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Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 19:53:15 GMT -5
My Invictonburg thread has been locked!
Hi Kage
You made a statement on my Invictonburg thread which I would like to answer.
I haven't damned anyone: I've been professional and polite, and I certainly haven't insulted anyone. If you can point out a post where I have actually damned someone, please bring it to my attention and I'll apologise.
No comment.
I really do not mind if you wish to ignore them, however I would like to discuss them with other members as everyone at ASP is fun to talk to.
As for relevance to ASP, I only posted my concepts here because zholud recommended this forum and said I would get a good discussion. I think he made a good recommendation, and have enjoyed my stay.
I know they make sense, I'm very good at design.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 5, 2004 2:54:23 GMT -5
See rule nine It might be prudent to shift this conversation to the world building forum and continue the hive discussion in your other thread about hives. Anargo is kages forum so he would feel pretty much obligated to reply to posts made here. I'll assume you forgot the smileys kage otherwise thats a poor exuse not to mention petty reason for locking a thread Indeed CELS, your right or course, I've said it before and i'll say it again I would make a crap diplomat. I have no intention of locking horns with anyone especially kage thiers no point, he just tells me to shut up , and because its his project I normally do . But I do hold him to a high standard as he is the leader and I have alot of respect for him, to end an argument the way he did is not what I have come to expect from him(replace "him" with "you" if you are reading this kage) Ps You dare accuse me of being patronising and i'll open a can of whoopass on you, I don't patronise.
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Post by CELS on Sept 5, 2004 8:21:40 GMT -5
Let's get one thing straight right now. Kage started the Anargo Sector Project. It belongs to him more than anyone else. He started this forum. He is the Administrator and 'da Boss'. Kage does not need an excuse to lock a thread.
That said, believe me when I say that I know how you feel. I have locked horns with Kage over many subjects in the Anargo Sector Project, not least of all the Eldar and the way he has handled them. I have, however, always tried to keep in mind that this is his project, his show. All the members of the project can choose to dance to his tune, or choose not to dance at all. We're all here voluntarily, so none of us is in a position to demand anything. The flip side of this coin, is obviously that if Kage goes too far in his own direction, all members will eventually leave. What we (and by that I mean everyone but Kage) can do, is leave the project. If you feel that this project isn't right for you, that's obviously perfectly alright. All you have to do is leave.
So, no, it would not be prudent to shift the discussion of STCT Hives to the World-building forum. It would be prudent if it was shifted off this forum, since it is not a part of the Anargo Sector Project. Most of our members are also members of Portent anyway, so why not post it there? You'll see all the same faces, and an additional 10,000 other Portent members. What have you got to lose?
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Post by Philip on Sept 5, 2004 9:44:41 GMT -5
Let's get one thing straight right now. Kage started the Anargo Sector Project. It belongs to him more than anyone else. He started this forum. He is the Administrator and 'da Boss'. Kage does not need an excuse to lock a thread. I don't have a problem with Kage locking threads that are not related to ASP. However he started throwing insults in my direction and putting words in my mouth in order to base a rant. Being a forum moderator doesn't give you the right to go around insulting people, and if you do expect people to react to it, like I have. I've been polite to Kage at all times while on the forum, and will continue to be so. That said, believe me when I say that I know how you feel. I have locked horns with Kage over many subjects in the Anargo Sector Project, not least of all the Eldar and the way he has handled them. I have, however, always tried to keep in mind that this is his project, his show. All the members of the project can choose to dance to his tune, or choose not to dance at all. We're all here voluntarily, so none of us is in a position to demand anything. The flip side of this coin, is obviously that if Kage goes too far in his own direction, all members will eventually leave. What we (and by that I mean everyone but Kage) can do, is leave the project. If you feel that this project isn't right for you, that's obviously perfectly alright. All you have to do is leave. Invictonburg is in the ASP because Kage liked the initial design and asked me to work up a world. Considering my work schedule, that was a lot to ask, but I was happy to do it as I had enjoyed our discussions and wanted to help out (Kage put so many comments in on the STC threads I felt obliged to add a world to the ASP . As for the STC:CS Kage asked for a full copy of the concept by e-mail. It seems he didn't like it, and he hasn't given any reason other than it doesn't suit his personal taste. As this is his forum, I accept his decision. As of late last night Invictonburg is no longer part of the ASP So, no, it would not be prudent to shift the discussion of STCT Hives to the World-building forum. It would be prudent if it was shifted off this forum, since it is not a part of the Anargo Sector Project. Most of our members are also members of Portent anyway, so why not post it there? You'll see all the same faces, and an additional 10,000 other Portent members. What have you got to lose? Now Invictonburg in no longer part of the ASP, I agree that further discussions on my STC concepts are no longer relevant to ASP. I fully expect Kage to delete them.
