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Post by Destecado on Jun 11, 2004 4:20:01 GMT -5
Actually I see it as a combination of the two. The proto dimension was summoned forth, but it was given shape and definition by the person(s) that summoned it. In the Songs of Earth & Power there is a place called Null. It is where makers go to create new Realms.
In the Null there is an upper portion which might be analguous with upper manifold space it acts primarily like a giant eraser. Ill formed realms may be sent there to be recycled. There is also a lower portion where the realities are set loose to spin amongst all of the other realities. This could perhaps be thought of as the warp.
To me the upper Null (Upper Manifold Space) can be seen as the priomordial void. The void is formless, but far from empty. It encompasses all of the potential possibilities that can exist. When that potential is pulled down, it is given form or forced into a certain shape by the intelligence directing its creation.
No new matter is created. One potential of the multitude of forms that an object may take is selected.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Beginning of the Book of Genesis
This is where the idea of chaos or entropy comes into the equation. Although matter has been impressed into a certain form, it still has memory of its previous ability to be a multitude of shapes, colors, patterns, etc. It trys to return to that state. As the old addage goes, life is change.
It may be that the Old One's prison realm fractured, because they did not allow for change. It may have been too static. Entropy built up beyond its ability to contain. Does this sound more like the idea you were after?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 12, 2004 2:40:29 GMT -5
Actually I see it as a combination of the two. The proto dimension was summoned forth, but it was given shape and definition by the person(s) that summoned it. Ever read Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber? Your essentially describing the philosophy of the shadows, i.e. do they have an existence of their own, or in the 'summoning' (actually shadow-walking of an Amberite) are they given existence...? Same thing applies to the Otherworlds and, indeed, we could have some fun with 'colour text' pieces describing the metaphysics of these "enhanced knowledge"... To me the upper Null (Upper Manifold Space) can be seen as the priomordial void. The void is formless, but far from empty. It encompasses all of the potential possibilities that can exist. For me the Upper Manifold might be thought of as the "Plane of Mind", the undifferentiated 'universal (sub)consciousness' of all sentient beings. It is the first and final 'gateway' to all possibilites; all things that are conceived. On one side you have the 'otherworlds', the upper branches of the Tree of Life (as it were), formed and moulded by consensus... on the other you have the dreams of material form... It is part of the reason that the Upper Manifold is thought of - inappropriately - as the rubicon between the reasonably ordered lower parts of the warp (conscious) to the darker and fluidic realms of the Otherworlds (subconscious). What does this mean in terms applicable to the 40k universe? Only that reality is muteable (which we know), that there are dark Cthonian creatures which try and come through the minds of certain individuals (which we know)... "'Fluff' transparency" but with a tad more interest... When that potential is pulled down, it is given form or forced into a certain shape by the intelligence directing its creation. Or did they merely summon forth a proto-dimension that already existed? That's the point... Does this sound more like the idea you were after? Not really, but it's a start! ;D Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 12, 2004 3:28:49 GMT -5
Ever read Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber? Your essentially describing the philosophy of the shadows, i.e. do they have an existence of their own, or in the 'summoning' (actually shadow-walking of an Amberite) are they given existence...? Same thing applies to the Otherworlds and, indeed, we could have some fun with 'colour text' pieces describing the metaphysics of these "enhanced knowledge"... I think it is all about prespective. Each person might view their reality as the only "real" reality, with others as only shadows of their own. If they then go about forming a new reality, they of course might feel some proprietory claim over it. to create a thing is to own or control a thing. Of course we know that sometimes the things created slip the bonds of their creators. I'm familiar with the books of Amber as well (I've also played the diceless RPG based off the books), but I never agreed with the idea that any one reality should be though better than another. They are just variations on a theme. Shadow walking from one reality to another is an interesting concept that we might want to explore. This I think has alot in common with jumping through the warp. Of course instead of traveling to another reality, we only use it to traverse the distances of our own reality, but these can just be thought of as baby steps. Remember early sailers use to follow the coast when sailing. This would pretain to skimming our own reality. When proper navigation techniques had