|
Post by CELS on Dec 31, 2004 12:49:56 GMT -5
What seems to be going on here is that you have posted a suggestion for the Anexus corporation that we don't find appropriate for the Anargo sector, or any sector for that matter. Just like others have done before you in this project, you designed a corporation that was simply too powerful. We don't want a universe where the Imperium has a monopoly on everything, but we don't want to go too far the other way either. I have explained this to you in a very, very long post, to which you replied "No problem. I'll move it." That, of course, doesn't solve anything. But I already said that. When Kage came, he pretty much supported what I said. The Anexus corporation cannot stay the way it is. Either you change it, or you take it out of the Anargo Sector Project. Sorry. It doesn't quite fit
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Dec 31, 2004 13:29:00 GMT -5
And is Macdonalds a micro empire that threatens the stability of human civilisation, I think not. All that happens is the cartels are given mining franchises on the fringes of the empire, hardly cause for concern. The adverse effect of fast food, which uses genetically modified products can threaten the civilisation, but the question is different. If that lousy clown, which is used in their ads used high-tech equipment equal to that of the military labs – this would have been the end for McDonald’s I guess. Even if they use this tech not in military sphere. It’s like uber-knife – it is not dangerous per se but it can be used to harm someone. As CELS said, there is no way that a corporation with such powers can exist for a long period in any sector. Backing by the Inquisition is good, but I guess then the shadow masters of humanity, will prefer to rule this corp. look for the nice IMHO stuff made by CELS here – it has ‘freedom fighter’, who want to get a better society, similar to depicted by you. However, note their methods
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Dec 31, 2004 13:47:41 GMT -5
How can it be to powerful, it has no weapons, no standing army, all of its ships are carriers and transports, it has no power over imperial worlds or governors, it only runs worlds for the imperium, worlds deemed of no great importance, its largest holdings outside of the home system are sigular, isolated mining operations in a few star systems. The only thing it does not have is total dependance on the Mechanicus, it does depend on support from the inquisition, the arbites, the administratum, the ministorum, the navigators and the astropaths. It is by no means stand alone in any way shape or form. Without Imperial support it would wither and die. So, how exactly is it to powerful. And don't compare me to others who have pushed for their ideas to be accepted please, and I do know who you were refering to, as I find that highly insulting as I have never done that. And I want an answer to the question I asked about proculus, its not like I make a big fuss about the company involvement. And to be honest you (CELS and Zholud) both new for a long time how this world was going to be, its kinda unjust for you both to turn on me at the last hurdle after all the work I put into it for you both to be happy with it. Its actually very hurtful
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Dec 31, 2004 14:07:56 GMT -5
How can it be to powerful Maybe 'powerful' isn't the best term for it, but I can't think of a better one. The problem, as I have told you before, is this... The corporation apparently has a lot of technology that is superior to that of the Adeptus Mechanicus, though you fail to explain how this can happen when A) The Adeptus Mechanicus has superior resources and B) The Adeptus Mechanicus wouldn't let them anyway. No, but you did create a very powerful corporation and that's all I said. Parden? What question? Turn on you at the last hurdle? I've not kept my objections to the nature of the corporation secret, have I? I wrote some pretty long and detailed posts explaining why I didn't like some aspects of the corporation. The problem as I see it, is that you dismissed my attempt to help you by saying that you would relocate the corporation. I said that this wouldn't help anything, to which you didn't reply. On top of this, Philip and Kage also posted, and they echoed a lot of the things I told you. You didn't really address the points they made either. Frankly, I don't see why you're so surprised to see that I still don't like some aspects of the corporation. Did you think those problems would just go away? You say that the corporation has the backing of the Inquisition and the Administratum. What does that mean? Certain individuals within the Inquisition may or may not have supported the corporation, but that doesn't mean they enjoy the full backing of the Inquisition. You say that it is of little consequence what the Adeptus Mechanicus thinks? Not really. The Adeptus Mechanicus is supported by the Imperium. When the Adeptus Mechanicus says that a corporation has technology that the Imperium would benefit from, then the Imperium gives the technology to the Adeptus Mechanicus. If the Adeptus Mechanicus says that a corporation has technology that is dangerous to the Imperium, then the Imperium destroys that technology, and possibly the corporation.
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Dec 31, 2004 16:46:59 GMT -5
And I want an answer to the question I asked about proculus, Proculus remains, no problem there. More later.
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Dec 31, 2004 18:57:37 GMT -5
Thank you zholud, that was all I wanted to know.
Yes I did, but no more powerful than ones already in existence.
It means that while the Mechanicus might object to some things there is pretty much nothing they can do about it, so long as the cartels don't abuse whats been given them. And it is not unheard of for private parties, not of the Mechanicus to have access to and the ability/right to make/manufacture/use highly advanced technologies. Nor is it not unheard of for very rich and powerful companies/groups to be able to pay for the raising of imperial guard regiments, and fully equiping them, now that is the job of the planetary governor is it not, so why would private industry be allowed to do that, and not say, go off and mine resources for the imperium, which would also directly contribute to the war effort. I'm citing crossfire as my point of reference for most of the above.
So the part where I mentioned that the eventual form the company will take, and where it was located would depend on the outcome of the discussion I will be having with destecado on the future of said company didn't adress those points. I actually PMed phillip with a response to his post, saying what I have just said, that it was probably going to have to change. I was only responding to kages post out of curtesy, he took the time to comment so he had the right to expect a reply
As far as I'm concerned the above points take in to account everyones input, especially yours, sorry if I was clear in my explanation of that.