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Post by CELS on Sept 5, 2004 10:39:13 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Kage locking threads that are not related to ASP. That's good. My post was in reply to Dazo saying that Kage had a poor excuse though. I just thought I'd jump right in before everyone started doubting Kage's authority. Though I don't quite agree that he was throwing insults in your direction (either way I leave that between the two of you), I do agree that a moderator should not do so, and that you have all right to react if a moderator does exactly that. I applaud you for that. As I've said many times before, we're all busy people, but we ask all our members to help contribute to the Anargo Sector Project. There's no time limit though, so whilst some might finish a system in a week, others might spend months. Of course, we do not bitch at people for not having enough time to work on the ASP. What we can do, is bitch at people for using their time wrongly, by spamming for example. I'm glad to hear you do. I do believe that the reason was that he didn't think that it suited his personal interpretation, which incidentally others (including myself) have agreed with. Although that is a shame, it is probably the best, considering the mismatch of interpretations. At the moment, they will just be locked. Those who forget their mistakes are doomed to repeat them, or something like that. In other words, it is probably best to leave those threads so people can learn from them. If this is going to be a problem (because people can't seem to forget them, and continue to dig up a dead subject) I will delete them later. Oh, and Philip, I want to continue this discussion with you via PMs, so wait a bit before replying to this post, so we don't have two parallel discussions.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 6:06:21 GMT -5
My apologies for a somewhat excessive means of bringing across a fact which has been glaring, and indeed numerously commented on, several times: the various concept threads while sometimes interesting - it is always interesting to see someone's individual interpretation - are eating up a tad too much time. Furthermore, as mentioned previously they are not for the ASP and yet many of the concepts are being 'slipped in the back door' as it were, as well as being predicated upon a revisionist stance.
Invictonburg was locked on a whim - a poor one, likely - since it is itself predicated upon what I now consider an invalid concept. The biosphere concepts behind the "STCS:CS" are intriguing, but the application to hives falls short of the entire imagery behind hiveworlds and structures.
More, it was a message: try and stay on topic. We all have our favourite little bits to the 'fluff' and our own favourite interpretations, but we're trying to work these together. I thought that the "STCS:CS" could be done but, with the parallel 'concept' topics, it does not appear so.
I will not lock the topics. Discussion can continue as long as it is remembered that everything is not predicated upon the "latest edition" (or 'rearrangement') but incorporates a holistic approach to the 'fluff'. Let's just face it, while some may think that "new is best" there are so many die hard fans of the older material out there that they should be catered to.
With specific regard to Invictonburg, the thread is locked because it is no longer valid within the Anargo subsector. The "STCS:CS" should (I hope) still be open and discussion may continue there, free kibitzing or not. It is doubtful that I will be replying there since, once again, it is predicated upon a singular concept that I feel untenable... but that's just me.
If you've felt 'insulted', more so unjustly, than my profuse apologies. To say that stress is mounting is an understatement though that is more an explanation than excuse. Increasingly my time here is limited and I would like to see it directed towards the ASP and not to re-addressing one part of the imagery of the 'fluff' (hiveworlds) because they don't work, then revising another along canonical lines because it fits conceptually.
The project is slow. Anything involving multiple people working to sometimes different goals is going to be... let's not aggravate the situation.
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 7:23:56 GMT -5
So far you are painting a very negative picture of my involvement in the ASP, from accusing me of free-loading, to damning me and now 'slipping things in the back door'?
I've been upfront about my intentions, and I tell people what I think directly. I do not say anything behind someone's back that I will not say to their face. As in real life as in a forum.
At the moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you are just very stressed about your PhD and have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick.
In that light I accept your apologies and hope we can put this behind us.
So, in the interests of harmony, a little clarity;
=STC= The Imperium uses STC. I want to make a catalogue of STC designs.
=Mission= I would like to make a big book of STC designs as a reference for the Black Library and as a resource for hobbyists.
=Concepts and the ASP= I thought that once these concepts had been discussed (with input from everyone), and finalised I could then be the basis of designs. Invictonburg was going to be my showcase of the STC in action and my contribution to the ASP. Along with this, I was hoping that the STC could be expanded and used as a reference for everyone else when building Imperial worlds.
