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Post by Destecado on May 3, 2004 11:20:50 GMT -5
There has been much discussion in this forum about the nature and distribution of warp routes within the Anargo Sector and most typical Imperial Sectors. To define these routes, it becomes important to define the nature of the warp itself. What are your thoughts on the nature or composition of the warp?
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Post by CELS on May 4, 2004 10:08:55 GMT -5
Erm... that's a pretty big question, Destecado. That's like asking "What are your thoughts on the Imperium?" Is there perhaps some description that we can work off, like something from Kage's or someone else's website?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 4, 2004 12:29:35 GMT -5
I'd have to agree that it is a broad topic. You'll have to see my comments on "Bubble Theory" of the Warp in the other thread. While I like some aspects of it, ultimately I'm not overtly keen on it. Too reminsicent of CWC's "Reality Bubble" approach on Portent and I never liked that either... You all broadly know my approach, but remember that is an old one... Any model must now incorporate the "harmonious" warp... Mine didn't as of then but as I've shifted towards a magic=psyker approach that has partially changed... Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 4, 2004 12:44:03 GMT -5
I'm not familliar with the CWC's reality bubble idea. Could you possibly summarize it. Also if possible can you give me an idea of what aspects of the theory you do not like or that you disagree with. I'm still trying to formulate a cohesive concept. Most of the ideas for this theory have been presented in the warp routes thread, but I figured we could work out some of the broader concepts of the theory, so that the warp routes thread doesn't get too far off topic..
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Post by Kage2020 on May 5, 2004 15:52:59 GMT -5
CWC's 'reality bubble' idea was more to do with psykers, but shared much with the basic concept of your quantum/fractal warp which, again, I'm not entirely comfortable with. A tad too much science, though somewhat ironic for me to say that... As to the URL that I was requested to post: Remember that it is a somewhat older description and doesn't take into account some of the newer information on the 'warp', although I would imagine that doesn't radically change things. Kage
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 6:48:25 GMT -5
I'm going to bring this thread back since Phillip is talking about a non-ASP related idea with regards to warp topography, etc., and it is also something that we were originally trying to get into with this thread. So, does anyone have a cohesive approach to the warp (and please, no mention of differential time theory at the moment! )? - Topography - What is 'up', 'down' or whatever in the warp. How does this relate to such features as 'warp currents', the warp zone or the idea that 'warp travel' is not possible within a system? 1
- How does warp travel work if one keeps the above in mind. Consider both a Navigated and a calculated journey. (Remember that calculated jumps are more than likely a tad more common than some might argue and are actually the 'staple' for interstellar trade.)
- How does Chaos fit into this picture? It is important to note that the Warp is not indistinguishable from Chaos.
- What is the nature of warp/matterium relationship? It is obvious that features in the matterium can have an impact upon the warp and vice versa but what is the extent of this?
- To what extent is does consciousness impact upon the warp?
And probably a whole lot of questions. I'm after a vision of the warp... I've already got one of my own, but it would be good if everyone was working from the same basis and thus let us open it up for discussion...
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 7:36:26 GMT -5
No differential time theory! Hmmm. That's a bit tricky as I think much of it is related. - The warp (real chaos 'energy/matter/everything') flows around the warp universe. Everything is related to this 'flow', time, dimensions, energy and matter.
- In the warp 'up' and 'down' are thrown out of the window as it is relative to the warp flow. If the warp flow twists so everything twists with it, dimensions change (objects change shape and orientation), time twists/ changes speed, up becomes down and vice versa.
- The warp is 'Chaos' in pure form. I see it as the driving component in the 'real' universe, forcing matter to change (linked at a sub atomic level, causing 'vibrations', and explain 'uncertainty principles' in 40K). This influence of the warp on the real can be 'observed' and used to 'guess' what the warp is up to. In my mind, this is the basis of a calculated jump.
- The Chaos Gods are sentient lifeforms (souls) that through strength of will can use the warp and mould it in their own image. As it is a form constructed by will alone, it can change and shift in shape (Tzeentch really personifies this the most). Also the Gods can move as fast as they can think, so appear anywhere and then form a 'body' or presence.
- Human consciousness causes turbulence in the warp, making the warp flow 'chaotically', forming complex patterns as thoughts flow through the human's mind. It is these patterns, turbulence and compression that first forms the building blocks of the Chaos Gods: ie, it is the patterns themselves that the Gods are, so as long as humans or 'warp sig' creatures exist so do the Chaos Gods.