This one
Basically I wanted to know if should bother doing anymore worlds that might mention the company in some small way, and whether or not to drop every single world that has any dealings with the company, that would be all of them bar one by the way.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2005 1:59:34 GMT -5
Methinks that I'm going to have to read up, once more, on Proculus and the 'introduction' of the company. As a general rule I can see problems with a 'company' running a world of the Imperium despite the precedence. Of course, my 'problem' doesn't mean that it truly exists.
And Proculus still awaits approval, regardless of what anyone says. Sorry to be blunt about that little ditty...
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Jan 1, 2005 7:36:49 GMT -5
I want to clarify several issues, before we clashed in final fight over Proculus and corporation. When I said the planet remains I meant only the fact that while I disagree with several issues there (see relevant thread for details), I think that my view can be just too biased. For me, Proculus can remain in place because it has almost no information on the corporation, thus the latter can be shaped the way we like. While I agree with add-on of some renaissance feel to high middle ages analogues of 40k-verse. This, among other things, means that merchant princes start replacement of crusaders, and with pen and abacus you may make more than with sword and shield. See similar thoughts in Angels of Darkness. However, they are hardly get more knowledge than monasteries at that time. I fully agree that in current version, the corporation is out of place in 40k.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jan 1, 2005 12:39:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Dazo, but I give up. I just don't feel that what I'm saying is getting through. It seems to me that the main problem is how this corporation escapes the long arm of the Mechanicus. The Adeptus Mechanicus is not all-powerful, but they are given help by the rest of the Imperium, since everyone figures that it is in their best interest to help them. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, basically.
If you're confident that you'll work this out, then... good. But I do think this will cause problems for you.
Good luck anyways.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2005 18:28:33 GMT -5
Zholud... Fair enough. I shall leave it in your hands with the caveat that as a world of the Imperium they are subject to the lex imperialis. Of course, just how subject is another thing, as the 'fluff' often shows.
As it is, the 'corporation' again sounds like a micro-empire. Run up a description of it and I'll see about finding a place for it in the Anargo sector... It would be good to have a non-Imperium human population in the 'present'. With that said, however, as currently described it is too problematic.
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jan 2, 2005 4:43:02 GMT -5
A description eh, well its involvement in anargo is very limited, it holds a few mining charters on a few worlds, proculus being its most daring venture to date, meaning the cartels are almost being left to their own devices. They have a asteroid mining venture in Seleca, they also do a lot of free trading with that world, ie they distribute the luxury items produced on seleca (this is where they make their profits). They do have something of a monopoly with that world, but only in trade nothing else. They operate a couple of highly profitable mining ventures on imperial worlds, where the redources which have to be mined are in very difficult places to work. That is it, the main world is to much of a hot patato so I won't have it in Anargo.
My idea was not for an all powerful company I promise you, just a sort of frontier expander, they would go to worlds the imperium deemed beneath their notice, or needed a fast return from. The cartels provide that, as they actually build colony habitation, mining equipment, transport vessels, they already have everything that would be needed. So rather than the Administratum having to bother with sorting everything out they just go to the Cartels and say, we need this world/asteroid belt producing such and such amount of Iron, and let the Cartels worry about how to go about doing it. That was a crude example but that is the fundamental idea I had when I came up with it. Is it really so un 40k
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 2, 2005 10:16:39 GMT -5
All such activities would be performed under the aegis of the adeptus terra, surely? How can such worlds be independent of the rules of the Imperium in such a case?
Furthermore, with all the 'colonies' that the 'corporation' is having it is already arguably becoming the dominating force in the economy of Anargo when one considers how expensive ships are, whether a 'corporation' counts as Civil of Merchant, etc., all come into play.
In other words, it needs to be toned down somewhat.
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jan 2, 2005 14:18:30 GMT -5
I don't know what you mean, they do operate to the rules of the imperium, they are not independant of the imperium. It has one small colony, and its not even what would be called a colony, its just mining operation thats a little more leniant than an inquisition held world would be. Well its only a big player because no one else has done anything like this, and thats not my fault If your buying brand spanking new ones yes, but it does happen that mega corporations in the imperium can afford it. Also they had a lot of ships to begin with, its rather narrow minded to assume that because a world is not part of the imperium it stopped building starships. They would run both types of ship, the administratum hands out shipping charters aswell, so its not beyond the realms of possibility that they would have both types of ship. And with the main world not located in anargo, there is more than enough space for other economic super powers, why not do one yourself kage, we could then have a kind of rivalry situation with lots of trade war potential.
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jan 6, 2005 6:56:06 GMT -5
If it makes any difference, this is another 'no' vote. The Admech forbids the development of advanced technology outside their own jurisdiction, and they have an entirely legitimate claim to do so, being as they are the 'official' tech-police of the Imperium.
Basically, if you have a quasi-independent corporate interest doing research, the Adeptus Mechanicus will stop them and probably lobotomise everyone responsible.
Look at it this way; if you have a forward-thinking approach to technology, you'll eventually reach things like true AI, nanotechnology, fluid consciousness and so on, right? And we know that these things tend to turn out badly, see the dark age of technology. Ultimately, you end up with a runaway tech-empire that you can no longer control. At this point, either they destroy you, or the Imperium does.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2005 22:52:53 GMT -5
Although to be fair the original cause of the DAoT was attributed to psykers. It says volumes that even GW realised that they needed a plageri... erm... reason for people to turn away from technology, even if it still doesn't make a great deal of sense the way that sell it...
|
|