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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 6:38:39 GMT -5
Concept: Necrons counter Chaos I would like these 'concept' threads to be for the 'brainstorming' of concepts and how they would play out, and ultimately link together with other 'concept' threads.
I would like to design a 'base concept' of 40K were all the 'fluff' becomes 'interpretations' of the base concept, but the base concept has to hold together...=C'tan=Are the C'tan the new Gods of Law? =WH Background=In the old days, the Chaos Gods was counter balanced by the Law gods. There were three principle gods of Law, as there are three principle (active) C'tan. Though 40K is not a future version of WHFB, this quote form WHFR is interesting. In 40K do the C'tan/ Necrons seem to provide a similar function? With their strong 'undead' feel, resistance to time and destruction, and complete obedience to the C'tan, the Necrons seem to fit in with this 'law' ideal. The Necrons are uniform, non-thinking automatons which totally lack in creativity. Most of the time the Necrons just lay down asleep in their tombs doing nothing, held in stasis. The Necrons seem to be the perfect 'worshippers of law'. =Concept=If the C'tan were the new 'God of Law' and the Necrons their blind followers, then their abilities would revolve around slowing down time, stopping/ draining energy (entropy) and bringing the universe to a grinding halt. If they could control such fundamental forces of the universe, then outside of their own 'rock solid and time locked universe' they could choose which forces to stop or suppress, leaving the remaining forces to be put to work. They would also seem to lack magic as such, as magic and the warp are related, but by stopping the forces of nature they could preform effects which appear 'magical'. This would explain 'inertialess drives' as the C'tan can just suppress 'inertia' down to nothing while leaving all the other forces constant. =Uncertainty principle=As discussed in another thread, I put forward the idea that the 'uncertainty principle' is down to the effects of the warp on matter in the real universe. This means zero point energy would be the manifestation of the effect of the warp on matter. As the C'tan could stop the warp in its tracks, it could remove this 'uncertainty' form all their power use, and control the very forces of the universe. =Phase (bubble tech) fields=I have put forward the idea of power fields in essence being magic (warp) fields instigated by technology, it may also be true that bubble tech also relates to the Gods of Law/ Necrons and the anti-warp. This means a 'Stasis field' is tapping into the C'tan's universe, (a place were humans do not want to go, as travel is not possible and you are trapped, unable to move or think or anything). =Overall fit=- The real universe is where the C'tan universe and the warp touch. This interaction between to separate universes is what make the real universe so interesting. The real universe is therefor not a whole and complete universe, more a product of the overlapping of the warp and the C'tans universe.
- The warp enables this to happen and can 'enhance' effects (inc. biological/psykers). It means that in the real universe things can grow and change, new ideas, new generations. Primary effect on the universe is the introduction of energy and uncertainty.
- The C'tan's universe stops things from happening, and can be used to 'suppress' effects. It means that in the real universe things maintain shape and are stable, things age slowly and time flow at a constant. The primary effect on the universe is entropy (it is because of entropy we have matter in 40K) and stability.
=So why do these 'Gods' hang out in the 'real' universe?=The C'tan gain movement and thought by being in real universe, the Chaos gods would gain substance and control. Both want total control and to destroy the other, the real universe is the battle ground. =More Gods=At the present most of the universe is 'law' as most of space is 'empty'. As the number of people with emotions grows so does the power of the warp and the Chaos Gods. As there power of Chaos grows it eats more into the C'tan universe, releasing more C'tan. =Armageddon=In the end both the warp and the C'tan universe combine, and the C'tan and the Chaos god can walk freely and in their millions. Humanity and all other things will be wipe out as the two sides of Gods battle for supremacy. This battle will result in the destruction of the now completely combined universe with a new 'Big Bang'. The process starts again.... =Souls=This would mean that 'souls' are the ghosts in the warp. It means our creativity comes from the warp connection and it also means humans are partial warp entities (though very weak and locked to a body). The 'soul' in reality is nothing more than patterns in the warp,and those interactions between those pattens in the warp are what lead to things like 'inspiration' and sixth sense. As we age, the pattens are repeated and affect the warp but at the same time, the warp is being 'condensed' by that repetition by our thoughts and becoming 'solid' or 'holding their form'. When we die the pattens in the warp are no longer linked to the body and float free. The condensed warp matter continues to operate as a 'mind'. =Necrontyr =The Necrontyr gave up their souls to become the Necrons. Without the warp 'soul' to provide inspiration/ new thoughts they stagnated and become little more than automatons. The Necron form cuts of the Necrontyr from the warp, the C'tan designed it that way to get the Necrontyr become totally obedient and without any self interest. The Necrons are souless.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 28, 2004 6:56:05 GMT -5
I had totally forgot about the gods of law, its been a very long time since I last played WFB. I would like to see a genuine counter point to the forces of chaos. I'm not sure they would be the C'tan though. They are not interested in law but in feeding, they do not seek to end change for the sake of purity and stability but for more food. The mechanicus could possibly lay greater claim to being a power of law than the necrons.
