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Post by Philip on Aug 22, 2004 13:24:01 GMT -5
=Wraithbone Sails= Perhaps the sails on the Eldar ships collect and focus warp energy in someway?
Seeing as wraithbone has links to the warp, perhaps the business end of the sail is in the warp?
Perhaps the warp can 'pull' or 'push' the 'warp side' of the sail, and the inherent link of the warithbone transmits the motion through to the sail in the real universe?
Perhaps the Eldar are sailing the warp but in real space.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 23, 2004 9:56:14 GMT -5
That idea has been posted before and once again falls short of explanation, although in some ways it is one of the better versions. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly you come under the common problem of "thematic 'fluff'", i.e. the point at which the 'flavour' of each army determines the technology that is permitted to that army, at least in common argument. (It is, of course, fairly meaningless in general consideration.) Having 'warp energy' propel the ship comes into the (kind of) territory of the Jokaero.
Secondly, it broaches upon the subject of 'warp currents' at least for extra-solar transport (e.g. craftworlds) which means that craftworlds would more than likely be a bit more zippy than they are. Indeed, the same kind of applies to in-system travel. (E.g. relative velocties of warp currents in real space...)
Thirdly there is the concept warp travel is meant to be precluded from a system. This is, admittedly, the Imperium model (i.e. opening a portal) and so might not be strictly applicable.
Fourthly, and more tenuously, you're suggesting that there is a continual flow of warp energy from stars...
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 4:27:19 GMT -5
That idea has been posted before and once again falls short of explanation, although in some ways it is one of the better versions. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly you come under the common problem of "thematic 'fluff'", i.e. the point at which the 'flavour' of each army determines the technology that is permitted to that army, at least in common argument. (It is, of course, fairly meaningless in general consideration.) Having 'warp energy' propel the ship comes into the (kind of) territory of the Jokaero. True it is a bit long, but it just feels right considering the way the Eldar are and they way they use the warp, and their psychometric engineering. Secondly, it broaches upon the subject of 'warp currents' at least for extra-solar transport (e.g. craftworlds) which means that craftworlds would more than likely be a bit more zippy than they are. Indeed, the same kind of applies to in-system travel. (E.g. relative velocties of warp currents in real space...) Craftworlds don't have many sails. Perhaps is is down to 'area'. Thirdly there is the concept warp travel is meant to be precluded from a system. This is, admittedly, the Imperium model (i.e. opening a portal) and so might not be strictly applicable. Eldar are different, and have a far greater affinity with the warp. Fourthly, and more tenuously, you're suggesting that there is a continual flow of warp energy from stars... OK, this is part of my 'differential time theory' thread. I'm thinking that the warp flows evenly outside solar systems, but in a solar system things get choppy for two reasons. - Stars/ suns never have life, huge gravity and in the warp they form the 'calm pools' (black holes form 'dead pools')
- Populated planets have tons of life, and form great swirling eddies in the warp.
It is for these two anomalies, that travelling in the warp in a solar system is dangerous. However, for the Eldar, getting closer to these 'swirling eddies' would increase speed and available power to their sails. Therefore as Eldar get closer to a world with a warp sig, their ships increase in power. Otherwise they have normal flow.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 4:59:50 GMT -5
I don't know... it just seems an "icky" solution which overall doesn't gel. Then again, so does the gravity linked system (e.g. outside of a solar system craftworlds should be merrily whizzing along, at least if they want to).
Except that doesn't really fit with the 'fluff' either, does it? Planets (and quite reasonably so) would be a source of energy to flow outwards making it difficult to go towards a planet and, by inversion, much easier to go towards a star...
Which is an inversion of the grav model and would, once again, tie eldar ships to very specific areas of systems and/or system types...
Surely...
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 7:47:39 GMT -5
It depends on the way you look at the warp.
I got the impression from the fluff that the warp flows in a nice uniform way, but humans and 'warp sigs' creatures cause turbulence in the uniform flow.
Now that there are so many people in the real universe that also have 'warp sigs' that area of high population are 'no go areas' with regard to warp travel.
Also humans whipping along warp routes leave a trail of turbulence in the warp as the minds pass through it. Heavy travelled routes can become very 'choppy 'and affect future travel by causing navigation errors/ problems (Navigators can correct for this quite easily, but calculated jump are seriously affected).
