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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 24, 2004 1:40:00 GMT -5
Now translate that into the 40k universe and see how the assumptions that you're making about automatic stack up to the 'fluff'...
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Post by Dazo on Jul 24, 2004 1:51:19 GMT -5
I think i understand what you mean, no robots, right. I have had the dubious pleasure of working in a factory before so i can tell you that you don't need fancy robotics just a few people a few nifty machines to get a lot done. I can tell you the end product is easily processed and packed its the stuff before that takes all the effort. And then of course youv'e got transport, mabye enormously long trains like thet have on earth at the moment might do for that. Ow my head hurts, i'm just going to have to increase the population again
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Post by zholud on Aug 8, 2004 0:17:51 GMT -5
It seems that I have to comment on this world… ok, so, what we have here? Below follows a list of tidbits, ideas, comments criticisms, etc. to shorten the post I’ll give quotes in italics and general stuff I bold. - aesthetics – it is much more pleasant to read if you have titles in bold as others did… not that it is a problem, but I just prefer it this way.
- Tithe Grade and Aestimare – they will be added later when we create a system behind them. At the moment their notion is not fully sensible.
- The deep ocean is home to a multitude of aquatic forms of life many of which can be exploited as food, – are they local or originally introduced by colonists? If local, with full evolution it is quite possible that most of them are poisonous without additional ‘manufacturing’ of them. And what are they in detail, I mean hot/cold blooded, mammals, that kind of thing. You may try to create a simple food chain pyramid for them, just a tiny bit. Also note that each next level of the pyramid spends energy from the food, so algae that is enough for a thousand men gives food for algae-eaters that can be eaten by just a hundred men and so on.
- Seleca has one large moon Rhian – large moon can give large tidal waves especially if it is massive and close enough. If your lad-mass has bay-like bottlenecks, the wave here is even larger. On Earth, IIRC the largest tides in such places are up to 30 meters…
- a bureaucratic council comprised of elected individuals representing – who has the right to vote, are there sex, age, wealth limits, both upper and lower in two last parameters. Recall that most village communities in Europe had male elders ‘councils’…
- The system works well and is very efficient. – usually overly pluralism-oriented systems are less efficient. See Eastern Tigers for example – problems with ‘democracy’ but sturdy economic growth. Most CEOs are also prefer not to ask opinion of ‘mere’ workers.
- prime minister, who is elected by the people – from what I recall there are no state in the world where PM is directly elected… of course I may err.
- On tithe system again – I prefer to think that central authority (sub/sector/Segmentum/Imperium level) sends auditors every n-years on the planet to re-evaluate its ability to pay tithes. So they are off-worlders, not local Administratum representatives. They still can be bribed of course.
- fanatical preachers are dealt with by having unfortunate accidents – you may add some tensions between the planet and our shrine-world sub, including Ecclesiarchal investigations, tariff and non-tariff trade barriers, etc.
- Meaning as long as you work – what happens when you cannot work anymore (age, accident…)?
- Seleca began producing her own transporters ships, – warp-capable?!
- Recently weapon factories have been built – what for? If you said factories that work with argi-products, its ok, but military? Recall the paranoid Imperium, they don’t want that world become fully self-sustainable and thus achieve a possibility to leave the Imperium.
- armour plate being both lighter and stronger than steel plate – do you really need it? you want to mass-produce ‘shell-suits’ for PDF r what?
ok, all for a moment, will add more later. I hope. All in all – good work… at least large
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Post by Dazo on Aug 8, 2004 0:49:46 GMT -5
Firstly thank you for being so constructive it should make it much easier to implement the changes/edits you would like to see. I will now try and answer some of your concerns/comments
Done
I was using the new system CELS came up with
Half and half, though some would be poisonous perhaps that could actually be exploited in some way, for medicines or toxins both would be quite valuble, what do you think.
Short answer, I don't know. The food chain sounds simple but the more i think about it the more complicated it gets i have no idea how introduced species would interact with native species. This is just to far beyond anything i understand about marine biology. I 'll have a crack at it but don't expect miricales.