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 8:54:15 GMT -5
Jump: Quotes form this thread: Zero Point Field DiscussionI would agree that some 'chop' would be caused, though I wouldn't go as far as to make them un-traversable. Surely by that logic the area around Sol/Terra would be off limits by that logic? To warp travel yes, and the ideas I'm putting forward mean that travelling to the edge of the solar system to jump has less to do with gravity (through part, as large bodies of matter have some 'grip; like stones in the warp flow) and more to do with the number of people in the system. More people, more travel, more danger. Make STCS:CS look like a fabulous idea I'd go for a rut, or rather a form of wake. Just as a cyclist can 'slip stream' so can ships. This would mean busy routes stay open because of the amount of traffic. Each ship follows the 'hole' or low density warp left by the proceeding ships warp wake. Navigators can do this standing on their head, calculated jumps don't stand a chance.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 9:37:33 GMT -5
To warp travel yes, and the ideas I'm putting forward mean that travelling to the edge of the solar system to jump has less to do with gravity (through part, as large bodies of matter have some 'grip; like stones in the warp flow) and more to do with the number of people in the system. You will notice that this was indicated in the Warp Zone thread. The canonicity of the effect of 'gravity' on the Warp Zone is, however, unquestioned. More people, more travel, more danger. Make STCS:CS look like a fabulous idea LOL. I'm afraid that is one concept that I am never going to be sold on. I'd go for a rut, or rather a form of wake. I didn't want to say wake just in case you jumped on the word and pointed out the disruption that this causes... Heck, now we're getting into Star Trek technology again, i.e. the 5.5 warp limit! (Erm, that was a wild guess as to the warp limit!) Just as a cyclist can 'slip stream' so can ships. This was the original premise of 'warp convoys', a means of utilising the skills of a limited number of Navigators to maximise their use (though primarily for wealthy cartels). Navigators can do this standing on their head, calculated jumps don't stand a chance. Again... nope. We will not be reducing warp travel to Navigators only. Not only is it against the 'fluff' but I really find the universe created by such an interpretation to be ultimately pointless... I hesitate to use the word, but I'm going to: the universe becomes tedious.
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 9:53:22 GMT -5
You will notice that this was indicated in the Warp Zone thread. The canonicity of the effect of 'gravity' on the Warp Zone is, however, unquestioned. Glad to here it. Hives are in 40K, and my design actually 'works' (apart from madness etc.) Think its 9.9 or something... Still nothing like Star Trek. Sounds good. I'm not saying that we should go 'navigator only' but being a powerful monopoly with links to cartels the Navigator Houses would have the most commercial route sown up. So un-Navigator jump wouldn't be allowed for 'messing out the route' (see above). The fact that an un-Navigator jump would have serious problem and mess up the slipstream is a bonus (but wouldn't affect the jumps, as they aren't allowed in the first place). Navigators are a big part of 40K, only the shortest jump in the calmest flowing warp would be 'calculated'. Tedious? 40K is oppressive and tedious in the extreme with ten yards of red tape per jump, that's why every one is so mental! Frustration breeds violence.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 10:36:44 GMT -5
You'll be surprised to find that I stick with the 'fluff' as much as possible, only diverging when it is broken Hives are in 40K, and my design actually 'works' (apart from madness etc.) From what I've seen - will have to take the draft into work tomorrow - it does, for the most part, work. It's just flawed in terms of imagery in application to 40k and, like the very concept of hives themselves, is broken in terms of logical application. For me? I'll stick with the hives as described in the 'fluff' since they're a part of that 'fluff'. If I was to do anything I'd get rid of the hives themselves... But that's OffT. Think its 9.9 or something... I'm somewhat scared to know that you're wrong. Rather, while 9.9xxxx (it's the whole asymptotic gig with 10 going on there) might be the theoretical limit of 'warp speed' there was a practical limit on warp travel emplaced once it was realised that - somewhow - fast warp travel was causing 'damage'. Beyond that, I know nothing. Still nothing like Star Trek. God no. But it also isn't Event Horizion mixed with In the Mouth of Madness either. We will draw from the concepts of the 'Age of Sail' given the obvious overtones of that in the 'fluff' and work from there rather than reinventing improbable warp transportation without Navigators. Only problem is the 'wake' that you describe... that and some people believe it is impossible to electronically image within the warp to follow a ship. This is, of course, twoddle given the 'fluff' on the matter but still it is there. So