|
Post by Pudding on Nov 7, 2004 9:51:18 GMT -5
i'd like to share part of my life experience re: oppressive governments and information. i grew up in Asia, and I've lived in China, Malaysia and Saudi Arabia. i won't go in depth, but suffice to say these are three examples of 'closed societies' that exert controls in varying degrees and methods. Malaysia threw a friend of mine in jail for daring to suggest that a lawsuit against the International School in KL got preferential treatment because the judge hearing the case was a friend of the plaintiffs. China, of course, allows foreigners to watch CNNI, but not its own citizens, who are limited to local sites, but allows satellite TV, provided the government approves content. Saudi Arabia, which i think is actually very close to the Imperium in many regards, allows TV, radio and internet, but you can only get (legal) internet access through an approved provider, which is owned by one of the 5000 princes at large, and blocks access to any site that's on the 'list' (this list includes, interestingly, Rolling Stone, the Register, and other seemingly harmless sites), while radio and tv inside the kingdom constantly, and i mean constantly, run some form of Islamic programming. the only exception to this is during Ramadan, when a wildly subversive show called Tash ma Tash (the name of the protagonist) is allowed to be aired. newspapers risk being shut down if step over the line, and any Imam's whose sermon doesn't meet the linking of the government gets fired on the spot.
etc. of course, in all three of these nations there's plenty of illicit information floating around, and it's worth noting that it is in Malaysia where there is the least resistance to the government. my point: the Imperium is surely not so homogeneous that only one approach to control would be taken throughout the galaxy, ranging from the maddeningly devout, who gleefully burn anyone that spells a saint's name wrong, to the largely secular governments that do as the Inquisitors tell them, until they go away, at which point the go back to just sending in the tithes and keeping their heads down.
or that's my theory. you can tell that diversity is a big theme with me.
re: the Alpha Legion, i'm not 100% on the Alpha Legion's background. the Nomin do not make tactical alliances, so they'd only ally with a group if their goals were at least convergent, which a group devoted to spreading Chaos cults would not have. the planet side Nomin operatives might accidentally conspire with some Alpha Legion operatives (though not the Legion themselves, since i'd imagine they would be kind of obvious) over pamphlets or what have you. the Nomin, though, don't approve of the use of violence to instigate rebellion, and would never intentionally harm civillians. they'd attack an Arbites precinct, but not until they'd already built up considerable support among the locals, so the attack would be more to give people hope rather than to actually kill arbites. etc.
this is something i need to work on, but re: the Alpha Legion, if they're for Chaos the Nomin would not ally with them knowingly.
edit: re: Nomin factions falling in with the Alpha Legion, this is very likely, though they would be 'thrown out' by the off world commanders once they started along that path. if anyone wants to have some former Nomin guys working with the Alpha Legion go for it, PM me if you need any specifics.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Nov 7, 2004 10:04:49 GMT -5
I would be very careful when comparing current regimes on Earth with the Imperium, while the Imperium comes over as harsh by our standards it should be noted that there are ‘real’ practical reasons for the systems they use.
Unlike 40K our Earth does not have to contend with a Chaos Gods like Tzeentch.
Edit: Added
All worlds that have open systems like the internet fall to chaos, however the Imperium will do all it can to save a world from itself: assassinate pro-internet leaders, destroy telecom networks, hack and bring down online banking systems, and eventually remove the technology from the world.
Obviously without ever actually seeing Chaos the world in question would be extremely angry at the Imperium’s actions but at the end of the day, what choice do the Imperium have?
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Nov 7, 2004 10:14:26 GMT -5
i take it you've never been to Saudi Arabia. let me explain:
Halloween rolled around, and so accordingly, I rolled out some Poe stories for my students to read. in our discussions, the question of possession came up. bear in mind my students were Lebanese, who are the most secular, flesh loving people in the Mid East, but without exception, my students swore to me that possession was real. i explained to them the theory that possession was really some form of psychosis that was blamed on demons before we understood mental illness, and had several angry parents calling the school the next day to complain about me telling their children this or that heresy.
in Saudi Arabia, djinn, witches, magic, possession, etc, are all very real. to them, they do have to contend withTzeench (in one form or another).
