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Post by Pudding on Nov 4, 2004 10:38:05 GMT -5
Have GW ever made a reference to an ‘internet’ in regard to 40K? let me take one out of Kage's book: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. but whatever; the glory of leaving some things unanswered is we can both have our way and not cause any unnecessary conflict.
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Post by Philip on Nov 4, 2004 10:42:37 GMT -5
let me take one out of Kage's book: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. but whatever; the glory of leaving some things unanswered is we can both have our way and not cause any unnecessary conflict. There isn’t ‘absence of evidence’ in this case, when ever there is an opportunity plot wise for a character to ‘use the net’ they don’t – they do something else in stead.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 4, 2004 22:21:56 GMT -5
what characters? characters in BL novels? give me something to work with.
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Post by Philip on Nov 6, 2004 10:40:16 GMT -5
The last book I read was ‘Grey Knights’ by Ben Counter. In ‘Grey Knights’ the Grey Knights do a lot of investigating on several worlds, and all information on these Imperial controlled worlds are held in vast Libraries - in book and scroll format (the Librarians find their way about due to ‘enhancements’ and seem to fulfil the role of catalogue/ index). There are no archives held on a Computer in a database. Technology that was present that could be used a ‘internet’ stuff isn’t: ‘data-slabs’ akin to a (powerful) PDA, ‘Vox’ communicators similar to a multi-way mobile phone, and ‘Cogitators’ which seem to be similar to a modern PC, which are used to collect reports from planets (PDAs), but immediately print or rather ‘write’ onto scrolls everything rather than saving to a file (much like a fax machine). In a book all about information and investigation in 40K by the most powerful of all Space Marine chapter backed up be the Inquisition: the internet never came up once, or anything faintly resembling the ‘internet’.
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Post by malika on Nov 6, 2004 11:35:18 GMT -5
These guys sound like some sort of terrorist organisation, that could give it a more interesting twist. They have an idea (which might be right or wrong...very debatable), and want to spread their message to other humans in the Imperium so that they would rebel. I could see these Nomin as a devided organisation, with extreme radicals and less radicals. The less radicals just trying to spread their word through propaganda, maybe trying taking out highly placed Imperial individuals (commanders, inquisitors, etc). While the more extremists would spread their message through blood, placing bombs in populated areas, not really caring about spreading their word, jsut trying to destroy those who oppose their ideological thinking. Interplanetary terrorism!!!
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Post by Destecado on Nov 6, 2004 12:49:13 GMT -5
Moderator Message to everyong involved in this (or any) thread
Please don't think that your ideas and contributions are not welcome, because they are. That said, you also need to recognize that your views may not always be shared by the rest of the posting members of the site. We all run into this at one time or another.
This should not be seen as an obstacle, but as an opportunity to engage others and win them over to your views...not take your ball and go home. In the ASP, compromise and discussion are the key.
Pudding, please don't take this personally, since I myself have been guilty of it as well (from time to time), but you are being as dogmatic and hidebound (with regard to the Nomin) as you have accused CELS of being (with regard to the ASP fluff as a whole).
While I agree that there is not one single truth or manner in which to interpret the fluff, I do know that for the ASP to work, the underlying systems and fluff structure must choose one of these paths as its central view point (ex. warp drives work in this way). If we do not, there will be no way of pulling all of the myriad pieces together into a cohesive whole and the ASP will remain nothing more than a collection of nice discussions on how to interpret various pieces of the fluff.
We now return you to your regular thread postings...
I would like to clear up some misconceptions that may exist with regards to the internet. The internet as we know it today would not exist if it had not been for the "alleged" Microsoft monopoly and its operating system. Many of you may be too young to rememebr when different computers had difficulty "talking" to each other, because their operating systems or other software were not compatible.
In my day job, we have begun to see this problem start to re-emerge with the roll out of new browsers such as Safari for Mac computers. Our site does not support it so customers attempting to access the site experience a host of problem. Couple this with customers that are still using Windows 98 or earlier and the problem multiply.