un-Navigator jump wouldn't be allowed for 'messing out the route' (see above). The fact that an un-Navigator jump would have serious problem and mess up the slipstream is a bonus... Again, I'm not buying into it. The advantage of Navigators is the advantage that the Imperium has over 'everyone else' in a number of areas: speed. Rapid communications, both verbal and physical. It's amazing what that can do for you... I personally put a multiplier of something aorund 4 (heck, haven't even checked that out myself in some time) on basic transit times but I've been recently thinking of extending it... But there we go. Navigators are a big part of 40K, only the shortest jump in the calmest flowing warp would be 'calculated'. Any jump can be calculated... it's just your odds decrease dramatically depending on the distance (linking in to the stability of the warp and the ability to calculate that far ahead), the present conditions of the warp, etc. But that's why they're restricted to 'small jumps'... You minimise the risk. Tedious? 40K is oppressive and tedious in the extreme with ten yards of red tape per jump, that's why every one is so mental! Frustration breeds violence. I was actually referring to a universe in which navigated warp travel was, in essence, essential.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 24, 2004 11:33:42 GMT -5
Just so every one can sleep tonight the warp speed limit was set at warp 4 as speeds over 5 were found to be dangerous, so you were quite close with your first guess kage...and thats about as deep as i would like to get into this discussion Thank you for that, daz0. It would have been a tad better you had replied to the post as well but there we go...
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Post by Philip on Aug 24, 2004 12:12:30 GMT -5
You'll be surprised to find that I stick with the 'fluff' as much as possible, only diverging when it is broken I had noticed you take into account the fluff, that's why a value your opinion. OffT, look forward to hearing what you think. Any and all input is most welcome. Happy ripping I'm not advocating a complete shift to Event Horizon, go for 'age of sail' plus giant squids. So Navigator could do it standing on their head, whereas a calculated jump would have problems... deja vu? Navigators can do this standing on their head, calculated jumps don't stand a chance. Again, I'm not buying into it. The advantage of Navigators is the advantage that the Imperium has over 'everyone else' in a number of areas: speed. Rapid communications, both verbal and physical. It's amazing what that can do for you... I see what you are saying, but I think the advantage runs deeper. Just making it longer? Doesn't the warp flow at a certain rate on any given route? Calculated or Navigated, there going to be similar. That's why I came up with that formula... OK. As a personal preference I don't like the idea of 'navigator not needed'. This is because of my other concepts with regard to the Adeptus Machanicus and how the Imperium enforces control. I always thought, given the history humans have with Psykers and the age of strife that they would have a huge psychological problem with the warp. I assumed (not a good thing on my part) that the Imperium would seek to control warp travel as it is a gateway to a daemon universe, full of the exact same daemons which were the downfall of mankind. Also, the technology that enables warp travel is in essence a door to the warp. What is to stop someone just removing a warp engine (if common and unguarded) and opening a door for daemon to walk through? I see that the warp is used because it has to be used to maintain an empire, but everyone is terrified of it.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 24, 2004 13:09:28 GMT -5
I had noticed you take into account the fluff, that's why a value your opinion. Flatterer... OffT, look forward to hearing what you think. Any and all input is most welcome. Happy ripping There won't be ripping involved... but it is pretty hard when ultimately the major problem is that it doesn't quite 'gel' in your opinion... I'm not advocating a complete shift to Event Horizon, go for 'age of sail' plus giant squids. Exactly. 'Age of Sail' but where the "here by dragons" actually means something. That is not to say, however, that if you go to a certain place that is marked with said statement that you're automatically going to encounter one... So Navigator could do it standing on their head, whereas a calculated jump would have problems... No, no deja vu since were talking about two completely different phenomenon. The basic premise is that an introduction of a 'warp wake' will throw off the calculations of a non-navigated jump... but that results from the fact that you are in close proximity to the ships so as to maintain contact with the 'flag' (i.e. lead ship which contains the navigator). Indeed, one could argue that the concept is flawed in that the Navigator is going to be, in essence, simultaneously controlling the Geller Fields of a larger number of ships... I see what you are saying, but I think the advantage runs deeper. We disagree and, unfortunately, you'll have to be over-ruled on this one. Just making