How close, and would the mass of the moon have any bearing on its tidal effects
Thank god for that
My grasp of politics and government structures is limited, very limited, but i should be able to add most of what you want
*sigh* Alas no, kage fell upon me like the fiery mountain of the apocalypse when i suggested that maybe you didn't need the mechanicus to develop warp ships
You get a nice big pension
I don't understand the bit about tariffs, and this is mainly based on my own extreme dislike of people who preach(the in your face ones that is)
:Dhaha indeed, well the shells are a by product of the giant bugs thety harvest for food so there's no great hardship involved in attaining the shells. I just thought it might look good thats all, free armour
The weapons factory idea was just that i thought they could branch out in the export market, it would'nt have an impact on the agricultural output of the world so i didn't see the harm in it, what if they had got permission from the administratum to do it would that be alright
I have changed a few of the things you wanted though still having trouble with the religious and political aspects, oh yeah and the food chain bit. Also i'm moving the weapon factory to the outermost planet of the system
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Post by Dazo on Aug 20, 2004 1:30:40 GMT -5
Ok Zholud i've change/explained most of what you commented on, i think, could you have a look at it and let me know if its any good. Also some more of those helpful comments would be nice if there is anything your not happy with.
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Post by zholud on Aug 20, 2004 8:44:36 GMT -5
Ok Zholud could you have a look. Seems it ok, I only scanned it diagonally, more over week-end I hope
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Post by GroundZero on Aug 22, 2004 10:11:24 GMT -5
You seem to be playing on both sides of the fence on this, and it's very hard to tell where you're going with the planet.
On the one hand, its an agri-planet with food stuffs as the main export. Combined with the takeover by the Leskus Corporation, you raise a sort of American Indian/European relationship that is almost parasitic. Im not sure if this made the final cut, but you also mentioned Leskus selling off land on Seleca III which plays into the above relationship.
However, you grant the planet high technology, which would lead to pollution, over population, and other catastrophies for an agri-planet.
Are there any predators bigger than people on this planet? Things to hunt, not breed I mean.
If I may suggest that you scale down the government to local townships that pay a food tithe (a percentage of annual production for the town, overseen by a currupt or scrupulous administrator, depending) to the capitol which is responsible for gathering all the exports and streamlining distribution. Local governments with town hall meetings and such, with high technology only when it comes to food production. If I am correct, agri-planet's do not export food as a commodity and therefore would not profit from it, so where do they get anything off-world? Realistically they should be around TL3 or 4 for anything not directly related to food production of PDF.
Just a couple thoughts, GZ
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Post by Dazo on Aug 22, 2004 10:45:09 GMT -5
Ouch Kidding, thats some nice critisism I'l try and explain where i'm coming from It wasn't so much a take over as a partnership which I had envisioned. A mutually beneficial arrangement with the people. Private industry does tend to make people rich does it not. I see the Leskus corp. (now the UTC) as being more like the united nations, a helping hand but who also want to make a bit of money in the process. The food is tithed to the imperium, but what isn't given to the imperium or consumed by the populace is sold. There are also many luxury items that arn't tithed. Every one seemed to think Seleca was to nice a place and wanted a bit of conflict and intrigue, this was my sledgehammer attempt at introducing that. These weren't dumbass colonists these were ex imperial guard, free citizens who were from a fairly advanced world to begin with, there was no way they were going from blasting around in chimeras to pottering old horse and carts. I also reject the notion of high tech means high pollution, TL 9 should be well into the clean energy source department. Also don't forget their is only 7 million people not 6 billion like on earth Why. Not on land, not any more, unless they were good eatin, in which case they would have been domesticated. The seas are a different matter, you do not want to go swimming in the deep ocean, you really don't. They let the company mine the crap out of the rest of the system with a percentage of the profits going to the government. They also allowed the building of factories to take advantage of the mineral wealth in the system. So much if not every thing the selecans need is available, they do not really need to import stuff. I like, I like alot, could you elaborate a bit more, if you want to of course. Or tell me how i should modify what i have already written to make it more workable. Corrupt officials are executed on Seleca by the way.
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Post by GroundZero on Aug 22, 2004 11:48:25 GMT -5
I didn't want to seem critical because I really like the idea and where it's going.
Technology costs money to produce and energy to work. With limited resources, a benefactor company would want to distribute these to where they will aid in production and profits so they can help more people. On an Agri-planet, high levels of technology would only be necessary for food production and distribution (Ships, mills, cargo transports) but would almost certainly exclude transportation for citizens or other such luxuries.