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Nov 7, 2004 10:21:32 GMT -5
in Saudi Arabia, djinn, witches, magic, possession, etc, are all very real. to them, they do have to contend withTzeench (in one form or another). Hence their social systems, but as I said before, unlike our world in 40K the daemons are real and proactive. If a person on our world mixed with other races and cultures and took the time to understand new perspectives it would expand their ideas for the better, in 40K it would confirm their worst fears. 40K is a very different set up.
|
|
|
Post by malika on Nov 7, 2004 11:42:59 GMT -5
Well that could be an interesting twist too...have the Nomin not believe in Magic, Daemons, etc. They would want to see scientific proof for it, but they dont have the resources to research these things, so they might call them illnesses etc. [not serious]The Nomin would see a person who is possessed by a Khornate Daemon not as a Chaos Daemon creature, but as somebody with a psychological illness[/not serious]
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Nov 7, 2004 12:08:05 GMT -5
You mean in the 5 seconds before they were torn limb from limb. The madness slant is actually a good idea, the nomin in their ignorance of such things would prove to be quite a liability to the imperium. If they were ignorant of such things of course
I kind of never want to now, pudding you must have balls as big aas church bells to go where you go knowing what you know
And again, since no one pays any attention to me, pudding your ideas and phillips are not mutually exclusive, they can exist within the same universe with ease. The nomin would only be a tiny presence within anargo, so the only thing you have to deal with are there beliefs and the actions the take because of those beliefs. I'm quite sure the could get their message across without an internet, maybe in there heartland where they have a greater presence that type of communication may exist, but in anargo they would probably just make do with whats to hand
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Nov 7, 2004 13:33:52 GMT -5
And again, since no one pays any attention to me, pudding your ideas and phillips are not mutually exclusive, they can exist within the same universe with ease. The nomin would only be a tiny presence within anargo, so the only thing you have to deal with are there beliefs and the actions the take because of those beliefs. I'm quite sure the could get their message across without an internet, maybe in there heartland where they have a greater presence that type of communication may exist, but in anargo they would probably just make do with whats to hand hey, i am with you on this issue: the internet question came up re: where the Nomin got their information from, not how they distributed their message. i kind of assumed they wouldn't be able to use Imperial networks, and would resort to handing out hardcopy pamphlets. i feel like i've said this ad nauseum, but i'll say it again, i'm not forwarding this as 'the truth' just my version of it. i'm not asking anyone to believe it. re: not believing in Chaos, the Nomin ascribe to my tachyon theory ( the warp is a tachyonic universe), and so are well aware of the warp and the perils that lie within. this detail is kind of set, since the Nomin have no navigators (long story) and so rely upon computers to navigate the warp etc. not important now.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Nov 7, 2004 15:43:00 GMT -5
I can understand that. One of the major goals of this project, however, is to answer a lot of important questions in Warhammer 40,000 to make the universe consistent and coherent. GW follows the 'rule of cool' a lot, and it would seem that they write some of the fluff without really thinking it through sometimes. The boltgun is a perfect example of this, with its 'depleted deuterium'. Having several different interpretations of the Horus Heresy, the creation of the Primarchs and the life and status of the Emperor creates a lot of problems. For one thing, your interpretation invalidates a lot of fluff which has Leman Russ being born before the Horus Heresy and doing various things before and during the Horus Heresy. It also creates problems for at least one Black Library novel in the Ragnar Blackmane series by William King, I think. If you don't like the fact that we have Leman Russ being born before the Horus Heresy and Horus corrupted by Chaos and killed by the hand of the Emperor, I suggest you consider the ASP interpretation biased. In your head, let the ASP interpretation be wrong, just as you assume that most post-RT fluff is wrong Or just give up the whole idea of Nomin in the Anargo sector. A damned shame though, since they make a colourful addition to a colourful setting.