This means that a Planet full of humans isn't generating any kind of flow, its messing it up. Also Psykers remove (channel) bits of the warp via their powers, so if there is any real 'flow' it is into the real universe not the other way around.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 8:30:17 GMT -5
It depends on the way you look at the warp. It does indeed. Everything kind of has a way of doing that... I got the impression from the fluff that the warp flows in a nice uniform way, but humans and 'warp sigs' creatures cause turbulence in the uniform flow. In that you would have my agreement... However, one must also remember that "Chaos" is not strictly linked to this requirement and, as such, can have an 'altering effect' on the warp outside of the direct instance of conscious/sentient thought. Now that there are so many people in the real universe that also have 'warp sigs' that area of high population are 'no go areas' with regard to warp travel. I would agree that some 'chop' would be caused, though I wouldn't go as far as to make them un-traversable. Surely by that logic the area around Sol/Terra would be off limits by that logic? I personally included a "distortion factor" which was a variable component relating to this... but admittedly it was lacking cohesion in the overall product. But then again I was rather playing around with the Beaufort scale at the time and the numbers involved were 'perfect' for RPG purposes. Also humans whipping along warp routes leave a trail of turbulence in the warp as the minds pass through it. Heavy travelled routes can become very 'choppy 'and affect future travel by causing navigation errors/ problems (Navigators can correct for this quite easily, but calculated jump are seriously affected). I would say this is entirely your interpretation and not one that I agree with (since it's not mine! )... it also seemingly buys far too much into an sea-going metaphor where the ripples are 'permanently' there. If you're too close then, yes, you can be affected. But the disruptive effects, for me, die down fairly quickly... Indeed, that is the point of 'stable warp pathways'. One could argue that they are either artefacts of some sub-structure to the warp (natural, not influenced by Chaos) or, equally, that in some instances they are the results of continued use... the rut in the road, as it were. And perhaps this aspect of the conversation can be shifted to the appropriate thread in Meta since it is no longer really OnT...
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 8:37:10 GMT -5
*Jumps to other thread.*
Back on topic: could zero point energy be used as a braking system to slow ships down (so they do not have to 'roll over').
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 8:56:21 GMT -5
Are not the technological ramifications of 'zero point energy' to Imperium ships a tad too significant? That is to say that there is otherwise no mention of the kind of technologies that might be possible...? I say this only because as it stands ZPF hasn't been entirely sold as a means of propulsion for the eldar.
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 9:03:01 GMT -5
I don't think ZPF should be used in a propulsion system for the Eldar.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 9:11:51 GMT -5
I don't think ZPF should be used in a propulsion system for the Eldar. Based upon what Destecado originally posted, neither am I. In fact, no system that I have thus far seen proposed has 'cut the mustard' as it were. It would seem that there is going to be a point of divergence from the 'fluff' in eldar propulsion then.
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 9:33:17 GMT -5
Their ships do have (small) sails...
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 10:16:05 GMT -5
Their ships do have (small) sails... Sorry, that was a fairly fragmentary response. What exactly does it pertain to? Are you referring to the fact that the sails are small and thus the impact of the magnetosphere on the ZPF (again not sure about this) will be small, or are you referring to your warp idea, which I don't particularly favour for 'in system' travel?
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 11:03:24 GMT -5
Sorry, that was a fairly fragmentary response. What exactly does it pertain to? Are you referring to the fact that the sails are small and thus the impact of the magnetosphere on the ZPF (again not sure about this) will be small, or are you referring to your warp idea, which I don't particularly favour for 'in system' travel? Yah it was a bit short. I'm thinking that they are way too small for some kind of solar sail. But it would (or may) be OK for a 'warp sail'. Warp sail seems an elegant solution and Eldar (or rather Elves) have a naturalistic feel to them and deep intuition, so could catch the current just right and nip around all over the place without a 'true' propulsion system. However I do see it cause problem as manoeuvrability is limited, but there again it may no matter as other races can not tell what the warp is doing inside a solar system with any accuracy - so other races will not be able to predict were the Eldar is going in the same way that real sailor on real sailing ship could predict the movements of another sailing ship based on wind and its sails. Maybe as an extra, perhaps the Eldar can 'reverse' the warp sail effect, so they can sail into the 'wind' (may have gone to far with that, but we are talking about the warp and it is weird).
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 11:17:54 GMT -5
I'm thinking that they are way too small for some kind of solar sail. Self-evidently. Hence the reason that we're having this discussion in the first place! But it would (or may) be OK for a 'warp sail'. Again, you would need an 'outflow' of energy from the sun to mimic the 'solar sail' mechanic as it is determined in the BFG rules set. Warp sail seems an elegant solution and Eldar (or rather Elves) have a naturalistic feel to them and deep intuition... Again, we're broaching on the territory of the Jokaero but ultimately I think that thematic army restrictions and the "Rule of Cool" are non-sensical... so could catch the current just right and nip around all over the place without a 'true' propulsion system. The mechanics of this would be horrendous, however, and you're going to end up with something which ultimately couldn't really be modelled in an RPG... Great way out if you're hand-waving and not applying it to anything, though. so other races will not be able to predict were the Eldar is going in the same way... And that's the other problem... too limited. Maybe as an extra, perhaps the Eldar can 'reverse' the warp sail effect... If there is a constant 'outflow' analogous to a wind then all they have to do is 'tack' anyway. That is basically the BFG mechanic in the first place.
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 0:55:35 GMT -5
The mechanics of this would be horrendous, however, and you're going to end up with something which ultimately couldn't really be modelled in an RPG... I suppose. Different agendas, my priority is to make it seem as 'real' as possible, so I can design better systems in my artwork. I see that is could be a tad difficult to put into game rules (but on a computer game it wouldn't be so bad). To me the Eldar are 'elegant' so I design elegance into their systems.
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