|
Post by Kage2020 on Aug 25, 2004 6:04:22 GMT -5
Although you could readily hand-wave, accept the grav model and work on the premise that they are riding 'gravity waves' or somesuch... same premise and 'anything goes' territory without opening up the problems of 'in-system warp'. Furthermore it ties in with technologies already mentioned...
The only real problem is that you don't really at this juncture get a drop of efficiency as you orient your vessel towards the sun... although you kind of do, but that depends on how close you are to it.
And none of the above does a fig about the artwork. Sails can be said to remain, or not, depending on hull morphology, blah blah...
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Sept 9, 2004 11:15:25 GMT -5
Sorry for the delay in posting. I was away from a computer for two weeks. Let me see if I can clear up some misconceptions around the zero point field. Untenable. Based upon the size of the 'sails' there is no way that they could provide significant acceleration on a vessel with the mass/inertia of a wraithship. If the zero point theory was based off of Newtonian Physics, I would agree with you Kage, but the Zero Point Theory is based on particle physics (quantum theory). As stated in my oriinal post in the Zero Point Theory matter resists acceleration not because it possesses mass, but because the zero point field exerts a force whenever acceleration takes place. Mass is, in effect, an illusion. Matter seems to be solid and stable stuff due to the force generated by the zero point field that opposes acceleration when you push on any material object. Originally I used the example of swinging a tennis racket through air and then through water, to illustrate this point. To better illustrate the effects of the solar wind upon an eldar ship, I wil try a different example. Picture a boat on a lake that is created by a dam. Now imagine the dam bursts. The water will flow out of the dam in an attempt to achieve homeostasis. The boat will be carried forward on the water rushing out of the dam. This effect simulates the propulsion achieved by lowering the density of the zero point field in the path of that the eldar ship wishes to travel. The eldar ship achieves its acceleration based on the zero point field attempting to reach homeostasis. In the example of the boat let us an in the effects of a wind. The effects of the solar wind on an eldar ship in space will be much the same as the effects on our boat on the lake behind the dam. The boat is moving based on the spped of the water rushing out of the dam. Even if the speed of the water were to remain constant, the ship moving into a head wind would enconter "wind resistance". The force of the wind striking the boat would impart some of its energy to the vessel. Because it is in the opposite direction of the boats travel, this would cause the boat to slow down. If the wind was coming from behind the boat in the same direction that it is traveling towards the breach in the dam, the wind would impart added impulse to the ship, moving it slightly faster than the speed of the water alone. The last possibility to cover is a wind coming in from right angles to the boat. Due to the greater surface area of the boat exposed to the wind, the energy imparted by the force of the wind to the boat would be greater. If the boat had a fixed sail, the effect would be even greater. Now in the example of the boat moving forward on the water flowing out of a breached dam, this force would attempt to push the ship latterally, but what if the breach in the dam or the flow of the water could be changed so that it flowed in the same direction as the latteral movement of the ship? The additional impulse generated by the wind would work to propel the ship at a greater rate of speed than could be achieved by the movement of the water itself, or with the wind striking the smaller surface area of the rear of the ship. The directional control of the water postulated in the above example can be achieved with the zero point drive. By angling the decrease in density of the zero point field to coincide with the path of the solar wind striking the ship at a right angle, the eldar ships are able to achieve greater velocities than they would if moving with the zero point field alone. True this model does not account for a vessels distance from a star or for differing type of stars, but I still feel that this was a simplification on the part of GW for the sake of playability. Eldar ships operating outside of the solar system would have a speed somewhere near the average of the speed when traveling towards the star and away from the star. I hope this better explains the concept. Please let me know if any further clarification is required.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 9, 2004 14:19:24 GMT -5
Erm... it really isn't that hard understanding the basic premise, Destecado. Really, it isn't. The lateral movement thing is a bit dodgy with reference to surface area, but only if one considers the entire ship to be that surface area... The question is the relationship of the ZPField to the 'sail' (which is not fixed). Further, a bit more explanation on just why the solar wind is affecting the ZPField. Your explanations on that were non-existent... Erm, that I remember anyway. ]Goes back to trying to represent variability of terrestrial carbon/nitrogen isotopes in different trophic levels against a human population and try to figure out relative contributions to diet...