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 7:14:24 GMT -5
I had totally forgot about the gods of law, its been a very long time since I last played WFB. I would like to see a genuine counter point to the forces of chaos. Its a while, but I see a fit (or rather I can make it fit). I think it would be could as it would actually limit what the C'tan can do, and at the same time makes them a fundamental part of the universe. I'm not sure they would be the C'tan though. They are not interested in law but in feeding, they do not seek to end change for the sake of purity and stability but for more food. The mechanicus could possibly lay greater claim to being a power of law than the necrons. The Law doesn't necessarily mean 'good'. Remember that extreme law in isolation enforcing permanency to the point that everything stops, is something most humans would find abhorrent. Humans only see the 'Law' as good relative to their own lives: the Law curbs the excess of Chaos and enforces a balance in humans. Humans exist as a balance of the two, even their societies are structure as such. Form a human point of view the Law is good (but not if unfair and oppressive), but from a human point of view change is good too (but not change for changes sake and wanton destruction).
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Post by Dazo on Aug 28, 2004 7:21:04 GMT -5
The concepts of Law and chaos cannot be described in terms of good and evil. Its not the fact the necron/c'tan are pure evil that stops them from being a power of law, the powers of stagnation would not i feel go about things the way the c'tan do who seem to be more a force of change than permanace. Would Law seek to inspire fear, emotion, i don't think so. More like cold logic and self control maybe
I see the c'tan and necron as an attempt to put the undead into 40k, the tau, imperium and eldar would be the forces of law
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 7:47:44 GMT -5
The concepts of Law and chaos cannot be described in terms of good and evil. Its not the fact the necron/c'tan are pure evil that stops them from being a power of law, the powers of stagnation would not i feel go about things the way the c'tan do who seem to be more a force of change than permanace. Would Law seek to inspire fear, emotion, i don't think so. More like cold logic and self control maybe I'm saying that the universes are chaos/law not those sentient entities within them. The Chaos God come about by human emotion: an external influence, the same for the C'tan (I'd imagine). Just as Chaos daemons gain a benefit in the real universe via a physical form, so do the C'tan. The C'tan wish to drain everything, as it would be their nature... but the effects of the real universe (and therefore chaos in a round about way) would strongly influence their actions. It may be that while in the real universe, they (in retrospect) see themselves as 'freed' and run rampant. (as a side note, the Law has always sought to inspire fear, as in: deterrent. Fear is a controlling factor in constraint and the law. If a person has fear they will curb their natural reactions to conform.) The C'tan will still be doing the work of law, but in new ways, the effect will be the same in the end. I see the c'tan and necron as an attempt to put the undead into 40k, the tau, imperium and eldar would be the forces of law Eldar would be a force of perfect balance (or the Eldars best attempt). Law is not about balance it is about constraint.
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Post by zholud on Aug 30, 2004 8:23:28 GMT -5
Are the C'tan the new Gods of Law? Although your theory has some interesting ideas I don’t buy it due to several reasons. - Adding anti-warp dimension seems the way to overcomplicate things. For me warp does not equal Chaos, so no need for new reality.
- What is there in law-reality – we know that souls are in the warp, bodies in the real space. Where is law-reality shadow/image of human?
- No evolution is true law – where then C’tan evolved? Or they always where?
- Feeding – why they eat stars? BTW it is impossible to say whether enthropy at its final point is law/chaos… it is equilibriums at all levels.
- Emperor is the god of law and we don’t need another one
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Post by Philip on Aug 30, 2004 9:31:09 GMT -5
Although your theory has some interesting ideas I don’t buy it due to several reasons. - Adding anti-warp dimension seems the way to overcomplicate things. For me warp does not equal Chaos, so no need for new reality.
- What is there in law-reality – we know that souls are in the warp, bodies in the real space. Where is law-reality shadow/image of human?
- No evolution is true law – where then C’tan evolved? Or they always where?
