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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 15, 2004 8:28:29 GMT -5
Is that celcius or farenheit Celcius. It's this one: 53,48,53 - A-VIt was a star without a planet originally, but a request to Kage for a HOT star resulted in him generating some stats for it. Nah, I love doing it the hard way. It's so much more fun.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 15, 2004 8:32:41 GMT -5
Then your world has a surface temperature higher than that of a K class star might i suggest you move it out further because at the moment you don't so much have a world than a blob of molten rock
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 15, 2004 8:56:57 GMT -5
arggg. moving it FURTHER. I only have 9 orbits, so much more and I'll have to scrap it completely, or change the star.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 15, 2004 9:11:26 GMT -5
You have nine orbits from the point at which it is actually possible for a body to be in orbit around the star with out vapourising. so the first inner orbit if it exists would be at a point at which rock would begin to solidify. so you will have plenty of orbits don't worry
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 15, 2004 10:10:28 GMT -5
My worry was about the temperatures not dropping fast enough. I forgot that the distance for each "orbit ring" increases exponentially.
What would be an acceptable maximum temperature range? Nothing I've got so far seems to work out.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 15, 2004 11:32:41 GMT -5
Well for comparison the surface temp of mercury is 350 degrees C so about that range i suppose, or find out the melting point of rock and try working from that Its about 700-1800 degrees C I think, so you might what to make the flares seasonal rather than try to cook the surface through normal exposure
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 16, 2004 0:13:01 GMT -5
Well,than Orbit 5 is perfect. It gives me a Base temperature of 411 degrees Celcius. That site I linked to above says that molten magma forms between 625 and 1200 degrees Celcius. With the maximum temperature being somewhere in the 3300-3800 range, and that being the maximum POSSIBLE temperature (doesn't have to get that high), it can indeed melt the equatorial regions during the peak of the summer.
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Post by zholud on Aug 16, 2004 1:46:45 GMT -5
I’d suggest you to turn axis of the world significantly and calculate the temperature spread between maximum and minimum within 1 day… by the way if you move on equator you have to move the fastest = greatest parallel Otherwise, I guess that ideas are quite good and will comment on detail later.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 16, 2004 1:50:28 GMT -5
Well, the prbital period is only 11 days, while the rotation period is 268 days, so "summer" doesn't leave much time for heating up.
This also means that the equator rotates at less than 2 kph, I worked out a formula to solve this.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 16, 2004 5:55:04 GMT -5
I'm not too sure how viable your orbiting facility is going to be. in the write up, you indicated that it was in geosynchronous orbit. If this is the case, it will still pass into the day side of the planet. This would mean that it is going to be exposed to the extremes of the day side, without the protective layer of atmosphere that the planet enjoys.
This might not be a problem if some way is devized to either deflect the heat or shield tha facility frm the extremes in temperature. Of course this makes the station vulnerable if someone disables or damages the shield. I'm not totaly familiar with the concept of shield ships, because I didn't read the books that the concept is based on. Where you planning to have a similar technology protect the orbiting facility?
With regards to temperature, you are still going to need to lower it more than you have currently. though the ground is no longer molten, it is important to consider its durability for the movement of such large objects across the surface. Even with the weight spread out on large tracks, the load will be considerable.
Before the ground reaches a molten state, it will start to become elastic and deform under enough pressure. The enormous weight might cause the ground to give way. rather than rolling across the surface, the districts may begin to become mired almost as if in mud. The districts don't have time to waste on trying to become unstuck.
Another issue came to mind as well. From your description all of this mining is going to take place in the dead of night, since the city stays to the night side of the planet. How far from the day side is the city? The city would probably trail close behind the setting sun rather than proceed the rising sun. This would afford the most time before sun rise, allowing for a full "days" work.
Of course a happy medium would need to be struck between trailing the sun side and allowing sufficient time for the ground to cool to allow safe travel. Perhaps they trail the setting sun by maybe an hour? This might allow for some residual sunlight reflected off the atmosphere. the city may therefore exist in the twilight of the setting sun.
There is also the possibility of reflected light. if I rememebr correctly, you spoke areas where the sun had melted the ground into vast sheets of glass.
Another problem with the extremes in temperature is their effect on equipment and machinery. The extremes may lead to metal fatigue which will cause equipment around the districts to break down at an increased rate. It may be difficult therefore to have the crawlers working for such a long amount of time.
A complete overhaul of a facility might be needed from time to time. Such a restoration or refurbishing would be difficult to accomplish while on the move. You may wnat to consider the existance of some place on the planet where such things can be done.
The other problem that arises is the fact that people are going to have to work in this enviroment. As it is, the current temperatures are going to require enviroment suits. this equipment is going to be bulky and may slow down the process of mining.
Another problem arises due to the planet's lack of water. You may wish to consider placing a couple of gas giants in the system with rings made of ice or a large asteroid belt where minerals and ice are mined. this would be shipped to the planet. You could come up with several ice cartels that ship water to the planet.
They may have contracts with several of the larger districts or houses. the smaller houses might have to buy from one of these larger families or straight from the cartel at an elevated price. Water smuggling may therefore become a lucrative business on the planet.
