the weight of the entire ship is not being offset, the Thunderhawk is still very heavy. This is another reason the 'wings' are so think, in order to stand the weight. That doesn't make the ship design any better. Why in the name of the Emperor would you mount the things keeping you aloft at the end of vulnerable pieces of metal outside the armored skin of the ship? If AG=lift from the units themselves, you REALLY don't want to mount them on wings - it places stress on the wings, struts and attachment points. I'm recalling the Robotech episode where the SDF1s AG units rip free of their mountings, through the hull and are last seen floating off into the stratosphere. Putting them on wings makes it worse.
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Post by Philip on Sept 25, 2004 17:40:52 GMT -5
That doesn't make the ship design any better. Why in the name of the Emperor would you mount the things keeping you aloft at the end of vulnerable pieces of metal outside the armored skin of the ship? If AG=lift from the units themselves, you REALLY don't want to mount them on wings - it places stress on the wings, struts and attachment points. I'm recalling the Robotech episode where the SDF1s AG units rip free of their mountings, through the hull and are last seen floating off into the stratosphere. Putting them on wings makes it worse. The wings on the Thunderhawk are very thick, they could be almost solid armour so I wouldn't say they were that vulnerable. As for why to mount them outside the hull? I guess for stability. Having the antigrav mounted inside the hull would be like balancing on on a knife edge and would have to be stabilized with more antigravs further away from the centre of gravity (in the wings) or make constant use of thrusters. Also having the antigrav mounted on the 'wings' (wings as in armoured slabs with no aero dynamic lift what so ever) would give move leverage in turns (Roll). Perhaps Thanderhawks have many antigrav units placed at strategic points: one heavy unit at the centre of gravity and four lighter units in the wings, fount and tail. Plus the two massive jets, this would give complete control in atmospheric flight.
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