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Post by Destecado on Jul 30, 2004 4:52:02 GMT -5
I have to ask, why? We know that the OO had the power to destroy Tomb Worlds, why not just blow the Tomb to pieces rather then develop a highly complicated technology that required constant maintenance to get the same effect (with the added risk of them escaping.) Welcome to the discussion ZoomDog. I agree with what Kage posted as answers to your question, but I will also try to elaborate a little on the concepts. As Kage stated, the experiment was conducted at a time after the emergence of the C'tan, when the War in Heaven had turned against the Old Ones. The Old Ones were divided on how to proceed. This experiment was probably one of many strategies being worked on to counteract the Necrons. As far as I rememebr from the Fluff, I don't think that the Necrons use warp technology. The Old Ones were masters of warp technology. The proto-dimension concept was mainly an outgrowth of the technology behind the Warp Gate Network (at least as I see it). Unfortunately the Warp Gates derive stability from our reality. If you look at our own universe (reality) you will see that it is also expanding. The original proto-dimension that was created by the Old Ones was too perfect in its design, it had internal perscision, but did not allow for growth or change. It must be rememebred that this proto-dimension was only an experiment and not the final prison. Many of the variables that allowed for changes to the system and expansion of the proto-dimension were left out to lower the difficulty in construction of the pocket reality. The Old Ones didn't know how hard it was going to be to maintain, this was just the trial run to see how it worked. After they had 'captured' the system, they saw how inefficient it was and discarded the idea (but kept this one going for study.) You are dead on. The Old Ones had created many amazing things such as the Warp Gate, (mentioned above) but nothing of the complexity involved with creating an enirely seperate reality distinct and seperated from our own. Its flaw would probably have become apparant within a short amount of time. They kept it going in order to study how to correct the flaws. Personally, I think they finally figured out that corecting the flaws was even beyond their considerable ability. Still the lessons that they learned and the information that was gathered would have proved invaluable in the construction of the Warhammer Fantasy Universe. (The fluff at one time stated that the fantasy universe existed somewhere within the 40k Universe....I'm not sure if this still holds true, but it does show that the Old Ones did have the technology to create proto or alternate realities). Rather than using the technology to imprison the Necrons, they used it to create a refuge for themselves. The Necron Tomb in question was a particularly powerful one, and this was seen as a less costly (in terms of life, military resources) method of defeating them. This, of course, depends on how the system is sent to the other dimension; can they do it from a distance, or must they fight their way into the system to perform it? The project was aimed at creating a method of removing the threat of the Necrons from the Galaxy while limiting the losses of the Old Ones and their allies. The same avenue of thought is what lead to the develpement and subsiquent use of the first nuclear bomb. I had not given much thought as to how the field would be applied, but Kage's answer seems to fit well. Whatever the method, it would be less costly than the manner in which the war had been fought up to that point. How does this affect time within the dimension? Has time frozen, or have the Necrons within been stuck with no-where to go for 60 million years? Also, how big was the area of space that was initially captured (just one system?), and how did this area of space split up when the proto-dimension shattered? Did the Tomb World go into one dimension, and it's sun another? One thought that's come to me is this: the Necrons have had 60 million years to study this dimension (unless time flows differently), so there remains the possibility that they have worked out how it works. Rather then undoing the effect and returning them to the original universe, could they not try to stabilise the effect? Once that is done, they could then develop a method of sending ships from their own dimension to the Materium, and back again. This would, essentially, create the ultimate hidden base for the Necrons; we know that