It may also be interesting to have a culture that does not live on the moving platforms at maybe one or both of the poles. Depending on the axial tilt of the planet, they may have several months of no sunlight in which to operate. Of course, this would be followed by several months of constant sunlight, but during those times they go underground. The poles would probably be geologically stable enough to support the construction of some type of structure.
Perhaps the poles also have facilities for building or repairing the crawling districts. Based on the size of the districts, it is hard to beleive that they could have been lowered onto the planet in one piece. They would have to have been fabricated or atleast assembled on the surface. The poles seem to be the best place for this to happen. There would have several months in which to build or restore a district, before it must get underway in order to prevent being destroyed by the advancing sun.
If as we have been discussing, the track that the crawlers follow around the planet is man made, it stands to reason that it was constructed before the crawlers. If the pole bases were the original mining colonies, then the ground arouind them might be nice an flat, but mined out. The crawlers were originally built to extend the range of the mining operations beyond the polar regions.
The track might corkscrew away from the poles in several different paths. A damaged district might disengage from the rest of the city and head towards one of the repair facilities. This is almost like an old or sick animal leaving the herd. It may be a time when pirates or raiders will try to descend on the solitary district, before it can make it to the safety of the polar regions.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 16, 2004 8:01:40 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts for the bases at the polar regions. If water needs to be brought to the planet, it would probably be best to have central storage facilities. A district wouldn't be able to hold enough on its own to make the trip to the planet worthwhile. I see the polar cities as having large cisterns underground.
Some of these cisterns are used for drinking water and other necessities. Others are used for cooling and power generation. During the months of direct sunlght, the heat will probably be pretty intense. The domes of the city would heat up rather quickly. What if there were massive pipes that ran on the inside of te dome with water from the cisterns.
The water would cool down the domes by absorbing the heat. the heat might be intense enough to turn the water to steam which is then transfered to power plants where the steam is used to turn turbines. Excess energy would be stored in large batteries to be used during the months without sunlight. there would of course be other forms of power generation, but this would probably be the most prevalent and least expensive. they don't need to burn any fuel, only harness the energy of the sun...after a fashion.
The polar cities would also provide a place for the rich to retire to (if they don't retire off planet). It could also provide for a permanent office for companies. the polar cities could also fill a need for additional labor for the mobile districts.
Even if every family on the district had a child and that child went through an apprenticeship and took over for the person before them, you would have a serious problem within several generations. The birth rate would not be high enough to replace workers lost to accidents or old age. Even if the birth rate met the necessary requirements, an apprenticeship would probably last at least 10 to 15 years.
The polar cities would provide the necessary recruitment posts for individuals looking to move up in the world. The pay on the mobile districts would be higher than what one might be able to obtain in the polar cities.
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Post by CELS on Aug 16, 2004 12:40:16 GMT -5
Wow, great feedback there, Destecado! Don't know what we'd do without you Another issue came to mind as well. From your description all of this mining is going to take place in the dead of night, since the city stays to the night side of the planet. How far from the day side is the city? The city would probably trail close behind the setting sun rather than proceed the rising sun. This would afford the most time before sun rise, allowing for a full "days" work. Not to mention that you want some time for emergency stops. You need a good few extra hours just in case one of your engines break down, or you have to take a large detour you didn't plan for... this landscape is going to be treacherous from what I understand, so staying just a couple of hours in front of sunrise is begging for a catastrophe. Well, sometimes, yes. But wouldn't the city want to stay still from time to time, to perform maintenance or actually do mining that they need do standing still? So won't they move between twilight and darkness, every few days standard? Of course, we need to see a temperature sheet to decide whether or not the temperatures will really be that extreme. I would argue that this City would be designed specifically so that wouldn't be necessary. Of course, there's nothing to stop them from digging a huuuge cave that could shelter them from the sun, but considering the multi-modular nature of the city, I don't see why a full overhaul would ever be needed. If the city is carried by a hundred tracks, you can always lift one up and perform maintenance at a time. Yep. It's far from an ideal mining world, but I suspect the Imperium has a lot of expertise when it comes to mining in hostile conditions. Asteroid mining is very common, for example.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 17, 2004 0:55:30 GMT -5