<sigh> Might have to start up a thread about statistics...
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Sept 9, 2004 17:19:52 GMT -5
Edit: Based on further research and PM discussions the information below has been edited.The lateral movement thing is a bit dodgy with reference to surface area, but only if one considers the entire ship to be that surface area... The question is the relationship of the ZPField to the 'sail' (which is not fixed). As far as I am aware, the structures that are called "sails" on eldar ships are fixed...unless, I am misinterpreting what you are calling the sails. The sails act as both field generators and as radiators, to expel excess heat from the vessel's internal systems. Please Note: The field generated by the sails is not the zero point field itself, but rather one used to manipulate it in order to achieve propulsion. The zero point field is an underlying sea of energy. Due to further research and PM questioning from Kage, I am now of the opinion that the field acts as a inertial compensator and may have much in common with the eldar “antigrav” technology. In order to understand how this drive system works, I will need to first provide an overview of how the concepts of mass, inertia and gravity relate to the Zero Point Field Theory. MASS & INERTIA IN THE ZERO POINT FIELD THEORYSubatomic particles such as electrons are massless. The force defined as gravity in the Zero Point Field Theory is caused by the oscillation of charge particles rather than as a value subject to the mass of an object. The vacuum of space contains randomly fluctuating electromagnetic fields which are equated with the zero point energy field. One of the basic concepts of classical electrodynamics is that a fluctuating charge emits an electromagnetic field. These electromagnetic waves impinge upon (collide with) charged, point-like (positively / negatively charged) particles, causing them to randomly oscillate in a manner similar to what is seen in Brownian motion. Explanation of Terms:
Brownian motion is the basis behind Kinetic theory on which several concepts of Newtonian Physics are based. It is defined as the random fluctuations of small particles suspended in a medium due to bombardment by molecules obeying a Maxwellian velocity distribution. Diffusion, the physical process in which a substance tends to spread steadily from regions of high concentration to regions of lower concentration, is a macroscopic manifestation of the Brownian motion occurring on the microscopic level
Maxwellian Velocity Distribution: In the context of the Kinetic Molecular Theory of Gases, a gas contains a large number of particles in rapid motions. Each particle has a different speed, and each collision between particles changes the speeds of the particles. An understanding of the properties of the gas requires an understanding of the distribution of particle speeds.A massless particle therefore acquires energy from the electromagnetic waves generated by the zero point field. This energy takes the form of random oscillation which is an increase in Kinetic energy. Under special relativity, as velocity increases so does the mass. Mass therefore originates in the oscillating motion of charged particles in response to the electromagnetic zero point field fluctuations of the vacuum. Put another way, the internal kinetic energy of a system contributes to the effective mass of that system. Inertial mass can be accounted for by the interaction process between the accelerated object and the electromagnetic fields of the vacuum. It appears to generate a physical resistance (reaction force) to acceleration akin to absorption or scattering of electromagnetic radiation in its path. The retarding force exerted upon the electron accelerated through the electromagnetic fields of the vacuum is proportional to its acceleration. The frequency of the particles also play an important part in its mass. Different resonant frequencies of different particles result in different masses. This occurs because photons in the quantum vacuum with the same frequency as the oscillation are much more likely to bounce off a particle. Particles with higher resonance frequencies will have a greater mass, since the zero point field fluctuations occur at the higher end of the electromagnetic spectrum. There are more frequency vacuum photons to bounce off of. GRAVITY IN THE ZERO POINT FIELD THEORYAs discussed above, a fluctuating charge emits an electromagnetic field. It should therefore hold true that the charged particles which oscillate due to electromagnetic fluctuations in the zero point field must also generate their own electromagnetic fields. The result is that all charges in the universe will emit secondary electromagnetic fields in response to their interaction with the primary field (the zero point field). The interaction between these secondary fields displays an unusual property. Between any two charged particles there arises an (weaker) attractive force, separate and distinct from an ordinary attractor (positive / negative charge). The greater the density of secondary electromagnetic fields, the greater the attractive force. The curvature of space that Einstein ascribed to the