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Post by Destecado on Sept 24, 2004 17:02:44 GMT -5
Apologies for the confusion with regards to the quotation system... Multi-tasking has its problems, as does replying to multiple posts at once. Out of interest, why did you feel the need to quote yourself? I added the quotes of my original posts in order to put my responses into context. Sometimes I find myself losing track of the original thread of the conversation when reading the response without the original comments it was associated with. I was trying something new to see if it made the flow of the specific points addressed any easier to follow...not much different than without the I guess. My bad, I was making a generic statement on intent not in specific interpretation. It's just that you brought up the specific phrase that was of use in doing this... You will note that I say that your science fits with pseudo-science previously described and, also, 'magical' theory. Bit of hand-waving, yes, but was kind of moving in the same direction as you... Or you as me but for different reasons... or whatever. Not everything is an attack that needs to be defended! I apologize as well. I wasn't angry and did not consider it an attack. I know I sometimes come off sounding defensive...what can I say, its just one of those little character quirks. Given the warp zone is normally attached to a feature relating to the 'system' - energy/mass, population, whatever - then how is the population/whatever of a ship going to significantly contribute to this? Are you are refering to the population of a planet increasing the warp zone? The reason that I see population playing a role in the distance of the warp zone is due to the increase in fluctuating electromagnetic fields that would further increase the density of the barrier between our reality and the warp (the zero point filed). Nerve impulses are like little electric charges that travel from one neuron to the next. The firing of these electrical impulses fluctuates. It therefore generates its own electromagnetic field. Eastern cultures would equate this personal energy field with the chi. Chi masters are able to do extrodianry things by manipulating their own personal energy field. This field also is how we interact with the warp. We have already addressed the fact that dreams, emotions and even physical changes of "humans" (any sentient race) have an influnce or create echoes in the warp. The electromagnetic waves emitted by each person's electromagnetic field are the means by which this information is carried into the warp. The great the number of electromagnetic fields, the greater the density of the zero point field. Worlds with high populations, such as hives, should therefore have a larger warp zone. If not a larger over all warp zone, then perhaps a change in the density as you approach the system. I don't view the warp zone as being a specific boundary that all ships must pass in order to jump safely. The boundary instead is directly proportional or a factor of the ship's size. The warp Zone for a ship as small as a warp scout should be closer in towards the system than for say a Emperor Class battle ship. It is not so much relative masses, but the size of the field that must be generated to allow the ship to jump through to the warp (or jump into real space from the warp). Example: The force needed to push a screwdriver through a piece of wall panel would be much less than that needed to put your entire fist through it. Being able to jump closer to a system is an advantage for the small ships used by pirates and raiders. This also allows them to jump out closer to the planets when they are being chased. Using this variable warp zone model, I see the population of a planet acting as a modifier to distance. Let us assume two systems with the exact same size and number of planets and with the same type of star. Now let us assume that one system has a high population (900,000,000 people) while the other is uninhabited. Would their warp zone be the same? I would say no. The system with a high population would have a larger warp zone than the system that was uninhabited. This increase is caused by all the additional electromagnetic fields present. The safe warp zone for each size of ship would be pushed further out away from the system. We could have a graduated scale where for every increase in population (perhaps every 10,000,000 people) the warp zone for a given size of ship increase a certan amount of distance. Any thoughts? As before, I have always been rather unfond of the idea of a Geller Field as a "reality stabiliser". I see little overt purpose for it and every reason that it should be ignored as thus. Of course, it doesn't significantly affect the price of bacon so I leave it... I'm not terribly fond of the concept either, but I did have an interesting thought about the "real" function of the Geller Field. The geller field provides an artificial "bubble" around the ship, that is suppose to keep it safe from warp emanations. Perhaps it is to keep the ship safe from warp eminations created by the crew of the vessel. With the barrier of the zero point field removed, the electromagnetic waves generated by each individual on the ship now transmit directly nto the warp. What they think becomes reality. I have images of crews not protected by a Geller Field meeting a fate like the crew of the Event Horizon from the movie of the same name. Navigators perhaps have the necessary ability to control their mental emissions, but your average human is not that disciplined. I think I remember reading somewhere (I'm not sure if it was 40k fluff or not) that one of the reasons that the eldar (I know it had something to do with eldar or elves) feel uncomfortable around humans is that mentally they are broadcasting their every thought and feeling. This background noise to the psychically sensative eldar can be defening.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 25, 2004 18:14:47 GMT -5