As spread out as Seleca III is in terms of large oceans and smaller continents, travel between population centers would be restricted almost entirely to trade (as I doubt anyone would take the Lusithania over such treacherous waters). This isolates the population centers and requires a local government to handle day to day duties and a central government to organize the cities and to represent the planet.
These local governments would probably be as democratic as possible. Think town hall meetings, votes by hand count, et cetera. The society seems fairly gregarious which would assume that the citizens are content. This again favors stability but at the cost of isolation.
Im all over the place with these thoughts, so here's a quick sketch of the hiarchy I was talking about.
Capitol City (organization and beauracracy, no farming) - Imperial Commander of Seleca III - Ministers of Commerce, War, Justice
Province (an area such as a continental coastal region united by a common food production - fishing, farming, hunting) - A round table of representatives from each city
Town (self-explainitory) - Adults vote and elect a representative who's responsibility it is to maintain the village and utilize the structure of provinces to aid in solving problems (droughts, floods, bad fishing season, disease)
Each province also has an overseer who's job it is to observe the meetings and liase between the Imperial Commander and the individual provinces.
Tithes would be paid up and at each level a chunk is taken. For example, the Imperial Tithe to the hive world is 40% of production. The farmers would pay 80%, 10% would be sold to fund the provincial governments, 30% to fund the Capital and maintain a small group of on-demand security in the form of orbital sattellites or maybe a garrison posted on the sister planet with monitoring stations and beacons. Security needs to be planet wide, not local as threats will manifest in alien invasions and pirate raids, and not from other provinces on this relatively peaceful planet.
The general workers would use advanced irrigation techniques and clean fuel for transportation, but the use of horses is not out of the question. In undeveloped areas, running out of fuel is bad, but a horse lives off the land and can travel much further and is more reliable. Im not saying horses, but maybe some alien creature that can be domesticated for transportation (I remember reading something of a giant beatle). Remember the town only needs to transport to their provincial stores, who then take the collected food and pay the tithe to the Planetary commander who ships it off world.
I can't think of anything else, but I hope this little bit helps clarify what I meant.
GZ
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Post by Dazo on Aug 22, 2004 12:09:38 GMT -5
Nah I was kidding, you develop a tough skin fairly quickly here Yes quite true. But a more efficient transport system would require better roads, railways, air terminals, space ports all of which benefit the people in the long run. Food production was increased massivly, this was the slant, they were producing more than the imperium knew about. As to the rest, well the selecans already had cars, trains, ships and planes. Thats a reasonable assumption, but the major continents are connected by a shallow lagoon sea, during the winter months you could walk between continents, other times you would take the hovercraft. But there is as you seem to point out no real need for such global movement exists, the do have a good telecommunications network. This is from their military past, information makes you stronger and so on. And the rest of your post is pure gold, gold ;D I'l now try and intergrate the ideas you have given me...well, not right now its late.
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Post by GroundZero on Aug 22, 2004 12:18:36 GMT -5
Absolutely enjoy. Im just shocked all of those government and history classes are actually useful for something other than teaching government and history.