they're all about raiding at the moment, hiding their bases and conducting small operations. Once in a while the Imperium finds a Tomb, and attempts to destroy it. Wouldn't having their base in a seperate reality be the ultimate defence? The Necrons would be able to strike at the Imperium with little to no threat of retaliation. I'm not saying that they should be at this point yet, but possibly that is the goal of the Necrons within the dimension. They're trying to find a way to 'control' it before it collapses back into the Materium. Their imprisonment could work out to be a great advantage. Time would flow differently in the fragments. In one, it may be flowing very slowly compared to our reality in others it could be flowing at the same speed or faster. A couple possibilites. Your thoughts on the Necrons having gained some knowledge in the mechanics of warp travel is a possibility, but I don't feel that we should discuss such things in this thread. This thread mostly deals with the macro concepts of the fragments, their origin, effect on the warp at the Heart of the Sector and their stability. Discussing the realities that exists within each fragment would best be covered in another thread. (or multiple threads)EDIT: based on Kage's correction of my misconception about the creation of the Web Way, I have gone back and edited this information in the original post.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 30, 2004 5:10:54 GMT -5
The proto-dimension concept was mainly an outgrowth of the technology behind the webway (at least as I see it). Nit-pick... The proto-dimension is an outgrowth of the technology behind the Warp Gate Network. The Webway is not created until much, much later and then by the eldar. The original proto-dimension that was created by the Old Ones was too perfect in its design, it had internal perscision, but did not allow for growth or change. A reasonable explanation, but I cannot help but feel that there is something lacking from it. I don't know what at the moment... perhaps merely the assumption that the Old Ones didn't incorporate growth... Actually, forget that. I can buy this now that I expand it to the concepts behind the Warp Gate Network and subsequent Webway... It must be rememebred that this proto-dimension was only an experiment and not the final prison. Strangely enough if it had succeeded I would have imagined that it would have been more than a prison: it would have been capable of destroying the Necrons. In that way it is somewhat reminiscent of the Talismans of Vaul... You are dead on. The Old Ones had created many amazing things such as the Web Way, (mentioned above)... No, they didn't. Your thoughts on the Necrons having gained some knowledge in the mechanics of warp travel is a possibility, but I don't feel that we should discuss such things in this thread. The problem here is that the justifications for the inimicability of the warp is one of the bigger sets of hand-waving out there. There is no real reason that the Necrons cannot model the flow of warp, or create a technology which is at least capable of passively viewing it (consider that is what warp drives are capable of)... The only potential reason that they cannot traverse the warp is that they have no soul... But that's not a particularly palatable answer.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 30, 2004 6:28:58 GMT -5
Now that I can buy. Making a prison for Necrons doesn't entirely make sense - just blow them up - but a prison for C'tan is another story. There must have been a point after the Necron'tyr had created/found the C'tan and before the Blackstone Fortresses were built when the Old Ones were considering how exactly you stop a creature that is Immune to Natural Law. They would fairly quickly have realized you need a weapon or prison where natural laws of our universe don't apply. Dropping the target into a proto-dimension with radically different physics and then sealing the "door" behind them must have looked like it would do the trick. Unfortunately, tests showed the protodimension would start to "unlock" after 60 million or so years. The Old Ones being the Old Ones and the C'tan being the C'tan, 60 million years isn't good enough, so the Blackstone Fortresses were built.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 30, 2004 13:07:07 GMT -5
Exactly, kinda... the Talismans of Vaul become an extension of the original idea in much the same way that the Webway is an extension, development and refinment of the Warp Gate Network. But the Old Ones idea went... awry...