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Nov 8, 2004 6:57:30 GMT -5
Or just give up the whole idea of Nomin in the Anargo sector. A damned shame though, since they make a colourful addition to a colourful setting. i don't feel like i'm being given much of a choice. if my options are accept that, as far as everyone else is concerned, the interpretation i'm forwarding is wrong, or continue this elsewhere, i'll roll the dice and hope i find a place where my ideas are at least given room. i'm not asking people to beleive me, but it's not a good feeling to be told you have to be wrong to play. if there's not room then i'll bow out gracefully, rather than banging my head against it, but i don't see why it can't be left uncertain. half the fun (to me) of the Nomin is the fact that if they are right the history of the Imperium is turned on its head, which provides for high drama. however, if there isn't room for uncertainty, there really isn't room for a faction that's attempting to rewrite Imperial history.
|
|
|
Post by malika on Nov 8, 2004 7:13:42 GMT -5
I dont mind if they have a different idea of Imperial history...just dont state if they are right or wrong...maybe they are partly right, or fully right...or fully wrong...it remains a mystery.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Nov 8, 2004 7:33:53 GMT -5
If that is how you feel, Pudding, then I guess there is no solution to the problem and you're better off somewhere else. Other members have chosen to set aside their differences and work with the ASP setting eventhough their personal interpretation might differ (just ask Philip ), but if you don't want to, then I guess you have no other choice but to leave. Just to make sure though, Pudding, I recommend that you e-mail Kage about this. You never know; I might be mistaken about the possibility of including the Nomin. After all, he did invite you here, didn't he?
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 8, 2004 13:07:24 GMT -5
Can we dispense with discussing the absolutes of truth? Truth is Not an abslute. It relies on the experiences and preceptions of the idividual. As such, what one person beleives to be true, will not always agree with the truth of another individual. Example: If you were to take a statement from 10 people who witnessed an accident, you would get 10 different versions of the truth. There of course may be some information that was constant throughout (the facts), but each would have its own slight variations. These variations could be caused by something as simple as the angle from which each witness saw the accident to something more complex as fiddling with their stereo or being otherwise preoccupied with somethin else when the accident happened. The data of the accident is processed through our minds, the thought processes of which have been constructed from our daily experiences. Human memory is essentially reconstructive in nature. The experiences for each individual differ slightly, their interpretations of the data will also differ. Does this make the truth of either person less likely? No it is simply their point of view of the events. There is nothing wrong with a point of view. That said, with regards to the ASP, there must be a main stream or dominant point of view to frame discussions. The Nomin are free to have their point of view on how events transpired. While it may not agree totally or at all with the historical canon as presented by the Imperium (or at least the ASPs dominant interpretation of the canon fluff) this does not make it any less valid to the Nomin....it does however make it Heretical and false to those who believe and follow the Imperial dogma. Pudding, I know that you have stated that you are not out to win people over to your interpretation of the fluff, but the Nomin are. They want to prove that their interpretation of events are right and that the Imperium is wrong. The Nomin seem just as dogmatic as the Imperium. It is a fight for the hearts and minds of the average imperial citizen. I did also want to point out that there may actually be a text that gives the date of Leman Russ' birth as taking place after the Horus Heresy. A discrepancy in dating could have occured in many ways. It may be that the date of birth was transferred from the local calendar, to the Imperial calendar and there was an error in the conversion. This has happened in our own history. We need only look to the existance of the Julian, Gregorian, Roman, etc. calendars, to see how discrepancies could occur. The fall of the golden age left human worlds seperated for thousands of years. Is it not safe to assume that the calendars such worlds used mightbe based off their home system rather than on any galactic calendar? Is it therefore not possible to assume that the dates given would need to be transcribed or converted over to the Imperial caldar, thus opening the possibility of calculation errors to occur. It could have also been something as simple as a transposition error or a misprint. How many texts do the Nomin have that reference the specific date of Lemon Russ's birth (arrival on fenris)? One thing that I have found in my own studies, especially on the internet, when researching information, always find corroboration of the data on at least 2-3 sites. There is also the possibility