GZ
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Post by zholud on Aug 31, 2004 7:38:49 GMT -5
This post is the answer on original Standard representation of Seleca, part one. Just to let you know, usually Terran governments also get energy ministry (sometimes combined with mining), finance ministry (one that makes and control budget, unlike economy ministry), health care/social sphere ministry, plus sweet add-ons like sport, youth, etc ministries. Not that you have to have them but just to enlighten you a little bit. They or you meant he/she?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 31, 2004 8:33:49 GMT -5
No no i like those ideas, it was just at the time i couldn't think of any others, so i'll add them to the write up. Yes he/she, i'll change that With money, thats how its normally done, I do state that not all officials can be bribed so tithes do go up every now and then. I couldn't find the bit this relates to Really, you don't think that might lessen the scale of the disaster somewhat Simply, yes, the other worlds in the system are populated to a degree so resources have to be moved around. Also tithe ships don't travel all the way in system they go to Seleca VI which is a sort of industrialised warhouse world. So the in system transporters are needed to ship the vast majority of its tithes to the outer system. Along with everything else thats mined or manufactured. They don't, shogati heavy industries do, I think I explain this bit in part 2, stick with it, it all makes sense in the end Of course if your still not happy once youv'e read it all
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Post by zholud on Sept 7, 2004 10:14:27 GMT -5
Here comes the much awaited continuation of my comments on Seleca SR. I’ve seen comments on part one and will discuss them later. dense atmosphere more oxygen in each litre of air, i.e. smaller lungs are enough to breathe, thus smaller chest. Your pressure is not enough to lead to ribs enlarging/thickening. Gravity has no affect on radiation, atmosphere may have affect, but not necessary in ultraviolet spectre. Moreover, darkness of skin depends on melanin in it, so e.g. Japanese almost don’t tan on even equatorial sun… they go sick however. Don’t play too much into it… most people, who actively practice fitness/bodybuilding, from ones I know at least, do not drink much and often don’t drink at all. Of course, we are mature people and may add such stuff, no problem, but to have fitness drunkards without any mention of alcoholics on Seleca seems wrong. From what I recall they weren’t engaged in any protracted struggle on their planet for millennia. Moreover, they are farmers and workers, who still spend quite a lot of time at work… I understand, it sounds cool to have planet full of die hards, but isn’t it bordering on munchkinism? + psyche not psyke, despite word psyker… they work, strip lasguns… and still get time to sing? Your corporation is too easy to its employees, who got too much time for hobbies. Again what for such a large PDF w/o external threat? Maybe 1% active and 4% on reserve standby? I’d prefer even smaller numbers but its ok… after all it’s your world. PDF + militia + every household w/ a gun… is it Cadia we’re speaking about? I guessed you already counted all armed forces in PDF… understand, it is unearned profits that can be otherwise collected by your corporation… they should minimise troops that eat and not produce… I call for Exterminatus here – free thinking population, armed to the teeth and disrespectful to Imperial Creed… and now they are professional guerrilla fighters… only virus bombing and re-settlement will help Above passage is a joke, but not for joke’s sake. uh, how old are those autoguns now? All-in-all I guess your world it too militarised… you may attempt to create a constant large scale theat for them, otherwise they are just too expensive IMHO. During Age of Strife almost no colonisation has happened… if was Age of Strife after all… +history post ice age – nice stuff. who? Were are they from? Whose treasury? This is linked to a question who controls system resources – it can be sub-sector capital or Administratum for example. +moon is also ok.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 10:55:41 GMT -5
Right well i'll leave out any mention of that then, there is higher gravity on this world so maybe they cancel each other out No but core density and composition will and since density has a direct correlation to gravity....but your right I should have made that clearer I will amend that hahaha I know it sounds strange, but i'm actually writing from experience, don't forget i'm english and as a nation we could drink the world under the table. My two best friends are very into fitness but they also drink alot(as do I) the motto is work hard play hard. Having said that would you feel better if I said they drink on their days off(week ends) rather than vast amounts all the time. Several points, they learn how to do that in school, very interesting phisical education lessons on seleca. The corporation does not control seleca they have a mutually beneficial arrangement I shall endeavour to make this more apparent in my revision of the SR. and as for the singing, well they don't work every hour that is sent and music is classed as being beneficial to the mental well being of the people. Oh, phew, good, good we're all happy no changes excellent Well no, every one's got a gun yes but they are not running around with them, they would be locked in a secure cabinet out of the reach of the children, ready to be used in case of emergency. All i'm getting at is these people are not helpless sheep, why must an agri world be populated by defensless fools who don't have the forsight to protect themselves and their families from invaders. As far as i'm concerned they are decended from imperial guard who when they colonised this world set down in law measures to protect future generations from the calamities they had seen befall others. I also don't think that having highly trained PDF is really worthy of utter annialation, so they have special forces, thats about 500 men, thats it, not what i would call a threat to the imperium. couple of hundred years or so, they still work, as they are looked after Ok i'll change that another company from the same world as leskus corp., the world survived the age of strife well, so the powers that be on that world were quite powerful, and they made deals with the administratum when they were rediscovered I thought it was the system governor that controlled resources, the only thing the administratum should be getting their hands on is the tithes. But without any kind of concrete system in place to describe imperial economics i don't think I can be blamed if I get something wrong
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