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Post by ZoomDog on Jul 30, 2004 18:18:59 GMT -5
First off, the technology is not envisioned as requiring constant maintenance. Rather that's just how it ended up. The idea was to separate the Tomb world from the matterium and cast them into the Realms of Chaos and not only destroy their form but also their essence... Ah, I must've missed something. I was under the impression that the proto-dimensions were totally seperate from the Warp. That kinda ruins half my theories (and answers half my questions). Agreed, the OO's never really struck me as a military type race, they would prefer to incapacitate their enemies rather then destroy them. Of course, against an enemy such as the C'Tan/Necrons destroying them is just as good, but they would still prefer to do it without sending in hordes of troops. True, but they haven't really had anything to do other then wait. The Necrons within the 'prison' wouldn't have had to fear anything attacking them, and likely would've been concerned with just how they get out of the prison, (although the problem of energy comes up, depending on just how their generate their energy. Without a sun and all. Maybe they had to enter stasis to avoid 'running out of batteries'. Yeah, didn't realise it was Warp Tech. I take back everything I said about the Necrons working it out. Unfortunately the Warp Gates derive stability from our reality. If you look at our own universe (reality) you will see that it is also expanding. The original proto-dimension that was created by the Old Ones was too perfect in its design, it had internal perscision, but did not allow for growth or change. I find it unlikely that a race as advanced as the Old Ones would fail to account for something like this. How about they mis-calculated the advance of time within the proto-dimension. Eg, the Old Ones said 'expand the dimension by 14% once every 14.3 centuries'. However, with the Warp being a little unprecise with it's time, the Dimension grew too fast/too slow, and the resulting stresses caused it to fracture. As mentioned before, I take it back. While I don't believe the Necrons are quite as ignorant of the Warp as many believe (science can be used to study the Warp, and the Necrons are the masters of physical sciences), they lack what is needed to 'use' the Warp, namely the soul. But like you say, OffT. Strangely enough if it had succeeded I would have imagined that it would have been more than a prison: it would have been capable of destroying the Necrons. In that way it is somewhat reminiscent of the Talismans of Vaul... Doesn't it create a fully contained area of space though? Or does it just 'dump' the world into the Warp. If the latter is the case, it's less of a prison and more of a Doomsday Weapon. Similar to what I mentioned above. After all, the Necrons have created the Pylons, which were designed to block the Warp, so it's known that the Warp can be interracted with without a Soul. However, travelling through the Warp is a different matter. The Imperium needs psykers to travel through the Warp, in the same way that the Tau cannot use 'proper' Warp travel, they can only 'skip' across it. (Actually, that's not true. Humans used Warp Travel long before psykers started to appear. And what about Space Hulks? Don't they drift through the Warp, and are often totally empty? Perhaps psykers are just needed to actually navigate, whereas anything can jump into the Warp, not knowing where they will end up.) I think my knowledge on Warp Travel needs some work before I continue. Now that I can buy. Making a prison for Necrons doesn't entirely make sense - just blow them up As Kage mentioned earlier, it depends upon what range the Prison can be created from. If they can do it from the outskirts of the system, then they would be able to arrive, whisk the Tomb World away, and then leave, with little to no casualties. Whereas invading the TombWorld, destroying it's defenders and then annihilating the Tomb is going to be very costly. It would make a good anti-C'Tan device yes, but it still had great potential against the Necrons.
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Post by Destecado on Aug 9, 2004 6:45:43 GMT -5
I find it unlikely that a race as advanced as the Old Ones would fail to account for something like this. How about they mis-calculated the advance of time within the proto-dimension. Eg, the Old Ones said 'expand the dimension by 14% once every 14.3 centuries'. However, with the Warp being a little unprecise with it's time, the Dimension grew too fast/too slow, and the resulting stresses caused it to fracture. Having the calculations be off is a possibility. It all depends on how we are defining the process of elminating the Necrons. Was the protodimension going to act as a contanment vessel or as a prison? 1, Prison As I've already stated earlier, building such a construct was probably very difficult. If you were able to eliminate some of the variables, construction would be easier. Once constructed, you would then be able to determine what other variable needed to be added back into the calculation until you could strike a happy medium. Although I was thinking that this might be the way to go as an explanation for the stones, after further thought, I have come to favor the idea of a containment field over that of a prison. 