- Feeding – why they eat stars? BTW it is impossible to say whether enthropy at its final point is law/chaos… it is equilibriums at all levels.
- Emperor is the god of law and we don’t need another one
Anti-warp ? I was thinking more like 'The void'. A space where there is absolutely nothing. I'm thinking that the real universe in a mixture of the void and the warp. The warp supplies the energy and it is consumed by the void, warp comes from nothing and via the void it returns to nothing. Hmm, or the void holds onto the energy in its non-warp form? The real universe it just a 'phase' of energy as it travels to the void. As energy is first condensed into matter, and is then consumed by the void (via Black holes! how neat and tidy is that!) Just as humans have a shadow the warp, in the void the have a shadow too, a faint ghost like image, this is the energy leaking into the void and is why humans age and die (age? no, why their faith and fires of youth dies as they age). The C'tan feed on stars because they are the void personified. They want to consume all the real universe and the warp if they could get their teeth into it. The Emperor a God Law, fair dos, so I'll change them to 'Gods of the Void' as it sound appropriate (if there not that already, it may be time to get the new 40K rulebook!)
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 30, 2004 12:23:10 GMT -5
Anti-warp ? I was thinking more like 'The void'. A space where there is absolutely nothing. I'm thinking that the real universe in a mixture of the void and the warp. The warp supplies the energy and it is consumed by the void, warp comes from nothing and via the void it returns to nothing. Hmm, or the void holds onto the energy in its non-warp form? The real universe it just a 'phase' of energy as it travels to the void. As energy is first condensed into matter, and is then consumed by the void (via Black holes! how neat and tidy is that!) Just as humans have a shadow the warp, in the void the have a shadow too, a faint ghost like image, this is the energy leaking into the void and is why humans age and die (age? no, why their faith and fires of youth dies as they age). The C'tan feed on stars because they are the void personified. They want to consume all the real universe and the warp if they could get their teeth into it. The Emperor a God Law, fair dos, so I'll change them to 'Gods of the Void' as it sound appropriate (if there not that already, it may be time to get the new 40K rulebook!) Thematically, the C'tan are fairly clearly being placed in opposition to Chaos. One is resident in and the embodiment of the Warp, and can only exist for brief periods in the realspace realm. The other is above all natural law in realspace, absolute controller of the laws of physics and able to gorge upon life force or the stars themselves. Immortal and near omnipotent, but unable to survive in the warp and afraid of that shifting realm. As the name suggests, Chaos is the embodiment of change, while the C'tan seek an unchanging world, the soulless perfection and stability of a mechanical world, with the C'tan as prime movers of that existence. But that's thematic - there's no need to change the actual structure of the C'tan or Necrons or the universe itself. As pointed out, there is (or soon will be) a counterpart to the chaos powers within the warp, a positive energy warp god named the Star Child. The imagery of The Void is inconsistent. I should have thought the whole point of the void is that you can't have shadows or gods or what have you. However, you do raise something that has by times bugged me about the C'tan - their plans seem nihilistic. If you kill everyone, what do you eat? Now it has been suggested on the net that there would be breeding to produce more pariah food once the galaxy is subjugated, but the whole plan seems a bit misguided. However, your void idea raises a point I hadn't considered. To the extent that the void represents perfect stasis (nothingness), the C'tan may indeed seek this, or rather, reocgnize this as their inevitable end. After all, the C'tan are immortal on a level rare even in fiction, being immaterial and born and surviving in the hearts of stars until an eyeblink ago in cosmic time. There are only so many people and only so many stars. To beings of their longevity, sentient life is a temporary aberration and they have to figure they'll be the last sentient beings in existence at the end of the universe - so they plan to eat now, as much as they can, while they can, and then go back to the heart of stars and wait out the end of existence.