All of these probelms arise on just one planet in a span of less than 30 years. Now multiply this by the number of worlds in the Imperium and the number of years...you will begin to see the futility of having one cohesive "internet".
We must also take nto account the difference in tech levels from planet to planet. The machines on a high tech level world probably wouldn't be able to talk to a computer from one of lower technology...computers of today have trouble integrating with computers that are less than 10 years old.
Another point that was brought up, but which I want to expand upon is the idea of access to information. The Imperium is all about control. You can look at almost any totalitarian state to find parallels. The idea is to only give the populace the information you want out there and restrict access to all other information sorces.
Control of information is one key to control of your people. The most recent example of this is Iraq. Like other contries before him (the U.S.S.R., North Korea to name a few). Saddam Hussien controlled (or at least attempted to control) all media outlets in his country.
Almost right up to the point where U.S. tanks were rolling into Baghdad, his mouth pieces were telling the populace that they were winning the war. Those Iraquies that had access to satellite television or strong enough radios were ble to get a different picture by tuning into international broadcasts.
As similar thing is happening in Iran as well. The theocratic state has out sever restrictions on news and other information from outside sources in an attempt to retain control over their people. They have run into problems in the past decade as access to satellite televion and computers (and the internet) has flourished among the younger generations of Iranians.
The world that they see on t.v. and online is far different than what has been taught to them n schools. It has lead to large protests and calls for reform towards democracy. Just think what kind of turmoil could be stired up in the Imperium if the average citizen was allowed free access to information.
The Imperium may use the stamp of preventing a corruptive influence on the populace, but is it chaos corruption that they are concerned with or a social uprising?
One thing that I notice when first reading the background fluff for the Nomin is how much they sounded like the "Lone Gunmen" from the X-files. They are trying to get the truth out there in every way possible to anyone who will listen. You may want to exploit this angle further.
There could be those among the Inquisition (Radiacal Inquisitors) or disillusioned Adeptus Mechanicus who might feed them information. One font of nformation that I think you have missed in the discussion so far is information gleened from contact with the Alpha Legion. They would probably not contact them directly, but perhaps through one or several of their various cult members in different guises. Of course the information that they provide with have a biased slant against the Imperium, but based on the way you have described the Nomin, it would be like preaching to the choir ( to rant and rave to those who already share your view point).
Please don't take this to mean that I think that the Alpha Legion will try to take them over. The Nomin know just enough to be dangerous. If the Alpha Legion were to get involved with the Nomin too much it could risk their own organizations. The Nomin are just too vocal. Still they serve well as a blind for Alpha Legion operations and as a great resource for undermining the Imperium.
Malika's most recent post about scisms or splinter factions existing within the Nomin is a great idea. There are probably those who wish to fight only a war of words and ideas, while others exist that are more than willing to take up arms for their beliefs. Maybe they obtain arms through the Alpha Legion or its affiliated cults.
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Post by malika on Nov 6, 2004 13:44:00 GMT -5
Perhaps linking them with the Alpha Legion might be an idea too...but let that be for the most radical factions. They would join the Alpha Legion with the idea of "lesser of two evils" and "the enemy of my foe is my friend".
Perhaps they are also unwillingly being corrupted by these Chaos Space Marines
Perhaps the ones who have "joined" the Alpha Legion would be cast out of the original Nomin group, and then even that outcast group would be divided...some of them would try to seek forgiveness and fight against the Alpha Legion while others would try to embrace Chaos.
