|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 14:08:31 GMT -5
Okay, the 'fluff' describes the 'warp zone' as being the point at which 'warp density' falls off sufficiently to allow the warp drives to be engaged. I'm afraid that I cannot find the appropriate quote online at the moment and am thus left with Critical Hit, which doesn't quite do it... (And the few WDs I own are back at home... <sigh> )
Anyway, the implication was that it was at the 'edge of the system' which, self-evidently from real life as well as looking at the values in the Guide, are hundreds of AU away from the central star. This means that most Imperium ships, based upon a reasonable extrapolation of their abilities (this is still up for discussion, of course) really should take years to get to the biosphere of the system.
Now, with the new 'fluff' this is a tad on the long side. Poeple need to get their armies into battle and they need them now, physics be damned! Thus we are left with the option of taking a consistent stance to the warp zone.
Does anyone have any suggestions on this?
The 'fluff' indicates that the warp is reactive to gravity, i.e. areas of high gravity also experience warp distortion. This is really not that surprising and mirrors many of the assumption being made in the ASP. And at this point we could look to RPG...?
Once again since it's being used for other things, perhaps looking to Traveller might be useful? That game system says that "100 diameters" (i.e. 100 times the diameter of the planet you want to jump to) is the minimum distance at which safe engagement of the jump drives is possible. That includes the central star and, as such, if a world is within the 100D limit of the star then you cannot jump to it regardless of the size of its own 100D zone.
(Out of interest, Traveller also has a 10D limit at which you can jump but you increase the chances of misjump.)
Now, I'm not advocating that we merely accept this figure. Rather, I just thought that it would be useful to suggest something rather than the normal "What do you think?" and letting it mire for some time.
I do, however, think that the 100D limit is a tad too 'small' for the 40k universe. Furthermore, it is defined purely by the mass of the stellar object in question. But what about the 'psychic mass' of a world? What would that do? Would a hiveworld have a warp zone that is further away? Or closer?
Etc.
Taking a consistent and defined stance on this would be extremely useful for the project.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jul 7, 2004 20:10:48 GMT -5
The jump zone in many respects is not just a hinderance for the Imperium.
Ships navigate through the warp to beacons at the jump point allowing them to enter realspace, at least in populated systems. I would argue that they are mainly areas of convenience, located some distance from a planet due to safety reasons...
...If anything goes wrong with a jump a warp rift doesn't open right next to the planet. It also gives time for invaders to be detected when they reach a jump point, since the jump point is a distance from the planet, they can be intercepted etc. Locating the point out of system also reduces the risk of collision after you leave the warp.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 7, 2004 23:48:50 GMT -5
Does that not, surely, confirm the requirement that a definite stance be taken on this topic? That we do not make the mistake of not defining such an important concept and leaving it to narrative convenience or the "Rule of Cool"? If we are to have an invasion fleet entering a given system, surely it would be helpful to know just how far away they will precipitate into the system and, therefore, just how long it will take the various parts of that fleet to reach their target?
Indeed, one could see how the narrative of the ASP could react to this in both the RPG and wargame sense of things. Perhaps as part of a campaign, we start with an RPG in which players come across specific information suggesting that the invasion is going to take place. They then must 'fight for their lives' across a planet, taking to space where they are hounded by the enemies (of whatever) until, battered and bruised, they manage to get to the warp zone and travel to their home star system. Ahead of the enemies, for some reason, they detect the warp wake of faster scout vessels. Now it becomes a race of time to see whether they will get 'home' before the enemies can bring them into their 'crosshairs'... If they get back then the world has that much more time to mobilise their defences (i.e. they have more deployment options), and so on...
Okay, a bit hokey but the point, I feel, still stands.
|
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jul 9, 2004 8:22:43 GMT -5
Kage, based on our discussion of the warp and warp currents. A minmum distance seem not only advisable to avoid accidents, but absolutely necessary for the proper funtioning of the Warp Engines.
Let us go on the basic assumption that the way the Warp Engines work is by creating an artificial singularity in order to pop out of our reality and into the warp. The depression or curvature created by a star's or planet's gravity well may throw off this proceess.
It could be that the curvature of space near a gravity well would skew the calculations or the the warp is thicker due to the depression created by the gravity. Trying to punch through inside a gravity well might overtax the warp engines.
Gravity wells are not the only effect that needs to be taken into account. As you have mentioned, population also need to be considered. Since the warp is also psycho reactive, dense populations might cause peaks or other depressions. Perhaps the minimum safe distance from a planet is based of the population figure for the world.
This would mean that ships would be able to jump in closer to worlds that a uninhabited or with sparse population. The distance would grow with the population. Another thing that would fall into the calculation is the mass of the ship.
The smaller the mass of the ship, the smaller the distance it would need to be from the sun or populated world in order to jump. Massive ships or fleets would have to jump into a system further out due to the size of singularity that must be generated to let them pass from real space into the warp or vice versa.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 9, 2004 12:02:31 GMT -5
Interesting point about figuring in the mass of the ship... That potentially gives us three variables to work with: mass of planetary body, mass of 'ship' and the 'psychic presence', the latter of which is reactive to local warp conditions. Oh the temptation to modify that 'ole F = Gm 1m 2/r 2 equation somehow. The 'm' would refer to the 'planetary body' and the 'ship', while 'r' would be the psychic constant and G the modifier based on warp conditions... or some such...  Actually, that's not entirely a terrible idea... though potentially unworkable. |
|
|
|
Post by Sojourner on Jul 17, 2004 5:21:02 GMT -5
I think the idea behind exiting the system is generally that you don't want your planets pulled into the warp rift with you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 17, 2004 11:47:52 GMT -5
Except that 'natural warp gateways' do - or did - exist in the 'fluff', points at which precipitation into the matterium/warp could occur within the Warp Zone...