of mistranslation that can occur. Again with worlds that are seperated for so long, it is possible that they have developed their own languages or at the very least, different dialects of the galactic language from the golden age. A word that has one meaning in Imperial Gothic might have another meaning or at least an alternate meaning in a given dialect. Slang words and idiomatic expressions are good examples of this. Slang and idiomatic expressions are usually culturally based. They usually arise among societal groups that share common interests or experiences. They can be a form of abrieviated speach or as an attempt to be exclusionary or mask what is actually being discussed. Thus using words cake or dough to refer to money would be clear to the intended audiance, but someone outside of that group might get something completely different from the conversation. Idiomatic expressions are similar. These can be linquistic short hand, such as "Sorry I was a million miles away". This doesn't mean that the person was actually a million miles away, but that his mind had wandered and he did not hear a single word that the speaker said. If an individual not sharing the same cultural experience as the above two parties (speaker and listener) were to read this exchange, they might think that actual physical distance seperated the two....or maybe that the listener had be astrally projecting while the other person was speaking. Last but very much not least, is the possibility of the text actually being false or intentionally misleading. Most people would agree that the verasity of the stories that appear in such tabloids as the Enquirer or the Star is low, yet they seem more than willing to accept stories from other media sorces as the gospel truth. Anyone can write a book and have it published. (Of course some people have to pay to have their books published rather than being paid to do so). One must question the credentials of the writer as wel as what their agenda is for writing the book. In fact, let us extend this beyond books to all media. Take for instance Fahrenheit 911. In his press releases, Michael Moore has stated that his intention is to make sure George Bush was not re-elected. I don't want to make this thread a political debate about the movie or the election, but knowing the stated agenda of the maker of the film, should it contents not be called into question? this is not saying that the information is wrong, just that individuals need to go out and verify the facts of the movie from other sources. It may also help Pudding if you can give us an idea of the documentation or texts that the omin are basing their argument or ideas off of.
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Nov 8, 2004 14:36:50 GMT -5
re: my sources, Rogue Trader. RT says the Emperor died of old age, lists Russ's birth in M32 and generally goes on and on about mutants etc.
re: the rest, i'm well aware of how subjective perception is, and you've certainly listed many reasons that the Nomin could be wrong. let us, however, make sure we seperate in character statements from out of character statements.
in character, the Nomin are dead sure they're right and that the Imperium is based upon a religion of lies meant to keep people obediant.
out of character, it's just my opinion, and one i formulated because i liked the old fluff better than the new fluff. i'd love for people to agree with me because being a lone nut gets lonely, but if you think i'm wrong, that's cool. i'm cool with people sticking to their own stories, but i kind of expect to be allowed to do the same.
so CELS is saying Anargo has one truth, and that the Nomin are wrong. Destecado seems to be against defining one truth but i'm not sure. Malika and Dazo sound like they're happy leaving certain questions unanswered. i'm confused.
if i haven't made it clear i do want to work on the Nomin here, but not if it means saying my premise is wrong. i don't want to make anyone change their out of character opinions, in case anyone thought i wanted everyone else to agree with me.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Nov 8, 2004 15:35:37 GMT -5
So, what do you need to stay here, Pudding? As you may have noticed, we have a time-line for the Anargo Sector Project, which sort of falls flat on its face if we have different opinions about the history of the Imperium.
Whether or not you work under the assumption that you're right or not doesn't really matter, because the ASP will still keep its point of view, if you stay or not. There is simply no way that this project (as we know it) can work if we can't agree on historical events or even the current state of the sector.
To use your terms... In character, we can assume that the Nomin are correct. Out of character, there we can't assume that they are correct, because the whole history and setting of the Anargo sector would be invalid as a result.
|
|
|
Post by malika on Nov 8, 2004 15:52:36 GMT -5
Well...the truth is nothing more but an interpretation...history is written by the victors....Imperial history is very one-sided...they are probably not telling the whole truth...perhaps that could be another thing of the Nomin...they know different aspect of this "truth" or think to know that...
*is getting flashbacks from the philosophy exam*
|
|