=Upfront= I have made this clear, and I am not trying to trick anyone. You will notice that on the draft I sent I credited your involvement in the design. If it were ever taken up by the Black Library or GW those credits would stay. I am happy to remove your credit if you want me to.
=Outside ASP= My desire to built the STC as a separate 'hobby' outside my work for the BL, is undiminished and I'll continue doing it. I'll still credit those who helped, as through posting here at the ASP the design concepts have really taken shape.
I'm now redesigned it and am now on draft 0.2. which include the very beginnings of the STC (from our time) and more information on power requirements and food yields. Floor plans for the Beta Class are being worked up.
=GW= Will GW take on my STC designs? Depends on how good they are.
=Summary= This is your forum Kage, and I accept your decision not to include Invictonburg in the ASP and in the interests of harmony I'll to stop the design process I have implemented on ASP.
I do not like it as it removes a group of people who I respect from the process, and I think it is important to get the opinions of die hard fans, but I do accept it.
=Side Note= I imagined in the back of my mind, that if the STC designs took shape and 'stood up' I would post them on portent for the sharks. I picked ASP first because it is a smaller group and a dedicated group.
Thanks, its been fun
Philip
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 7:41:31 GMT -5
My patience is fried, Phillip. A result of the stress.
Catalogue of STC That, in and of itself, shows a particular bias as does my response: There are far too many 'STC' for you to do this with.
STCS:CS I was intrigued by the creation of a different hiveworld type, one that was more imposed than organic (or at least less organically grown), but with the parallel topics in the concept thread including 'self sufficiency' and the questions raised it is not appropriate as it stands.
Involvement in the ASP My apologies for any indication of negativity. I'm afraid that we all tend to remember the things that either inspire us or rub us the wrong way, i.e. C'tan as gods of law, 'bubble theory' being used to explain everything, the premise of the nRobots, etc. The majority of which has no bearing on the project...
I'm very sorry, all of the threads that I remember seem to be drastic re-writing of the 'fluff' around concepts that are themselves against some of the very imagery.
Again, carry on posting and re-submit Invictonburg without specific reference to the "STCS:CS" (and again you might want to drop that second 'S' as being redundant) and the parallel concepts there.
This thread will be deleted.
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Post by CELS on Sept 6, 2004 7:43:58 GMT -5
Before it is deleted... Philip, don't be so dramatic As I've said several times, you can still discuss this concept on Portent, where they will surely welcome it with open arms, and you'll meet all the same people. So, the removal of your ideas from this forum does not really mean that you have to remove a lot of people from the creation process. If people are still interested, they will help you on Portent.
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 8:08:55 GMT -5
Catalogue of STCThat, in and of itself, shows a particular bias as does my response: There are far too many 'STC' for you to do this with. Yep, but I'm doing (a bit) anyway. STCS:CSI was intrigued by the creation of a different hiveworld type, one that was more imposed than organic (or at least less organically grown), but with the parallel topics in the concept thread including 'self sufficiency' and the questions raised it is not appropriate as it stands. The Imperium uses STC, and without getting into it all again, I did add your ideas to the design. I even went and worked out power requirement and food yields etc. You wanted detail and I gave you detail. As for complex, I was looking through some Hydroponic sites ect. and I think it can be built now! I always thought that the Beat Class would be built with contemporary materials and this was the type that would cover most of Invictonburg (with some Alpha 'spires' for government) Involvement in the ASPMy apologies for any indication of negativity. I'm afraid that we all tend to remember the things that either inspire us or rub us the wrong way, i.e. C'tan as gods of law, 'bubble theory' being used to explain everything, the premise of the nRobots, etc. The majority of which has no bearing on the project... I'm very sorry, all of the threads that I remember seem to be drastic re-writing of the 'fluff' around concepts that are themselves against some of the very imagery. Some of it was radical, by my intention was to tie everything together. I tried to match the designs so that in practice they would be 'invisible'. Again, carry on posting and re-submit Invictonburg without specific reference to the "STCS:CS" (and again you might want to drop that second 'S' as being redundant) and the parallel concepts there. The STC:CS should be taken as 'STC' subsection 'CS' or STC/CS/Beta. I relates to how I was going to organise everything for easy access. So for an example; STC/CS/Beta/habitat/Hydroponics/Cabinet/Tray/Light/fuse If I you wish me to build Invictonburg it would still be STC (as in all Imperial structures at the base are STC). Invictonburg is just one of many different types of STC systems and structures.