I think that these Nomin could have a nice place on Quechit...there would be a few cells of the hiding in the jungles. So there is some constant small scale war between the Nomin and the Imperial forces in the jungles. Perhaps these Nomin try to finance themselves through drug smuggling from Quechit. Sort of drugs in exchange for weapons.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 6, 2004 18:51:46 GMT -5
Hiding , how could they be hiding you nutter, quechit's landmass is tiny, with a massive population and a maintained and managed jungle, which according to you has been cut back to make way for new housing, what are they bloody invisible, dude you are crazy,hahaha ;D Hiding
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Post by Pudding on Nov 6, 2004 19:05:31 GMT -5
re: the moderator message, let me quote:
having to accept, as a prerequisite to joining Anargo, that one of the basic tenets, if not the single most basic tenet, of my little faction is false may not be 'not welcome' but it is very exclusive, to repeat that word over and over. i'm not trying to make anyone beleive my version, i've stated it several times that this is just my take on it, but unless i'm misreading CELS's post, i have to accept that my ideas are wrong to take part here. i've read that post several times and i get the same impression every time.
if it's okay to leave the facts in question as 'some say this, some say that' then i'd like to continue here. however, that's not the message that i'm getting.
re: the internet, i'm not saying there's a galaxy wide information net, nor that every planet has to be wired, but the idea of no network communication beggars belief. i, personally, don't ascribe much credence to BL stuff, since, like so much fiction around GW and wargames/RPG's in general, the Rule of Cool tends to trump good sense and consistency. and i don't know what they were researching, but i take the Pratchett view of magic: you don't want that stuff replicating, and uploading a daemonic or sorcerous symbol onto a computer, where it could be sent to other computers, would be more than stupidly hazardous. thus, those kinds of things would be kept to books etc.
etc: i just think that another 20000 years of technology will bring us to the point where 'networks,' in whatever form they evolve, will have been so integrated into daily life that you wouldn't even recognize it being there. who here takes notice of all the wheels in their life?
also, you guys have a really limited notion of control, and i speak as a political scientist. history has taught us that the harder a government grips on its people the more of them slip between its fingers. contrast the USSR, a command economy with only mariginal notions of free speech (free to praise the party!) with the US, which has never even been threatened by a revolution, unlike most European countries. how'd they do it? by exercising a different kind of control.
yes, the Imperium is stupid, and brutal, and solves things by hitting it multiple times, but not even the thickest Imperial Governor would fail to recognize the power of Bread and Circus. keep the people distracted, keep them watching Kill the Mutant, the 41st millenia's version of bull fighting, or another dramatization of the Arbiters, the 41st millenia's version of Cops, and you'll keep them down. fascism, and that's what the Imperium is, needs to use the media to create these scapegoats so the people unite against the scapegoats, not the government.
so in short: control is no good reason to ban the information networks. now you'd have to watch what goes on it, and i can think of some interesting stories that emerge from certain symbols getting sent out to people's digital pads, but then you have to watch what goes up on the walls too, and what people say, but the Imperium isn't banning those things.
and, forgot to answer this earlier: flamers are indiscriminate weapons, as are grenades, landmines etc. the Nomin beleive in the application of the absolute minimum force necessary, which means precisions, not destruction. i don't see how this isn't credible, since there's clearly a difference between a gun, which can be targetted at a single person, and a flame thrower or grenade, which by their very definition are area effect weapons.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 6, 2004 19:25:48 GMT -5
To be honest I don't see the problem, the Nomin and the Imperium seems to echo very closly the ASP and pudding, it doesn't matter who'e right, both have points of veiw that do not diverge from 40k, so pudding and the nomin believe such and such and the Imperium believe such and such, there is no reason why both can't be accepted. We on the ASP say Russ was born on whenever and the nomin say different....so what, isn't that the point they are not supposed to agree, the Nomin hate the Imperium so obviously what they say is going to be different from the Imperium say. Just like chaos would have a different version of events if its spokesperson wasn't GW. And all we have is GW point of view, can GW really be expected to speak for the galaxy and everyone in it. Puddings version of events is as valid as any, he's not trying to re-write the official history of 40k only put his own spin, on his own part of it The devils advocate has spoken, now lets all move on without the hostility ok. And i'd also like to second descatado and what he said as it probably made more sense than what I said Yes I am saying evryone is right. No arguments here I think your being overgenerous in your assesment of imperial governors, these are not great men like the ancient roman emperors, the vast majority seem to be little better than spineless turds, of course thta only my personal opinion True, but its also the case that I have never, ever seen any mention of an internet type of structure any where ever in any GW publication ever, not just in BL but any where. The Imperium does not allow that sort of thing to go on, yes you may get it on some worlds but the only thing you would find, like descatado says, is information pertinent to that world, and even that would probably be censored by the Imperium Now, pudding what are you thoughts on the Alpha legion. Also how precise are their terrorist attacks, are you saying they never injure civilians, or that they just feel bad about it if they do.