it longer? Doesn't the warp flow at a certain rate on any given route? Calculated or Navigated, there going to be similar. Depends... one interpretation of the Tau information is that they 'skim' the warp resulting in 'safer' transit, if somewhat 'shorter' than normal, and one which is that much slower... If nothing else, transit time will also taken into account the amount of time that is required to actually 'calculate' the jump, which itself requires observing the warp for a given period of time to make such calculations. You do not jump blind, which is perhaps one of the assumptions that you are making in contradiction with the 'fluff'. That's why I came up with that formula... Which I laud... I question the numbers, though. OK. As a personal preference I don't like the idea of 'navigator not needed'. This is because of my other concepts with regard to the Adeptus Machanicus and how the Imperium enforces control. Don't you find it strange that all those pirates, renegades, secret groups, or whatnot, all have managed to get 'corrupted Navigators'? Calculated jumps are a means of doing what you want even though you don't have the tools that you would prefer to hand... If I, as a ship owner, could have a Navigator I would select one every time. If I didn't I'd make a calculated jump... I disagree with the chances that you posted, not overtly the concepts. I always thought, given the history humans have with Psykers and the age of strife that they would have a huge psychological problem with the warp. Pragmatism.... reality... ...that the Imperium would seek to control warp travel as it is a gateway to a daemon universe... A fairly valid point, but one that is not particularly borne out given the 'fluff' on the 'Sea of Souls' etc. I see that the warp is used because it has to be used to maintain an empire, but everyone is terrified of it. Then once again we disagree... the use it because they can. There are problems, sure, but the hardy human soul can conquer all odds... Again, though, the level of loss, the 'requirement' (psychological and otherwise) are at this juncture over-ruled... It presents, again, a tedious universe in which only the Imperium travels, a feature which is in conflict with the 'fluff' on the earlier ages...
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 0:26:33 GMT -5
There won't be ripping involved... but it is pretty hard when ultimately the major problem is that it doesn't quite 'gel' in your opinion... It sounds like the problem you are describing is one of those 'can't put my finger on it, but something is wrong' type of problems. If you could put it into word it would be a great help. By dragons you mean 'dead pools', 'eddies' and full on 'warp storms'? More Navigators, a lead Navigator followed by those in 'training' who lock onto the 'flag'. Tau aren't the Imperium and do things differently. The Imperial warp engine is the same whether controlled via computer or navigator, it does the same thing, in the same way, at the same speed. numbers have changed again. No, I figure they were the only ones crazy enough and desperate enough to use calculated jumps, and because of this were limited in the range of influence they had. I thought smugglers would have to use calculated jumps when moving serious contraband to avoid the Navigator being 'tracked' (but the Navigators could be involved in minor stuff and have a hand in it without being anti-Imperium, maybe stuff that is against local law but the Imperium want in there regardless. Black ops etc.). Pirates in the Imperium? you'd have to be off your rocker to take up such a career. Pirates use calculated jumps because not have a Navigator means no Navigator signal (so no tracking once they jump and would be very hard to follow, unless done quickly and by a very skilled Imperial navigator). Doesn't seem quite right. - With big cargo ships, you could just hire a stasis protected 'load space' and have the benefit of a Navigator jump at a fraction of the cost.
- I'm sure a Navigator House could afford to sub a sector to get a huge cargo line set up, and then maintain the monopoly indefinitely.
- The Navigator House would keep a regular line running for all cargo transit, anyone can buy space for a trip (like the big metal containers used in modern shipping, that can be unload straight onto a truck).
- The Imperium loves this because the can nose around during the trip and see what be transported, scanning cargo, even opening it to have a look. Lots a Arbites ready to nab whoever tries to pick up a 'dodge' package.
Chances are changing. I think this idea is at the heart of why the Imperium has a problem with the warp and clamps down so hard. Not in 40K is doesn't. It doesn't stop other forms travelling, with all the corruption in 40K I'm sure all kinds of dodge charters can be had for the right price, smuggling etc would require a calculated jump as would being a pirate. As all travel within solar systems are 'sub-light' this means that a solar system can be very busy with out warp travel if more than one world is populated. Also I revised the jump table, so calculated jumps are just 'shorter' and not so dangerous.
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