2. Containment Vessel The containment vessel approach would have to last only long enough to seperate them from our reality and then cast them upon the warp where the proto-dimension would eventually unravel thus destroying the necrons. In this case the Old Ones would not have needed to build the containment field to allow for exspansion. They would be counting on those very flaws to break down the proto-dimension....letting entropy do the work for them. This test might have been an attempt to study how long it would take for the proto-dimension to break down. Perhaps it did not break down quickly enough or after it fractured it reached a certain level of stability so that the bigger chunks did not break down further, but exerted odd effects on the localized warp. This might be why they abandoned the project. Blowing up suns might have been found to be more efficient and less damaging to the localized warp. Doesn't it create a fully contained area of space though? Or does it just 'dump' the world into the Warp. If the latter is the case, it's less of a prison and more of a Doomsday Weapon. This is still up for debate. The way I see it, the proto-dimension is created first in the warp, similar to the construction of a net or web. The proto-dimension rather than being drawn from our own reality is created from energy drawn directly from the void and surrounding warp space. The strands of the proto-reality are tethered to the containment vessels. A modified warpgate is then used to draw the target into the proto-dimension from real space. Once the target is trapped, the containment vessels release the tethers to the reality and let it drift away to unravel in warp space. Similar to what I mentioned above. After all, the Necrons have created the Pylons, which were designed to block the Warp, so it's known that the Warp can be interracted with without a Soul. However, travelling through the Warp is a different matter. The Imperium needs psykers to travel through the Warp, in the same way that the Tau cannot use 'proper' Warp travel, they can only 'skip' across it. (Actually, that's not true. Humans used Warp Travel long before psykers started to appear. And what about Space Hulks? Don't they drift through the Warp, and are often totally empty? Perhaps psykers are just needed to actually navigate, whereas anything can jump into the Warp, not knowing where they will end up.) I think my knowledge on Warp Travel needs some work before I continue. One of the reasons that the Necrons would have difficulty interacting with the warp is that they lack the technology at this time to create a geller field. If they had this technology, I see no reason why they should not be able to operate in the warp. Without such technology, the Necrons would be subject to the entropic effects of warp exposure. The way I view the warp is as the interaction point between reality and the void. The basic form in which matter exists is as pure energy? All matter if broken down releases energy as the bonds that hold it together are broken. What we call reality is therefore energy locked into specific shapes and forms. In its natural state energy is formless. It exists in what we would term the void, a sea of shapless and formless energy. I don't think we need to go into specifics of how a realty is shaped here, but all realities are seperate and distinct from the void. They condence and force matter into certain shapes or patterns. Matter will always try to retunr to this most basic form. This break down is what would be termed entropy. Objects and entities exposed to the warp without a geller field will begin to feel the effects of this breakdown. Simple objects such as a bulkhead or piece of armor will be less effected to start with. complex systems or those with many moving parts will fall victim first. The higher rate of mutations in humans for worlds exposed to heavy warp storms show the effects of entropy that would be also become apparent in those exposed to the warp. Replication errors in cells or growth of cancers begin to creep into the genetic code. For computer systems, parts begin to degrade or errors begin to appear in programs. This of course would take some time, but eventually the build up in errors to the Necrons systems and the break down in parts might degrade the Necrons beyond repair.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 13:02:32 GMT -5
Nah... they are a part of it, at least in my interpretation. In fact the "Realms of Chaos" are (at least a part) of those proto-dimensions... One might consider the idea that as 'warp tech' it would be accessible through the same... ergo, at least at first they might have been dealing with strikes from all directions, of varying magnitudes, etc. They fortify for it and then... oops... the field has gone. Then again all that is meant to illustrate is that the Necrons might not have been definitively working on a way 'out' for all that time... More so if time is, erm, quirky in wherever it is they are at the moment. Now that is and interesting point. I would doubt that they were dependent on solar cell technology but still... Ooh. Potential there. Not quite, as you later point out... Miscalculation is the best way to go... Again, as is subsequently pointed out humanity when they had "no" psykers were capable of producing 'warp tech'. They had souls, though, but the fact that they could produce an artefact which did the same... well, as you say it means that things are possible. The premise is that it creates a separate reality (e.g. an "astral construct", in some regards similar to the Webway) and then 'pushes' it beyond the boundary between the warp and the "Realms of Chaos". In so doing the Necrons are destroyed. Ultimately. Their essence scattered. Is this your interpretation, or is this something that GW has eventually come out of the closet and specifically determined? Calculated warp jumps. This proves the matter before that... Now I think you're reaching. The pre-Imperium humans - and indeed calculated warp jumps - are the proof that this point is not true. Thus, perhaps at least, some other thing is in play with the Tau. Perhaps warp transition is a bimodal. You throw in one amount of energy and you get to one point, another amount and you get to another point...? Ah, but the wargame portions of the project would demand that there is a cost! There is a bit hair between those two... Now that is a good point... perhaps they did not account for "dimensional momentum", or the equivalent?
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Post by Destecado on Aug 16, 2004 10:39:45 GMT -5
Ok, so I think we should go with the idea that it was a containment vessel used to shunt the Necrons from our reality and into the warp. From there, the Old Ones were going to leave it to the forces of entropy to unravel the proto-dimension and the necrons with it. How long do you think it would have taken for the proto-dimension to fragment under the stresses?