Are you are refering to the population of a planet increasing the warp zone? It has been previously suggested when I was trying to get people to think consistently about the size of the warp zone and the resultant ramifications (tactical, economic, etc.). Little has come of that thread, though, so it might have to be a "thus sayeth the law" moment. <sigh> The reason that I see population playing a role in the distance of the warp zone... For me it would merely be more minds = 'stable reality' over a 'wider volume', not a result of what those minds manifest into 'reality'. Of course, that's fairly redundant since both explanations work. The electromagnetic waves emitted by each person's electromagnetic field are the means by which this information is carried into the warp. This would be carry-over into the 'shallowest' parts of the warp... Kirilian auras, blah blah. Basically, your plain 'ole etheric. Worlds with high populations, such as hives, should therefore have a larger warp zone. Yep, although only if they are not 'corrupted'... I don't view the warp zone as being a specific boundary that all ships must pass in order to jump safely. The boundary instead is directly proportional or a factor of the ship's size. Again, what difference is a ship massing whatever, or crewed by however many, significantly affect the warp zone...? It does, however, create an interesting mechanic. It is not so much relative masses, but the size of the field that must be generated to allow the ship to jump through to the warp... Well, that kind of answers the question. Is it really going to be that significant a distance? Indeed, the implication is that it would be best to create lots of smaller, 'high energy' combat ships than utilise the massive power houses of the Imperium. (or jump into real space from the warp). Let us assume two systems with the exact same size and number of planets and with the same type of star. We're getting into complex models, I see... Would their warp zone be the same? Nope... the high population one would have a warp zone that was much further away from the central star than the low population one. This increase is caused by all the additional electromagnetic fields present. Or whatever 'mechanic' you wish to attribute to it. We could have a graduated scale where for every increase in population (perhaps every 10,000,000 people) the warp zone for a given size of ship increase a certan amount of distance. Any thoughts? We need to keep the mechanic as simple as possible and which allows inference about the warp zone to be made from the UWP as much as possible... What they think becomes reality. An interesting idea, but it is essentially an inverse of the current idea of what the 'actual' Geller Field does. At the 'depths' that most ships are going to be travelling at you're not going to have too much of a problem... ... Hmmn, although you have the interesting analogy of the 'Bends' in appliation to the 'depth' of the travellers. Methinks that I'm going to have to be sold on this one. My initial reaction seems to be 'naaah'. Chalk up the 'reality stabiliser' function as just GW hokem.
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MvS
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Posts: 22
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Post by MvS on Sept 27, 2004 5:58:39 GMT -5
Potential Reality --> Immaterium --> Matterium = Realms of Chaos --> Warp --> Matterium = Deep Umbra --> Near Umbra --> Consensual Reality Although... I would see 'Realm of Chaos' as where gods and daemons play around, and therefore the same as what you and so many others call 'the Warp' (as opposed to just warp, which is the term I've bent around to equate to unrealised potential). Of course, I'm just being fussy over phrasiology (I don't necessarily equate Chaos with Potential), and so your observation above pretty much stands as is. ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 27, 2004 7:02:25 GMT -5
Although... I would see 'Realm of Chaos' as where gods and daemons play around... This I would agree with... the sea of formlessness out of which form, no matter how transitory, arises. I presume that someone like yourself would be familiar with Zelazny's Amber books? For me the 'deep warp' is very much like "Chaos", with the fragmentary Shadow upon which Dworkin inscribed the Great Pattern of Amber being, in some regards, equivalent to the matterium. (Except the 'Great Pattern' is pre-determined by consensual subconsciousness/consciousness... Can you have consensual subconsciousness now that I think about it!? ) and therefore the same as what you and so many others call 'the Warp'... Hmmn... directed at me and others, but I'll take the "you" to be a more generic you aimed at an audience other than yourself and those that share your concepts... As far as I can tell, GW is moving towards an image - and it is important to note that the image is not specifically the 'reality', only that which they wish to present given the 'modes' (characters, etc.) of representation - whereby the 'warp' is a generic catch-all term without division except that which is narratively desirable. Ultimately it is a place which is made of 'daemons', not strictly 'daemon stuff' which is a division that some might not even recognise. That's not an image that I particularly like and, indeed, have never liked. Rather I personally borrowed from (broad) occult ideas and divided up the warp into something which, subsequently, happened to mirror the MtA system fairly well. So what do I - the specific 'you' above - view the warp as? Yes, you are right in that I see it as 'divided', but it is also part of the same schema that likewise creates the matterium. Kinda. (as opposed to just warp, which is the term I've bent around to equate to unrealised potential). Of course, I'm just being fussy over phrasiology (I don't necessarily equate Chaos with Potential), and so your observation above pretty much stands as is. ;D To be fair, the "Realms of Chaos" becomes just one aspect of the Deeper Warp, as it were.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Dec 25, 2004 6:44:02 GMT -5
I hope I'm not threadnomancing here...... EDIT: Yup. Apologies. Destacado, this concept of the population of the planet increasing the "safe warp zone". I understand, and like the idea, but have one question. If the "safe zone" radius is affected by the resident population, does it also radiate outwards from the planet or is it just a "total" number that adds to the safe distance of the star? What i'm rambling about is, would the orbital path of a planet with a very high population affect the "shape" of this warp field? It would be like a circle radiating from the central star, and another circle around the planet overlapping it. Depending on where the planet was, its circle could extend beyond the ring of the star and "bulge". This might mean that certain times of the year in a heavily populated system would see increases in smuggling/piracy, as a "dent" in the safe zone would let these captains in closer.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 27, 2004 19:10:24 GMT -5
For the sake of clarity, the idea that the population has an impact upon the 'warp zone' is not exclusively Destecado's. Rather it was thrown around in another thread by individuals such as Brusilov (when he was briefly here), myself and, as always, others.