Where would we be without you, O Holy Brainstormer of Important Neglected Details?" I'm not too sure how viable your orbiting facility is going to be. in the write up, you indicated that it was in geosynchronous orbit. I hadn't meant for it to be in actual geosynchronous orbit, but rather keeping pace with the city on the ground. This was when the Cities only moved around the equator, so it'll need to be discarded. Now that the Cities is going to roam all over the place, I guess i'll have to. it won't be much trouble. 411 degrees isn't low enough? Solid rock doesn't even start getting soft until 650+ degrees, and actually melts somwhere between that and 1200 degrees (all Celcius). He he....rubber planet. Hopefully the temperature discrepancy will eliminate this problem. Gotta work out a temperature sheet to know for sure. This was my intention from the bery beginning, it must have gotten "lost in translation". They'd probably trail the sun by 2 or 3 days. It was just a neat idea for imagery, not really important to the planet itself. Like CELS said, a Temperature worksheet will be needed. It's a given that the metal used will be designed to resist heat, but wear-and-tear is still a tremendous portion of the "company's? daily budget. It's designed to do this on the move, since stopping for too long would be fatal. Even then, "too long" is quite a chunk of time, since the rotation period is 268 days. (This makes the maximum necessary speed of the crawler about 2 kph, so it may need to be shortened). Eeh, occupational difficulty of mining. Enviro suits were mentioned in my writeup, I think. I have several gas giants, I'll go about converting one or two into ice-suppliers....maybe even have one be oxygen-heavy, the other hydrogen heavy....ultimate water supply!?!? Or is that too "Star Trek Physics"? Water smuggling, hmmmmm.... Interesting. I did say earlier that water must be purchased by the workers out of their salary, so this opens up a new choice: Buy the expensive, guaranteed water from the "company", or go on the black market and purchase cheaper, but possibly impure water. Ooh, polar cities. This is definitely a nice idea, and gives me a reason to increase the population past 10-15 million. The only problem is those months of light, which would scorch/fry/ruin anything left above ground. With the size of the Cities brought into question, it'd be a minor problem constructing frameworks that can be easily taken down and concealed underground. Some sort of scaffolding would be neccessary , I'd imagine. Yeah, they are a bit big for one-piece construction..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry, I just had a hysterical laughing break. An image formed in my mind of a self-propelled city on tracks, with a warning label that reads: "Some assembly required". Ahem, back on topic. The polar repair facilities are most likely going to be a neccessity. Thanks again for the brainstorming! The polar bases will not be the original mining colonies. The Adeptus Mechanicus supplied the giant track systems out of their vaults in exchange for their now-considerable share of power in its governing. As for the track, I liked your Trail Blazers idea about a group of workers who go ahead and fill in any potholes/craters. Many rotations of the city would eventually pack it down. I Like the "wounded beast" imagery. Pirates would not be a likely problem, since the sun itself prevents approach by large numbers of unshielded ships. Small bands aren't going to be able to take over a city. Good point. Large cisterns of some sort will be needed, and water airlifted to the Cities's individual smaller holding tanks. Steam power?Well, I guess it would work. Seems kind of old-fashioned in the Imperium's age of Nuclear Fusion and waht-have-you. Permanent offices, yes. Retirement homes, no. It's not much fun having to live underground constantly, no different that living in the Cities, and having to wear big bulky and uncomfortable environmental suits aboveground. BIG Problem that I didn't consider. Poalr cities are definitely in.
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Post by CELS on Aug 17, 2004 1:10:59 GMT -5
Karnak smuggler: Zoggit, my last shipment turned out to be no good. Impure goods. Necromundan smuggler: That sucks, man. I once smuggled impure 'Slaught and it killed a hundred people and put twice as many in the hospital. What happened to those drugs of yours? Karnak smuggler: No, it was water, not drugs. It gave a whole block diarrhea... Necromundan smuggler: That's a damn shame... What!? Glyphstone made a silly joke- can't I? So anyway, what kind of Adeptus Terra presence do you see on this world? Would there even be an Arbites Precinct? And this is a big world. Would it be out of the question to have more than one city? I know there used to be many, and then they all merged, but still. The more the merrier. I don't see why the Imperium would be content with only one such city, considering the size and wealth of the planet. Also, let's hear more about this 'pirate' threat. What is this- the occassional bandits from Meksum who come to steal a few buggies and mineral shipments, or a highly organised force with their own mobile headquarters which makes shipments to the Meksum pirate cartels regularly?
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Aug 17, 2004 3:55:25 GMT -5
Smugglers: Adeptus Terra: Enough to monitor the tithes (and store them for collection). The Karnak Consortium (new company name) would manage all the other details that the Adeptus Terra would concern itself with. They are bureaucrats, and every company needs bureaucrats. Arbites: Again, probably just a token force, enough to guard the Arbites offices. Most of their duties would be covered by the private security forces of the Consortium's individual Houses,who would likely not appreciate "foreign" police forces conducting operations in their area. Pirates: I didn't want any at first, but I was falling back on the logic that they couldn't approach the system without the shield ships. This was hinged on the idea of alien raiders, humans are a different story. Not sure where they would hang out, besides the orbital station. If there are pirates or any noticable amount, they will most likely be your first suggestion (small isolated bands) since the Consortium would frown on anyone trying to leech off their profits, and would take steps to eradicate any pirate group that got too self-assured with itself. On a completely different note, it's time for........THE NAME GAME!! I'm going to divide the people on the planet into 15 highborn Houses, and name 4 or 5 of them with some minor background. The first will be House Arcadia as mentioned above, with the same background. The other 4 are unnamed as of yet, and it's going to be your suggestions that I pick from. -One will be a matriarchial family, the head of the family being the eldest female child. -I think one will be patriarchial, just to provide an opposite. The third will have its line of inheritance go to the eldest surviving child. This will be the smallest of the named Houses, as its heirs have a tendency to murder each other. -The last has no background concept as of yet.
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