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Post by zholud on Sept 6, 2004 8:57:49 GMT -5
This thread will be deleted. Don’t do it… it won’t kill anyone if it is left here… IMHO of course.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 6, 2004 8:57:54 GMT -5
Now take it easy, everyone, please. Philip from what I gather and I may be wrong(that happens every now and then) kage doesn't actually dislike the whole premise of prefab hives just how they are being used here, indeed he says he does find some of your ideas interesting. So I don't think he would mind a little bit of STC:CS but could yuo soften the edges of you ideas with some of the more...accepted notions of hive worlds...perhaps . Not so much conform as adapt, I like the idea of STC buildings and I see no reason why they couldn't find a place in anargo, if only in a limited capacity. Perhaps Invictonburg was an incomplete version of this type of hive, perhaps they didn't get it finished before the age of strife so you have hive's built on top of STC hives, like a pearl forms around a piece of grit erm yeah that sounds okay. Their might well be fully functional versions of the hive in other sectors, hell it could even be how they smothered terra in metal. And kage, I forget you have alot on your plate so if any of my comments were out of line i'm sorry No one leave(philip) theres plenty of other things for you to do or help develop on the ASP(psst was my name on it aswell
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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 11:07:10 GMT -5
STCS:CSI was intrigued by the creation of a different hiveworld type, one that was more imposed than organic (or at least less organically grown), but with the parallel topics in the concept thread including 'self sufficiency' and the questions raised it is not appropriate as it stands. For Invictonburg I have always said it would be modified to fit Anargo. I took this under taking from the very beginning and I stuck to it. Invictonburg doesn’t relate to or make reference to my other concepts; the concepts were for discussion and to get ideas for possible later designs Again, carry on posting and re-submit Invictonburg without specific reference to the "STCS:CS" (and again you might want to drop that second 'S' as being redundant) and the parallel concepts there. I’ve started a new thread regarding the STC, I’ll be careful not to include any reference to my other concepts. As mentioned before, I would like to ‘catalogue’ part of the STC regarding buildings and how they affect Imperial architecture (a huge interest of mine) and society. Eventually, Invicton/ Invictonburg would be a ‘proof of concept’ in an ASP style.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 18:42:34 GMT -5
And to be honest I still like some of the ideas of the "STCS:CS" concept for general application to the 40k universe...
Everything else, though? There are glimmers of interst in all of them but I think that they are very pre-1st draft in conceptualisation at present.
Fairy snuff... I would therefore suggest that you moderate many of the claims that you are associating with a specific concept. Not only in terms of direct application to the 40k universe but also in specific representation, many of the ideas that you present come of as... well... munchkin. There is a core of extreme 'coolness', but the ways in which you take it are so obviously either 'not 40k' or... well... munchkin.
But in many ways you destroyed the concept of what the hive is... they are supposed not to work. Again I remind you that I was rather fond of your approach to self-contained ecosystems...
That is my goal as well... but I'm really sorry to say that I do not think that any of your concepts are "'fluff' invisible", with the exception of 'nRobots' and then only because they are not detailed in the 'fluff'.
Which surely destroys the very image of a hiveworld... STC and hiveworlds are in many ways exclusive.
Bugger. Darned PPLs. As requested this thread will not at this juncture be deleted despite my desire to do so.
Prefab 'hives' is something that I do have a problem insofar as they are a desired goal. As organic concretion, as with the 'fluff', they are - they must - be fine. With that said the 'hives' on Anargo are themselves outgrowths of arcologies...
Fairy snuff... it seems that the time I'm most likely to be free is the time that I'm also going to dealing with weird finances and getting used to another country.
Then my apologies. It did not seem thus. Please accept the closure of the original thread as a "poke" to move forwards in a style appropriate to the 40k universe.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 3:36:12 GMT -5
So if the prefab habitats actually ended up being so numerous that a hive was accidentally created that would actually be alright. I am starting to see where your coming from, prefabricated structures like a colony hub and the habitats and factories would only be the start of a city and not be intended as the mainstay, it would be anticipated that the new colony would start to create its own identity with new buildings(they might all employ same fixtures and fittings) but they would look different. And it should be asked but did they have hives during the GAoT or are they purely an imperial idea
which one some are stranger than others
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