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Post by zholud on Aug 31, 2004 10:03:19 GMT -5
Anti-warp ? I was thinking more like 'The void'. A space where there is absolutely nothing. Its more semantics, after all GW sometimes uses word void to describe the warp. I pointed on its function instead of proposing the name. Point is why law-gods violate laws of physics when they see it fit, e.g. inertia-less drive? Or they are similar to Franko, who said my friends will get everything and enemies will get according to the law… I'm thinking that the real universe in a mixture of the void and the warp. The warp supplies the energy and it is consumed by the void, warp comes from nothing and via the void it returns to nothing. So thermodynamics laws on closed system where no energy ever appear/disappear do not hold? Why energy born in warp and dies in void? The real universe it just a 'phase' of energy as it travels to the void. As energy is first condensed into matter, and is then consumed by the void (via Black holes! how neat and tidy is that!) Unsure about necessity to add black holes to our mix… or dark matter Just as humans have a shadow the warp, in the void the have a shadow too, a faint ghost like image, this is the energy leaking into the void and is why humans age and die (age? no, why their faith and fires of youth dies as they age). Generally I haven’t got the point… what kind of energy? The C'tan feed on stars because they are the void personified. They want to consume all the real universe and the warp if they could get their teeth into it. Then why stars and not planets or humans or star dust? Seems they prefer stars. The Emperor a God Law, fair dos, It is not set in stone and it has to be left undetermined, as well as how many Emperor gods are here – I mean Star Child, Omnissiah of Mechanicus, multiple shamans personalities on the Throne, god of Ecclesiarchy… so I'll change them to 'Gods of the Void' as it sound appropriate (if there not that already, it may be time to get the new 40K rulebook!) You mean 5th edition, because 4th is out some days ago
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Post by Philip on Aug 31, 2004 10:44:08 GMT -5
Its more semantics, after all GW sometimes uses word void to describe the warp. I pointed on its function instead of proposing the name. Void as in void, as in nothing. The warp has energy (its all energy, every bit with no space), so isn't a void. (a universe of component parts, broken, non reactive and dark) Point is why law-gods violate laws of physics when they see it fit, e.g. inertia-less drive? Or they are similar to Franko, who said my friends will get everything and enemies will get according to the law… Law would be our humans concepts, the lower power version of what they are. Humans wouldn't see the full universe of the C'tan So thermodynamics laws on closed system where no energy ever appear/disappear do not hold? Why energy born in warp and dies in void? Correct, the energy is born in the war and dies in the void. However that would be from the the humans perspective. They system hint that there is a 'return universe' to get the energy back to the warp. This return universe is never encounter and observed by humans and nothing is know about it. As a filler: The return universe it is the opposite of our universe, how that plays out is anyone's guess (the opposite of friction? the acceleration of touching objects? eek!) Unsure about necessity to add black holes to our mix… or dark matter Black hole all the way. Generally I haven’t got the point… what kind of energy? Warp energy! A mixture of everything: energy, matter and time... To further explain (with a bad analogy, so it will probably make things worse)... DNA gel trays; A spot of DNA at one end is like the warp, all condensed into once blob. The bars of genes are like the real universe, where the bars are the laws of physics/ nature. The far end would be the void. The warp energy flows from the warp into the real universe (via Stars) and out into the void (via black holes). As the warp energy travels from star to black hole, it splits apart to form the 'real' universe creating energy and matter. This energy and matter hangs about a bit, until it is sucked into a black hole. As it travels into the void it it further broken down into its component parts (in the return universe it starts to recombine. When the reformed component parts are sucked into the warp the have combined so much as to be one 'blob of everything' and this blob of energy is warp energy) The big bang would be the first leak of the warp into the 'real' universe. (as a side note, it suggests that the fabric of the universe is coming apart, and humanity is a result of an 'accident'. The universes are starting to react with on and another.) Then why stars and not planets or humans or star dust? Seems they prefer stars. The Stars are where the warp leaks into the real universe, the C'tan are suckling on the warp. As close as the C'tan can get to the warp. The star transforms the warp energy into 'normal' energy of light and heat the C'tan can use. It is not set in stone and it has to be left undetermined, as well as how many Emperor gods are here – I mean Star Child, Omnissiah of Mechanicus, multiple shamans personalities on the Throne, god of Ecclesiarchy… The Emperor Gods are really 'warp entities' like the Chaos Gods except born of different human emotions. You mean 5th edition, because 4th is out some days ago 4th edition. just haven't gotten round to it. Right I'm of to order a copy! ;D ========== As the name suggests, Chaos is the embodiment of change, while the C'tan seek an unchanging world, the soulless perfection and stability of a mechanical world, with the C'tan as prime movers of that existence. But that's thematic - there's no need to change the actual structure of the C'tan or Necrons or the universe itself. As pointed out, there is (or soon will be) a counterpart