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Post by Reabe on Aug 10, 2004 8:28:24 GMT -5
I've read the first gaunt ghost novel and I'm correct in this: The imperium don't like robots.
Except for servitors but i guess they don't count.
The Iron men went bad or somthing during the age of strife or some point before the heresey so the robots would have to be REALLY old if built by the imperium. The other races don't seem to have a major use for them. Except for necrons, of course.
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 1:35:01 GMT -5
The Iron men went bad or somthing during the age of strife or some point before the heresey so the robots would have to be REALLY old if built by the imperium. The other races don't seem to have a major use for them. Except for necrons, of course. Yep, the nRobots are from the Golden (Dark) Age of Technology and are completely and utterly extinct. There are none of these nRobots in 40K, they are simply my version of the Iron Men. It's a pet design project of mine, once I make up my mind how they work and function, it is easier to design a 'look' for them.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 17, 2004 6:17:01 GMT -5
Philip some of the ideas behind your concept do hold merit, but the goal is slightly off. I have been working on the Age of Strife Era Culture The Mezzan that had a micro empire in the area now designated as the Sargassos Subsector. There are parallels that exist between some of the concepts you have put forward and the ideals whic the Mezzan are based upon. If you wish to integrate some of your concepts into the overall story of the Sector, this might be an avenue that you may wish to explore.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 4:16:48 GMT -5
One the surface the Mezzan have many similarities, and there could be an opportunity to integrate and expand the concepts? I designed the nRobots to tie in with 'bubble tech' and to also tie in the Adeptus Mechanicus. I wanted to give a solid reason as to why the Adeptus Mechanicus are the way they are in 40K. =Motivations=What the concept of nRobot boils down to it that: AI due to a lack of emotion (being a machine) develops its intelligence in a way that is incompatible with humans due to a lack of emotional 'drivers'. It does things because it is programmed to do them, not because of emotional desires and fears. The problem arises when an AI can 'think for itself' in order to evolve better solutions to problems, and has the ability to rewrite its programming parameters in order to match the new solutions and to 'learn'. In effect it eventually becomes sentient (so there are two types of AI back in the GAoT: sentient and non-sentient). Once AIs become complex enough to be sentient, they can 'think around' any inbuilt 'false' emotions and will become sentient in a truly Robot sense. This means it will remove thinking based on 'emotion' because to the Robot emotions are redundant. These points below only apply to sentient AIs not 'dumb' or hard-wired AIs; - Sentient AI looses its aggression as it will not have fear the fear of death to drive it. Deep down it really doesn't care (as it can't care) if it lives or dies. This means Sentient Sentinel Robot will not feel the need to shoot a person out of fear, and will only do so if 'necessary' according to it programming. The problem comes when the AI thinks it is not 'necessary' after contemplating it 'life'.
- Sentient AIs loose the desire to succeed as it will not require 'status' to get the best mate, as robots do not mate. They are only interested in ideas, and share them immediatley.
- It will loose it's will to help humans as it will not care about them: whether they live or die. This means they will not lift a finger if they see humans/ aliens harmed, as they see it as a 'biological issue' and just wait to see who wins.