Would it have been immediate or taken several weeks, months or years before it to gave way? (This is subjectively speaking of course, since the time frame would be based on the observer in our own reality)
We also need to descide how much time has passed in that reality. Is it consistent with the flow of time in our reality or is it faster or slower? Does time flow evenly from one fragment to the other?
We also need to look into the possibility of necron evolution. As a machine, it may not seem possible, but with the advent of such new models as the Pariah, is it possible that new Necron variants exist that have never been seen before in our reality.
There also exists the question of crossing between these other dimensions. What effects will their differing laws have on creatures or objects from our reality? Should we open up the proto-dimension fragments to be designed in a similar manner to worlds in the different sectors?
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 16, 2004 13:15:54 GMT -5
I dunno, it still seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to for a mere Necron tomb world. I just can't imagine that it would be that difficult for the Old Ones to blow up a planet, even from a considerable distance away. To be fair, we have no real idea what the Necron's full war machine looked like (perhaps literally), as we've just seen the skirmishers and probes to date. If a Monolith is considered a light scouting unit, I suppose I can believe that there are things which make it disadvantageous to close and do battle with a tomb world (I get this image of a Necron structure resembling Starcraft's Xel'naga Temple on Shakuras, massive arms raising into position around a multi-kilometre high pyramid, and the Old One leader shouting out the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar in RotJ- "It's a trap!" as a massive green energy beam reaches out to touch the Old Ones at a distance of 100AU... ).
Was the prison intended to be a permanent solution or more of a knockout-gas to let the OO get in position? On this view, they intended to slaughter the captured Necrons, one tomb world at a time, freezing every forc they encounter and coming back for them at leisure... but the Enslaver plague hit, their fortunes continued to decline and after the plague was over the Eldar alone weren't up to taking on even a single fully operational tomb world and the Krork were uncontrollable.
Edit: My concern is that it seems a bit sloppy and inefficient for the Old Ones, but given how well the Krork worked out for everyone, I guess not every idea was a winner...
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 16, 2004 23:06:22 GMT -5
I think it would be a mistake to associate 'god like' perfection to the Old Ones, despite the fact that this is something that GW tends to do in the narrative. (Not surprising, when it comes down to it.) With regards to the amount of 'trouble'... yes. Ish. Kinda. Is a long term experiment which would, ultimately, annihilate completely Necron and C'tan be that much of a waste of resources? The concept here is that seven systems were used to generate the 'field' but, later, it was hoped that they could be placed on ships... Indeed, one could argue that the eldar having found some reference to such a plan might have constructed the Talismans of Vaul to achieve the same end, developing the idea beyond that which the Old Ones attempted...
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Post by Destecado on Aug 17, 2004 3:48:40 GMT -5
The problem with trying to deal with the Necrons by brute force (massed fleets) is that even if you destroyed their bodies, new ones could be built. To confront a tomb world directly was not only costly in ships and equipment, but skilled piolts. It was hoped that by seperating the tomb worlds from our reality, they could throw gaps into the Necrons command and control structure.
A tomb world under attack from an Old One or eldar fleet might call for reinforcements. The Old Ones and theiir allies might finish off the tomb world only to face a fresh enemy and in turn be defeated themselves. This experiment was to make a weapon that would block the ability of the Necrons to communicate with their other forces. It would be as if the tomb world or Necron fleet just ceased to exist as it was shunted out of our reality.
As Kage stated, this was just the prototype. Once it could be proven to work, the Old Ones would have turned to miniaturizing the technology. Unfortunately, they either ran out of time or fell short of the results they were trying to achieve. It is most likely a combination of both.
Kage, now that you mention the Talismans of Vaul, aren't they larger versions of the D cannon? Actually, I can see the D Cannon as being a possible off shoot of the technology created for this experiment. rather than trying to create a massive field around the object, they instead destabilize (or Distort) the target by opening a hole inside of it to the warp. A different approach and delivery system, but much the same result as that which the Old Ones were trying to acheive.
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