In general terms, and for the sake of simplicity, it would probably be best to have it working from a 'central' point (i.e. the star) and radiating outwards. This would tend to imply a spherical field, but one must also remember that it does not take into account phenomenon outside of the 'system', as it were.
The warp zone? Yes, that would be entirely possible although one would have to remember that if it is going to affect the 'warp zone' to produce a situation that is other than normal it would also have to be one of the 'cold' planets.
This would also be best tied in with the concept of the 'stable (natural) warp gate', though whether people believe that these have a defined place in the *cough* modern 'fluff' is another question entirely...
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jan 1, 2005 8:07:53 GMT -5
I see. Next question. Could this effect (the "null zone") be artifically replicated? In the middle of re-writing the Atlanteans, I worked out a concept similar to that of the Interdictor Cruiser from Star Wars, that generates a "no hyperspa - er - warp travel zone" around itself. Since this thread is focusing on such a topic, I figured it'd be a better place to ask than my fossilizing alien discussion thread. Happy New Year, BTW.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2005 12:57:43 GMT -5
Technically speaking, since GW has linked the 'warp zone' to gravity there should be a number of circumstances where it is possible to monkey around with it. The concept of LaGrange points, for one, being areas at which it should be possible to precipitate into the warp from within the traditionally defined warp zone is one possibility. (The counter to this is that, for the most part, it is still within the 'mass shadow' or whatever.) Also, anti-grav systems might also be able to monkey around with things...
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jan 1, 2005 13:54:35 GMT -5
so, how would an artificial heavy-gravity generator be constructed? It seems like anything with enough apparent mass to generate the "warp zone" of a planet or VERY small star would instantly collapse under its own gravity, without something to counteract this. Lots of antigravity generators, perhaps?
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Post by Destecado on Jan 3, 2005 17:48:12 GMT -5
so, how would an artificial heavy-gravity generator be constructed? It seems like anything with enough apparent mass to generate the "warp zone" of a planet or VERY small star would instantly collapse under its own gravity, without something to counteract this. Lots of antigravity generators, perhaps? Let see if I understand what you are refering to...are you talking about creating an artificial warp zone in order to prevent a ship from warping into reality at a given location? In essence, you are talking of making warp inhibitors....or at least jump inhibitors. If that is the case, then it should not be too difficult. The manner in which I view the warp drive as working is by creating an artificial singularity (black hole) that allows a ship to transition from real space to the warp. I'm not sure if this would be beyond the technology of the Imperium or not, but the Atlanteans may have it. You probably do not even need to create a gravitational well or singularity. A strong enough magnetic field or any high energy field for that matter would probably cause some disturbance in the near warp and in interface (boundary between the warp and the matterium). The introduction of an ionized gas (plasma) into the magnetic field would increase the vibrational propogation (ossilation of the particles in the medium). It would almost be like creating an artificial nebula of hot gas to mask a certain are of space. It could probably be done without the plasma at the cost of much more energy into the equation.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jan 6, 2005 6:12:19 GMT -5
That's exactly what I'm looking for. Some sort of "Warp-inhibitor field", that prevents warp jumps into or out of the affected area as long as the "generator" is running. My current problem is figuring out a mechanism small enough to be mounted on/in a starship, but large enough or powerful enough to be more than an annoyance. Electromagnetic fields are an option, but with the new "Pseudo-telepathy" concept we worked out, it just might give the entire Atlantean fleet migraines instead of block warp travel.
You mentioned something about an artificial nebula. Would this have to be an actual nebula created, or is that merely imagery? Having a ship crusing around spouting nebula gas isn't the best idea either, mainly because of the time/resources involved in creating what would be a short-lived field, and the other problems inherent in fighting within a nebula.
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