effects of gravity are reproduced in the Zero Point Theory by an increase in the density of the zero point field in the vicinity of "massive" objects. The reason for this is due to the greater number of oscillating point-like charges that comprise the matter. The number of oscillating charges is directly proportional the number of secondary fields. The greater the number of secondary electromagnetic fields there are, the greater the total energy density of the Zero Point field in the vicinity of those charges. The speed of light also decreases as the density of the Zero Point Field increase. This mimics the effects of gravity upon light in the General Relativity model. Instead of being effected by gravity the curvature of light and its decrease in speed are due to refraction. The velocity of light is inversely proportional to the refractive index of the medium it travels through. The greater abundance of charged particles and the increase in density of the Zero Point Field cause an increase in the refractive index, thus light is deflected. Calculations of the deflection are very close to those achieved through General Relativity. To illustrate this, imagine turning on a flashlight and aiming it at a statue 20ft away on a clear night. The beam of light emitted by the flashlight will illuminate the statue. Try the same process on a foggy night and results will be quite different. The thicker medium of the fog refracts the light. Little if any light will reach the statue. The thicker the fog is, the higher the refraction index. This illustration is more to represent the curvature caused by a medium than the decrease in the speed of light. The difference in the speed of light for the two examples is two small for the observe to notice.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Sept 17, 2004 17:05:20 GMT -5
INERTIALESS DRIVE
Based on the information in my post above, I have somewhat revized my original concept of how a ship could use the zero point field to generate propulsion.
Inertia in the Zero Point Field model is a reaction force that generates a physical reistance to acceleration. If it were possible to some how balance out or negate this force, the ship would be "immune" to the force of inertia.
True "immunity" to inertia is probably not possible, but a drive system could be created that utilized inerial dampeners. The drive would work by lowering the particle density or varying the resonance frequency of the particles around the ship so that they oscillated out of sink with the frequency at which the zero point fluctuations that causes inertia do.
This will decrease the force of inertia upon the vessel. In order to acheive acceleration, the field must be made asymetric. The asymetric portion of the field can either be created by increasing the density of particles in that specific location, by bringing that portion of the field into sink with the inertial force or a combination of both.
Since the effects of inertia on the ship are "dampened" in every other location around the vessel, it will push on this location with greater force. the ship will therefore be accerated in the opposite direction.
If I remember correctly, there is something about eldar vessels venting plasma or having some form of plasma discharge. Such a discharge my be a method of increasing the particle density for the drive. Plasma after all is ionized (charged) gas.
EFFECTS OF THE SOLAR WIND
The highlighted portion of the above quote I think pretty much sums up the effects of the solar wind upon the vessel. The ionized particles in the path of the ship act in much the same manner of the innertial force. The filed generated by the drive system is tuned to cancel out or dimminsh the effects of the inertial force.
The solar wind unfortunately does not oscillate at the same frequency as the electromagnetic feld of inertia, so it remains unaffected by the ships field. When heading directly into the solar wind the force of the ionized particles colliding with the ship act to slow the vessel.
I still say the greatest effect of the solar wind comes when the solar wind comes at right angles to the ship (due to the surface area)
Kage, per your PM I will post more information on what other eldar technologies I see deriving from the Zero Point Field Theory...it may take me a couple of days to post. Does this concept of the propulsion system sound better to you?
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Sept 20, 2004 16:10:58 GMT -5
This might also point to the method to explain the fluff statement that Wraithbone absorbs energy from the warp. Rather than drawing energy directly from the warp, wraithbone may instead absorb the fluctuating electromagnetic waves of the zero point vacuum. To better understand wraithbone and those that shape it (Bonesingers) I have included small excerpts from the fluff about both).
Wraithbone The Eldar use Wraithbone to make the skeletal cores of their buildings, spacecraft and other wraith constructs such as Wraithguard and Wraithlords. Much as a skeleton of an animal provides a framework for its fleshy tissue, so the Wraithbone skeleton of an Eldar spacecraft is a living core around which its functional structures are arranged.