to the chaos powers within the warp, a positive energy warp god named the Star Child. The star child would be (in this concept) a warp entity born of 'good' emotions. It just took a while to turn up. The imagery of The Void is inconsistent. I should have thought the whole point of the void is that you can't have shadows or gods or what have you. No a universe of dead component parts. However, you do raise something that has by times bugged me about the C'tan - their plans seem nihilistic. If you kill everyone, what do you eat? Now it has been suggested on the net that there would be breeding to produce more pariah food once the galaxy is subjugated, but the whole plan seems a bit misguided. Under this concept (see above) the universe isn't going to end. However, your void idea raises a point I hadn't considered. To the extent that the void represents perfect stasis (nothingness), the C'tan may indeed seek this, or rather, reocgnize this as their inevitable end. After all, the C'tan are immortal on a level rare even in fiction, being immaterial and born and surviving in the hearts of stars until an eyeblink ago in cosmic time. There are only so many people and only so many stars. To beings of their longevity, sentient life is a temporary aberration and they have to figure they'll be the last sentient beings in existence at the end of the universe - so they plan to eat now, as much as they can, while they can, and then go back to the heart of stars and wait out the end of existence. The universe is one going in this concept. The C'tan can feed for ever as they are just a link in the chain. Added concept bit. The C'tan only exist (in this concept) because the warp exploded into the real universe and started leaking all over the place. The C'tan are made up from the flow from the warp as it enters the void, so more warp means more power. The more power they have the more they feed, however just like any system the leak, and now they have maxed out. The C'tan were born in black holes, and crave the all energy of the warp.
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Post by zholud on Aug 31, 2004 13:49:36 GMT -5
Void as in void, as in nothing. The warp has energy (its all energy, every bit with no space), so isn't a void. (a universe of component parts, broken, non reactive and dark) If C’tan live in the void it cannot be nothing because C'tans are something and nothing never bears something. If they are born in void (I assume duality with warp and the fact that warp gods were born), then there is some change in void, thus far from true stasis there… emotions give live to chaos gods, what gives life to god of law? And if warp is all-energy, it cannot be seen and you can’t present there. Recall hulks wander in the warp without Geller fields and they are material still… Law would be our humans concepts, the lower power version of what they are. Humans wouldn't see the full universe of the C'tan Fair enough assumption, but it generally kills somehow any kind of TL system, which is based on the assumption that what we call law of physics is more or less true… As a filler: The return universe it is the opposite of our universe, how that plays out is anyone's guess (the opposite of friction? the acceleration of touching objects? eek!) Hey, its 2nd additional universe made to describe warp-realspace relationship. You’ve build construction as big as original stuff GW says stars… are they wrong. The warp energy flows from the warp into the real universe (via Stars) and out into the void (via black holes). again it is quite different from what GW says… and it was you, who say not to wander too far from narrative Another GW problem, according to them C’tans have the Great Plan™ to separate warp and realspace… to cut their energy source?!
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Post by Philip on Sept 1, 2004 18:59:10 GMT -5
=The Void= I imagine the universe of the C'tan to be made up of the very smallest component parts the make up reality. Perhaps a sea of dead super strings (or the parts that make them) unreactive, individual, dispersed, no light, and all invisible to the naked eye.
To a human seeing such a universe it would be like staring into space with no stars, it would look like a space of nothing. To humans it is the 'Void'.
=The Warp= The Warp is made up of energy, fluid matter and time combined into one substance, a substance called warp energy. It flows like water under the sea, bright plasma like strings of varying densities twisting and moving in complex pattens like smoke.
I imagine the warp to be pink, blue and red, the colour of plasma.
A ship can move in the warp the same way a submarine can displace water. I the warp, the ships 'real' hull is the Geller field.
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Post by Philip on Sept 29, 2004 9:04:05 GMT -5
Reading the Necron Codex it says that the C’tan were found feeding on stars by the Necrontyr, but it doesn’t say the C’tan were born in stars.
The C’tan could have been born anywhere, even a ‘black hole’ like I suggest.
As for the great plan, it may be just to stop others using the warp?
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Oct 1, 2004 3:25:25 GMT -5
Since the C'tan are star-eating entities, one would presume that they came to life in rather close proximity to stars, no? By their nature, there's not much to eat in a black hole.
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Post by Zholud on Oct 1, 2004 10:09:42 GMT -5
The C’tan could have been born anywhere, even a ‘black hole’ like I suggest. Modern science assumes that there is singularity in black hole – so time equals zero and mass approaches infinity. From the other hand C’tans seems to be sentient and developed life-form, so they need some kind of evolution and thus time for it. I don’t see any need to link C’tan and black holes, except some rule of cool.
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