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Post by Philip on Nov 6, 2004 20:32:26 GMT -5
etc: i just think that another 20000 years of technology will bring us to the point where 'networks,' in whatever form they evolve, will have been so integrated into daily life that you wouldn't even recognize it being there. who here takes notice of all the wheels in their life. 20,000 years is a long time, and many lessons learned. I’m sure during or before the Golden Age of Technology humanity was well versed in cyber war, communication networks if relied upon are a weak point; land lines can be tapped, transmission intercepted. I think that during this time the corporations maintained control through information warfare (and another reason for humanity’s fall). The Imperium has a very low opinion of technology based information/ entertainment networks/ systems; they see them as a weakness that breeds weakness not a strength that breeds power. More importantly the Adeptus Mechanicus is very good with technology, and their abilities and systems would go through any world’s network security (if they existed in the first place) like a hot knife through butter. Not only would a world’s governor not like this, but the Ad Mec would realise that is they can do it so could others too. Also an ‘internet’ would allow Chaos the run free, I’m sure Tzeentch (the sum of all human knowledge) could write one hell of a computer virus and pass it to one of its followers. The internet was made for Tzeentch, and would be an ‘open door’ one Tzeentch inspired Hacker and the system would be at the mercy of Chaos – not too much of a problem if the ‘net’ is only used as a (personal) secondary mail system as it could be shut down (before all the Tzeentch altered mail got out of hand) but a serious problem is if the worlds economy is heavily influenced by it or runs through the net. On our world internet banking is great, but in 40K Tzeentch followers would nick all your money and buy weapons, ships and power. No encryption is powerful enough to stop Tzeentch, or a Lord of Change for that matter (links into the fall again, humanity really wasn’t ready for Chaos, they relied on technology far too much). The Imperium seems to prefer to train automotive responses into it citizens, each individual doesn’t need to understand everything; they just need to do their bit. Rome ran quite a large Empire back in the day without the internet so people can run their own affairs without a ‘net’ and quite complex ones too, but unlike Rome an Imperial world has the Imperium to keep an eye on it (just in case they get confused). As for control systems; not all countries are the same, I think China is a very state controlled country, but I have a feeling they will give even America a run for it money in the long run both economically and politically and doesn’t seem to be ‘failing’ in fact it seems to be doing rather well.
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Post by malika on Nov 7, 2004 7:17:21 GMT -5
Hiding , how could they be hiding you nutter, quechit's landmass is tiny, with a massive population and a maintained and managed jungle, which according to you has been cut back to make way for new housing, what are they bloody invisible, dude you are crazy,hahaha ;D Hiding There are still jungles which are used to get natural resources, not everything has been cut down.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 7, 2004 7:21:51 GMT -5
I know that, what i'm saying is there isn't that much of it to begin with
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Post by malika on Nov 7, 2004 9:33:20 GMT -5
fair enough...perhaps they would be hiding in the cities then, or on the seas where there is little control
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Post by Dazo on Nov 7, 2004 9:39:16 GMT -5
Well you haven't done the extended sytem generation for quechit yet, they could be on one of the other planets in the system or on the orbital cities if you have any, they would not have to be on quechit itself
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