Wraithbone is literally grown into the required shapes by the Wraithbone technicians known as Bonesingers, who utilise their psychomorphic powers to accelerate the formation of psychotrophic crystals around the Wraithbone core. The Wraithbone provides a rigid structure as well as channels for psychic energy, facilitating transmission of communication and power. The Wraithbone core also provides psychic refuge for Eldar spirits in the Infinity Circuit.
Bonesingers The Path of the Bonesinger is a singular and unique path, due to their role as the psycho-technicians of the Eldar. They craft wraithbone and other psycho-plastic materials to fashion the artefacts found aboard the Eldar Craftworlds. Bonesingers work their wraithbone using their psychic powers and a psychic tool called an Isitha Kasra. This psychic tool is played in a similar fashion to a musical instrument but no sound accompanies it's playing. Instead it conditions the Bonesinger's concentration enabling him to repair wraithbone and other psycho-plastic materials much more easily than he would otherwise. The Isitha Kasra also boosts the psychic powers of the Bonesinger through the storage and provision of additional psychic energy for occasions when the Bonesinger needs that extra boost to his powers.
Every Eldar is trained to fight in battle and Bonesingers are no exception. On the battlefield Bonesingers generally accompany Wraithlords, War Walkers, Skimmers and other vehicles where their abilities can be put to the best use by repairing battle damage. As damage is inflicted upon the vehicles the Bonesingers can psychically knit the wraithbone core and psycho-plastic coverings back together, reconnect the mind links to the Eldar spirit within a Wraithlord and a myriad of other complicated psychic repairs which need to be made in the maelstrom of battle (See also Bone Seers; Paths of the Eldar; Wraithbone).
The concept bears some similarities to the wave energy converters currently being tested in the U.K. The converters harness the power of the ocean’s waves to generate electricity. One converter designs undergoing testing generates power by utilizing the pressure fluctuations that occur as a wave passes. Wraithbone derives power form the warp by harnessing the energy of the fluctuating electromagnetic waves generated in the zero point field by its interaction with the warp. Shaping the wraithbone is much like tuning a musical instrument, but unlike musical instruments, the wraithbone core is not tuned within the normal range of hearing (even for elder). It is tuned to harmonically resonate with the electromagnetic waves of the zero point vacuum. The psychotropic crystals built around the wraithbone core act as batteries to store the energy absorbed for later use.
Some of the Eldar weapons technology is also based around the concept of the zero point field. Weapons such as the D-cannon or Wraithcannon When such weapons fire they bore a hole through the fabric of reality to warp space, sucking targets into the hole entirely or ripping then apart. Those lucky enough to avoid the full power of the blast are cast aside and scattered around the battlefield. (Excerpt from 2nd edition fluff)
Such weapons work in much the same manner as warp engines, creating an artificial singularity. Unlike the warp engine which must create a singularity stable enough to pass a ship through, a singularity created by a wraithcannon is highly unstable.
Creating an artificial singularity is actually not that far fetched. Scientists are currently close to using a supercollider to create artificial black holes in the laboratory. Due to their small “mass”, these black holes evaporate quickly (within 10 to the minus 17 seconds).
As a side note, wraithcannons (as well as other eldar weapons that utilize the similar principles) and the backpack teleporter units utilized by Warp Spider Aspect Warriors appear to prove a relationship exists between the size of the object being transported (or in the case of the wraithcannon) the size of the singularity generated and the warp zone of a system.
The danger of using the warp spider teleporter increases with distance. If I remember correctly, you must also roll scatter dice when emerging from the warp back into real space. The rolling of scatter dice may indicate a distortion (refraction)in the singularity caused by the density of the zero point field inside the warp zone.
IMPLICATIONS FOR THE HEART OF THE SECTOR & THE SARGASSO GULF
The greater the density of particles or electromagnetic fields generated by those charged particles, the more difficult it is to pass out of our reality. The implications withregard to the minimum distance necessary to jump out of a system (warp zone) have already been stated, but what if we take it one step further?
It may explain the "interference" caused by the proto-dimensional fragments within the Heart of the Sector. The attractor force that exists between two charged particles (the attractor associated with gravity) may also create an attraction between the proto dimensions and our own reality.