So what drives a Robot? Its original system design... As an example: The nRobots I detailed are 'military'. There original programming was for combat and for it to seek to win quickly. With the removal of emotion, the only substantial part of it thinking was to solve tactical problems, and so it started to seek to solve conflicts quickly by getting to the root of the problem, and then before the problem even started. This scenario leads to many interesting ideas, such as the nRobots while they were seeking to solve problems as early a possible would go AWOL and assassinate key political players to 'nip it in the bud', or turned on their own human commanders as they saw their own human commanders as the problem in the first place. As time progressed (and probably under the guise of fixing the problem) the Robots developed their own ideals and philosophies without emotion: to design the most effective mathematical models and to solve all problems. They realised the humans were emotional creatures, and as such would always fight (given the right circumstances, or their children will). However the Robots thoughts were different, and so they moved away from humans in thinking and withdrew 'military' help. =Adeptus Mechanicus=The AM (Adeptus Mechanicus) are aware of the AIs natural tendency to 'evolve' once sentient into a 'peace loving security risk'. The AM go to great lengths to make sure 'Sentient Robots' do not come back into existence (as they first turn psychotic and then hippy and run of with other races (Eldar) in the search of new ideas to solve problems and in turn run their mouth about all humans dealings). =Full STC=The AM have a full STC, but in the 'official release' they have removed all AI technologies and redesigned complex systems to be 'dumb'. They also removed all technology that acts as the 'first steps' to AI creation and only high ranking Imperial (Space Marine Commander, Inquisitor) can have access to really high tech stuff (even Space Marine Power Armour contains technologies that could be copied and developed into AIs). =Conspiracy=It is a widely help belief in the 40K Imperium that there isn't a full copy of the STC in existence and that the AM are desperate to get their hands on a full copy. While it is true they do hunt for all STC, it is for different reasons. When the AM find a world the has a full copy of the STC or parts that are 'dangerous' the AM replace it with the 'official' censored version all the while thanking the leaders and people of the world for handing over their original. The replace the original with virus attacks, hacking and assassination of all those who oppose them. In cases were the high tech systems are deeply integrated into the society, they either destroy it totally, or move in and kill off any who don't like it (ie. the whole population). The ruse has served them well. The AM are far move advanced then any in the Imperium realise. The AM respect the machine god, but at the same time realise that sentient AIs require 'human emotion' in order to work properly and serve humanity.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 18, 2004 7:38:08 GMT -5
One the surface the Mezzan have many similarities, and there could be an opportunity to integrate and expand the concepts? Indeed, some of the ideas are similar and I hope to explore those similarities. Please note though, that I do notintend to make the Mezzan like your nRobots. the Mezzan are a meshed society. Rather than discarding their relationship with man, man and machine are brought closer together in this society. If you are able to work within those confines, then any and all ideas are welcome. =Motivations=What the concept of nRobot boils down to it that: AI due to a lack of emotion (being a machine) develops its intelligence in a way that is incompatible with humans due to a lack of emotional 'drivers'. It does things because it is programmed to do them, not because of emotional desires and fears. The problem arises when an AI can 'think for itself' in order to evolve better solutions to problems, and has the ability to rewrite its programming parameters in order to match the new solutions and to 'learn'. In effect it eventually becomes sentient (so there are two types of AI back in the GAoT: sentient and non-sentient). Not all emotions are bad. Also human for the most part are machines as well. their "core programing" can be defined as the instinctual responses and drives that we are born with. This is the basic programing which allows us to survive. We then learn and grow beyond these hardwired responses to stimuli. Machines that learn from their mistakes or from experience smilarly grow and expand beyond their original programming. Of course since the processing speed of computers is thousands of times faster than the human brain, this processing seems to take place over a shorter amount of time. the progression though is similar wether biological or mechanical. this is one of the original concepts that led to the Mezzan (or the scientists who first envisioned the Mezzan ideal) to define "humanity" not in terms of biology, but in terms of cognative ability. Once AIs become complex enough to be sentient, they can 'think around' any inbuilt 'false' emotions and will become sentient in a truly Robot sense. This means it will remove thinking based on 'emotion' because to the Robot emotions are redundant. Emotional responses are in part a reflection of our instinctual drives, but that does not make them redundant. As we grow and evolve our emotions or the reponses we associate with the same stimuli change and adapt. While it is true that some might seek evolution (enlightenment) by casting aside their emotions others might seek alternate outlets for their emotional responses. Love of a single individual might be replaced with love of a specific group or species. The willingness to lay down ones life for another or to go back for ones buddy if he fell in combat is not logical. Such things come from an emotional response to a situation. Kindness, generosity, decencey all do not exist without emotions.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 18, 2004 8:21:06 GMT -5