|
|
|
|
Post by Tynesh on Jul 18, 2004 7:02:27 GMT -5
Indeed warp rifts at least of small scale could be 'common' place in the sector, particulary where warp entry/exit is heavy. Such a high % of traffic moving across the warp/reality membrane could well reduce the threshold and tolerance allowing warp to enter reality and vice versa. The same could occur at sights of past battles if a ship's warp engines have gone BOOM BOOM! There is also the point that space is very big. Warp travel isn't that accurate even with Navigators and jump beacons. It is reasonable to assume that ships never exit at a single point all the time. A warp jump to a star system will be made in the 'warp' direction of the star, and therefore you may end up at any point in the solar syatem. Dropping from warp far from the star means there is less chance of ending up in the wrong place and inside a planet or right in front of a big asteroid field! Of course risky warp jumps to within a few million miles of a planet etc have been documented but are obviously extremely risky and therefore unlikely to be undertaken by those who cannot afford mistakes. Orks dropped hulks into orbit of Armageddon, but then they were intent on getting their quickly and having a fight!  |
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 18, 2004 7:17:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure i agree with that assesment, you seem to be infering that the warp is featurless, perhaps in the early days of warp travel you would have had this problem, but navigators have been around for a long time they must train for this sort of thing.
And navigators are well versed in the ebb and flow of the warp and the effects that a massive gravity field has on it, so that unless somthing went badly wrong the chances of dropping into real space right next to a planet or star would be remote.
|
|
|
|
Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 26, 2004 9:35:16 GMT -5
Does a ship retain its velocity across a warp jump/shift/translation/whatever-you-call-it? This would be another reason why you couldn't warp in too close to your destination, unless you decelerated before your initial entry into the warp. Of course, this concern depends on the max accel/decel of a ship, not to mention how far out system the warp zone lies. I mention this as a possible factor - setting warp entry routes/points far enough out and situated where ships have deceleration corridors that won't send them into a planet or moon or asteroid belt or oort cloud.
However, I would say that you lose most but not all your velocity when you warp in/out. If you lost all your velocity, space hulks and the like would just sit motionless on arrival. While ominous, it doesn't strike fear into the heart of the system's people like it should. A space hulk should come lumbering in like the unstoppable instrument of death it is. On the other hand, if you lost none or very little of your velocity, you could fairly easily make planetary bombardment cruise missiles using small suicide ships that operate at nearly light speed. Since these aren't a feature of the game and shouldn't be, I'd say you drop most of your velocity on entering or leaving the warp.
|
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jul 26, 2004 10:05:18 GMT -5
That is actually a brilliant point. From what I remember, space hulks actually enter systems with considerable speed, making them dangerous indeed... but then again... you might argue that space hulks don't always exit the warp at safe distances... erf...
Basically, the speed of space hulks is open for interpretation and probably highly variable. And whilst I do see ships coming out of the warp with a certain speed, I don't think it will be anything that even approaches light-speed. Then again, little is known about the workings of warp travel, since it's such a mystical thing. But I never imagined it happening by travelling in light speed through the warp.
|
|
|
|
Post by BrotherAnimosus on Jul 26, 2004 10:44:53 GMT -5
I think of traveling through the Warp as if the ships are "sailing" through it. They catch the eddies and currents of the Warp caused by the gravity/psycic shadows. But unless they have a navigator, its like trying to steer a sailing vessel at night with no lights or charts and the shadows in the Warp are shoals. The beacons are literaly lighthouses as they illuminate the surrounding area and help the navigators see the currets of the Warp and help them reach their destination. Like marker bueys for modern day sailing vessels telling the depth of the water ect.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 26, 2004 11:44:45 GMT -5
And this being just the 'demon ground' of Dark Conspiracy... (E.g. the point at which dimensional activity was regularly practised, making such access easier.)
That would not be consistent with the 'fluff', though. It would seem that you roughly travel in a linear fashion and precipitate at a given point at the Warp Zone. Randomness might be a nod of the head to Heisenberg, but generally speaking you know roughly where someone is going to precipitate if you know where they start off...
I would say that it's velocity is meaningless in the warp but, for simplicity, it is maintained after the precipitation. Momentum is conserved, in other words.
And, of course, does anyone actually have a concrete suggestion for defining the Warp Zone?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Jul 26, 2004 14:19:19 GMT -5
It comes out as fast as it went in, yes? I think to answer that you actually havre to define the nature of this universe first and how it came to be before you can postulate a theory on the workings of another universe and how you would interact with it Lets suppose in the begining there was the warp, a realm of pure energy and also a realm of gravity these two collided and you got real space, matter-dead energy if you like. The warp zone would be the point at which one counterbalanced the other the fulcrum of reality the point at which there exsists the possibility of either universe the warp drive allows you to choose which.  Thats it, reality is caught between the two, gravity and warp, the laws of this universe limit the speed at which you can travel. But if you harness either of the other two universes you can ignore the rules and travel faster than light  The above statement was exaustion induced only, no illegal substance was employed. And it is based on the workings of a fictional universe not this one so no having a go at my bad grasp of physics, in fact don't have a go at me at all i'm clearly not well |
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 1:20:36 GMT -5
It comes out as fast as it went in, yes? Erm, yes. That's what I said... I think to answer that you actually havre to define the nature of this universe first and how it came to be before you can postulate a theory on the workings of another universe and how you would interact with it... I can see what you're getting at, but don't entirely agree. From the above we could quite simply see that the 'fluff' suggests a link between precipitation and gravity. We also know that sentient life has an impact upon the warp and, therefore, a Warp zone 'formula' which takes into account these two features for defining its size would be a reasonble solution to the problem. With that said, your theory mirrors my approach to warp transition! |
|