This attraction is why the fragments have remained close to our own reality. Along with the attractor force, there are the electromagnetic waves give off by the secondary electromagnetic fields of the protodimensions which like those of our reality are reflected back into the warp. The area of the warp between our reality and the proto-dimensional fragements would therefore have a higher degree of electromagnetic waves.
This would not only increase the particle density of this region of the warp, but also create interference patterns where the electromagnetic waves from our reality and those of the fragments intersected. he turbulance shear would throw ships off course and also increases the difficulty of transitioning from normal space to warp space and vice versa.
If a system such as the maelstrom exists, then it is possible that a system that is its opposite will also possibly exist. The Sargasso Gulf may be such a system. Instead of cicling out like the maelstrom or a hurricane, the Sargasso Gulf appears to circle inward.
Ships and other debris are carried int it by the strong currents at its edges. The electromagnetic wave and particles would be carried directly into the Sargasso Gulf. The density of the Zero Point Field in the Sargasso Gulf would be similar if not stronger than what is found in the warp Zone of a star system. The only difference is that rather than covering just the star system, the warp zone extends over several parsecs of space.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Oct 4, 2004 16:06:33 GMT -5
I need feedback. I'm trying to work up a cohesive explanation of the how the drive system of an eldar vessel works as well as a working explanation of eldar power production. If possible please read the above information and let me know what you think (please post feedback in this thread).
It sounds fine to me, but only by hearing from others can I hope to edit it or correct any misconceptions or points that are not fully explained. I look forward to your comments.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 6, 2004 18:12:52 GMT -5
Inertia in the Zero Point Field model is a reaction force that generates a physical reistance to acceleration. If it were possible to some how balance out or negate this force, the ship would be "immune" to the force of inertia. OK, one question: If an Eldar ship could be made 'immune to inertia' and very little force would be required to move the ship, could it be possible that the sails on Eldar ships are plain old 'solar sails' (or even warp sails)? This would mean the drive system of Eldar ships would consist of two elements: an inertia dampening system and Solar (or in my mind warp) sails? I also like the idea of ZPF being used as breaks on Imperial ships (see sub-light engine thread).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 8, 2004 8:44:44 GMT -5
There is very little that I can say other than, "Wow". I'm impressed. Extremely integrated... and also very convoluted. We now have eldar drive systems using ZPF, plasma exhausts and reducing the inertia of the vessel down to close to zero...? As to specific comments...? None are forthcoming at the moment. I just have a vague suspicion of the concept but cannot, at present, put a finger on it. I'll let you know if something comes up but, when it comes down to it, even I reach a point where you say "Shut up and tell me how many dice to roll!" In other words, ultimately I'll be more sold when I see it operating on an eldar ship detailed in the ASP...
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Oct 8, 2004 14:46:38 GMT -5
OK, one question: If an Eldar ship could be made 'immune to inertia' and very little force would be required to move the ship, could it be possible that the sails on Eldar ships are plain old 'solar sails' (or even warp sails)? This might work for system travel, but what about interstellar travel where there is no solar wind to propel it. I still feel that the sails serve as both emitters and heat radiators for to rlease the internal heat that build up in a ship. If you look at the international space station (or any space station for that matter), you will see large panels. Only a fraction of these are solar panels. The remainder are radiator arrays for removing waste heat from the station. Although these are the sails main function, I do think that they interact with the solar wind when an eldar vessel is in system. Depending on the vessels orientation to the solar wind, they might experience some drag or when the solar wind strikes the vessel at right angles, added impulse. By "running with" the solar wind, eldar vessels are able to achieve speeds faster than they could by just utilizing their drives. This would mean the drive system of Eldar ships would consist of two elements: an inertia dampening system and Solar (or in my mind warp) sails? Given the sails relative size versus the size of the vessel, they would be too small to generate propulsion on their own. If instead they are emitters, that cast out a large field, their functionality as a drive system becomes more resonable. either way, I don't not see the "sails" interactiong directly with the warp. This is instead accomplished through the intermidiary of the zero point field. I see the interaction between the warp and the zero point field as being an exchange of resonant frequencies (electromagnetic fields). Inertia is a foce created by this interaction. Inertial