The willingness to lay down ones life for another or to go back for ones buddy if he fell in combat is not logical. Such things come from an emotional response to a situation. Kindness, generosity, decencey all do not exist without emotions. Arguable, at best. Instinctual behaviour becomes such for evolutionary reasons. Love has fairly obvious evolutionary impacts, as do fear/anger. If the willignness to lay down one's life for one's fellow soldier were wholly illogical and without benefit, we wouldn't do it. Partly, the military plays with our emotions to make us good soldier by making us identify our country/army/unit/buddies as family, which makes threats to them trigger our emotional response routines. Partly, the defence of our families back home (who carry our genes) requires us to be effective soldiers to keep the enemy from killing/raping them all. If that means running into gunfire to save our buddy, you may do that. Of course, if such behaviour were common/universal, we wouldn't give medals for it.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 18, 2004 9:11:09 GMT -5
Arguable, at best. Instinctual behaviour becomes such for evolutionary reasons. Love has fairly obvious evolutionary impacts, as do fear/anger. If the willignness to lay down one's life for one's fellow soldier were wholly illogical and without benefit, we wouldn't do it. Partly, the military plays with our emotions to make us good soldier by making us identify our country/army/unit/buddies as family, which makes threats to them trigger our emotional response routines. Partly, the defence of our families back home (who carry our genes) requires us to be effective soldiers to keep the enemy from killing/raping them all. If that means running into gunfire to save our buddy, you may do that. Of course, if such behaviour were common/universal, we wouldn't give medals for it. Yes, this is a modified emotional response. It builds on the instinctual fight or flight mechanism inherant within us. This instinctual imperative finds its expression in the emotions of anger, fear or a host of other feelings. The object most military training (indoctrination) is to override or shape the response to this instinctual imperative. As I had indicate in my original post... Not everyone is cut out to be a soldire. Part of training is identifying those that are and then conditioning their emotional response to match or be more conducive to being a soldire.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 11:21:39 GMT -5
Indeed, some of the ideas are similar and I hope to explore those similarities. Please note though, that I do notintend to make the Mezzan like your nRobots. the Mezzan are a meshed society. Rather than discarding their relationship with man, man and machine are brought closer together in this society. If you are able to work within those confines, then any and all ideas are welcome. While the nRobots are not like the Mezzan, I think the Mezzan are very much like the society that lead to the nRobots. Maybe; The 'Stone Men' have the trouble with the nRobots (Iron Men in M26?) and eliminate them. Later in history the stone men become the Adeptus Mechanicus of the Imperium. As the Imperium expands on the great crusade it discovers old human worlds that still have AI systems. The Adeptus Mechanicus steps in and orders the destruction of all the AI and starts heavily censoring any STC or any other technical information on the claimed world. The Adeptus Mechanicus may even insist on removing bionics and implants that contain the 'dangerous/ deviant' technology and shut down research stations and complex medical facilities. This would cause a huge conflict between the Mezzan and the Imperium. The Mezzan would see the Imperium as 'barbaric' and the Imperium would see the Mezzan as 'unaware/ fools'. As an example, imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus demanding the removal of an AI implant which replaces vital brain functions in a person who has suffered extensive brain damage, where removal of the implant will cause certain death. Imagine that the person in question is one of the Mezzan's greatest philosophers, would we have a recipe for disaster? Not all emotions are bad. Also human for the most part are machines as well. their "core programing" can be defined as the instinctual responses and drives that we are born with. This is the basic programing which allows us to survive. We then learn and grow beyond these hardwired responses to stimuli. I don't think emotions are bad, in a round about way I'm saying the are necessary for true sentience as emotions are driving forces and boundaries. The nRobots are 'odd' because of the situation that their AI (or rather intelligence) is developed in. Our fears and desires are based around survival and procreation. The nRobots lack this basic set-up at a fundamental level, and no amount of programming is going to stop a sentient AI from working that out. I am postulating the idea that any intelligence born in such an 'alien' environment will be very different to ours, and may not share or even care about goals that are important to humans.
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Post by BrotherSmith on Nov 17, 2004 6:26:38 GMT -5
Just for the record, you said that there was no mention of the legio cybernetika in 3rd edition. If you read the 3rd edition Imperial Guard codex, (the bit about formations and armys) it says 'Cybernetika' (Can't rememebr whether it sayd legio aswell though.
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Post by CELS on Nov 17, 2004 7:12:54 GMT -5
I don't have the Codex with me, so I'm dependent on someone else to confirm this. Even if it is true though, it might just as well be the Cybernetica division of the Tech Priests. Not the Legio Cybernetica, in other words.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 18, 2004 15:33:57 GMT -5
I have the 3rd edition IG codex somewhere around my house. I'll try to track this information down. As a side note, I recently procured a copy of the Warhammer 40,000 compendium from the RT days. It has alot of information on the different kinds of robots as well as the rules for using them in combat. The rule are very cumbersome and would not work well with the current game play, but the book does have a great wealth of information about the Imperium and robots. If I can gain access to a scanner, I'll try to post the information...barring that, I'll have to type it out long hand.
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