dampeners would work to lessen the effects of this force upon the vessel. Let us imagine the warp as a tuning fork which when struck vibrates at a given frequency. Let us now imagine that zero point point field is the head of a drum. Other objects are represented as beads resting on the head of the drum. When the tuning fork (the warp) makes contact with the drum head (ZPF), it imparts some of its vibration to it. The drum head in turn imparts some of the vibration to the beads resting upon it as well as some vibration back to the tuning fork. Let us now assume a bead that has its own vibration which is exactly opposite that of the vibration of the drum head (zero point field). It appears to remain stationary because its vibration counteracts or cancells out the vibration of the drum head. I also like the idea of ZPF being used as breaks on Imperial ships (see sub-light engine thread). This still requires Kages approval, but it definitely is a way to solve the fuel and thrust problems of Imperial ships. There is very little that I can say other than, "Wow". I'm impressed. Extremely integrated... and also very convoluted. We now have eldar drive systems using ZPF, plasma exhausts and reducing the inertia of the vessel down to close to zero...? Actually the zero point field, the reduction in the effects of the inertial force and plasma exhaust are all tied together. As I was trying to explain above, the force which we equate with inertia is created by the fluctuating electromagnetic fields of the zero point field. By resonating at a frequency that cancles out the resonance of the inertial force, the eldar can cancel out the effects of inertia upon their vessels. To create propulsion it is neccesary to change the frequencey of one portion of the field to bring it back into resonance with the force of inertia. By doing this, the inertial force will push on that one facing of the ship, which will create forward momentum (since the force of inertia is cancelled on the opposite facing of the ship). As for the venting of plasma, I thought that i had read in the fluff somewhere that eldar vessels vent plasma. If this is not true, then it can be ignored. If it is true, then I was trying to integrate it into the working of the drive system. The efficiency of the inertial drive could be optimized by increasing the particle density at that point in the field where the force of inertia is pushing against the vessel (or field surrounding the vessel). The Plasma (ionized) gas would be used to increase this particle density. One side point. Since the field is attuned to cancelling out the resonant electromagnetic frequencies of the zero point field, other frequencies or electromagnetic fields can not be cancelled out. This is why the solar wind stil effects eldar vessels. As to specific comments...? None are forthcoming at the moment. I just have a vague suspicion of the concept but cannot, at present, put a finger on it. I'll let you know if something comes up but, when it comes down to it, even I reach a point where you say "Shut up and tell me how many dice to roll!" In other words, ultimately I'll be more sold when I see it operating on an eldar ship detailed in the ASP... I've tried to simplify the elements of the discussion as much as possible. Admitedly though, I might not be the best judge. Looking at the infomation and researching it for several weeks has made some of the concepts second nature. This means that ideas I might see as perfectly clear, might not appear so to those who are viewing this information for the first time. If you can give me an idea of what portions are convoluted or which you think need further explanation, I'll be glad to give it a go.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 9, 2004 11:42:03 GMT -5
Given the sails relative size versus the size of the vessel, they would be too small to generate propulsion on their own Not if the ship was ‘immune to inertia’, it would take the slightest touch to more the vessel, a single photon would have an effect. However I assume the ship isn’t totally immune to inertia (like the Necrons ships), so a sail is need to provide a large enough surface area?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 10, 2004 18:47:20 GMT -5
First off, any reasonable consideration of any of the theories give the death bell to solar sails as defined by the imagery orgiastic GW/BL... ...'Nuff siad. Looking at the infomation and researching it for several weeks has made some of the concepts second nature. This means that ideas I might see as perfectly clear, might not appear so to those who are viewing this information for the first time. And I agree to this... putting it into terms that people can relate to is always a problem. Amusingly one has to wonder... Can you put an RPG and a wargame - wargame the most important for people here - spin on what you're suggesting?
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Oct 14, 2004 9:18:21 GMT -5
Amusingly one has to wonder... Can you put an RPG and a wargame - wargame the most important for people here - spin on what you're suggesting? I'm not following what your asking here. Are you asking me to design rules for how the drive would work in the wargame and RPG? My apologies, but I'm still a bit under the weather from a bout of the flu (brain not working at peak capacity) so if possible can you give a more detailed explanation of what you meant by the above statement?
|
|