been invented or when there were intrepid enough explores, they sailed away from the sight of land across the great expanse of water. This might be what happened to the Old Ones. They are said to have disappeared, but what if they left for a reality where the Necrontyr never existed? Maybe this could also be what happened to some ships lost in the warp. Rather than just being destroyed, they may have washed up on the "shores" of some other dimension. Still I don't see this as the method used for creating "new" realities. Perhaps the technique for creating or pulling a proto reality from upper mainfold space is more like the power of Logrus. For me the Upper Manifold might be thought of as the "Plane of Mind", the undifferentiated 'universal (sub)consciousness' of all sentient beings. It is the first and final 'gateway' to all possibilites; all things that are conceived. On one side you have the 'otherworlds', the upper branches of the Tree of Life (as it were), formed and moulded by consensus... on the other you have the dreams of material form... I've always been partial to the concept of the one. That everything at one time was part of a cohesive whole. The Demiurge (not the 40k race) but the one from gnostic (and other religions) philosophy. The demiurge was the Great Artificer or Fabricator, the Architect of the universe. Oddly enough this concept finds its way into the Songs of Earth & Power in the form of the Urges. They were a race whose purpose was as makers of new realms for people to inhabit. Though loosley used as a name for The Creator, the word never strictly meant "one who produces out of nothing", but only "one who fashions, shapes, and models". It is part of the reason that the Upper Manifold is thought of - inappropriately - as the rubicon between the reasonably ordered lower parts of the warp (conscious) to the darker and fluidic realms of the Otherworlds (subconscious). What does this mean in terms applicable to the 40k universe? Only that reality is muteable (which we know), that there are dark Cthonian creatures which try and come through the minds of certain individuals (which we know)... "'Fluff' transparency" but with a tad more interest... Reality is the stuff that dreams are made of. The dreams, hopes and wishes of the Demiurge. All psychers can be thought of as children of the Demiurge. Psychic ability might need to be better defined. My thoughts on this are that it is a link back to the ability to create new realities. If you think about it psykers may be connecting with the warp or with upper mainfold space. What they are doing is changing the reality around them to fit their needs or wants. Some must train years in order to do this. Others are random talents that can draw on this ability almost unconsciously. It is the will to create and reshape reality in your image. Of course when they are doing this, they may draw something down out of the warp or upper manifold or the strength of this reality may slap them down. Training is learning subtlety. Learning what rules this reality will allow you to bend. To me it is very reminicent of the training Neo goes through in the first Matrix movie.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 12, 2004 4:08:56 GMT -5
I'm familiar with the books of Amber as well (I've also played the diceless RPG based off the books)... <grin> Yep, so have I. I went through a phase when I thought it was great. Unfortuntely so too did my RPG group and they would from the point that I introduced them to the game not play anything else... Well, other than those games where they could play superhumans, vampires, or whatever... ...but I never agreed with the idea that any one reality should be though better than another. They are just variations on a theme. Well, outside of the Amber universe I would agree with you... but the idea that there is only one "true world" kind of goes with the universe concept! Shadow walking from one reality to another is an interesting concept that we might want to explore. <grin> If you checked out the now defunct and old webpage of mine, you'll note that I had a "Dimension Walk" skill borrowed rather heavily from Dark Conspiracy. (Okay, it was a copy into GURPS! ) It's something that I'm keen on including into the project, but only in a minor way... (Erm, not those rules... with the adoption of magic as the core means of representing psykers in my RPG interpretation, they are no longer necessary!) Remember early sailers use to follow the coast when sailing. This would pretain to skimming our own reality. You will note that I use similar terms talking about warp-matterium precipitation (i.e. 'skimming the event horizon' of the lower manifold, etc.) and that, further, the analogy of 'coast hugging' versus full navigation is made elsewhere, i.e. the difference between calculated jumps and Navigated jumps. This might be what happened to the Old Ones. They are said to have disappeared, but what if they left for a reality where the Necrontyr never existed? I'm not strictly comfortable with a 'complete' parallel dimension... A hideaway, maybe but not a completely different reality with it's own version of the warp, etc... And the Old Ones are still around, if in a degenerate form: the Slann. Whether they transcended beings that were the Old Ones have truly gone, or whether they're just hanging around in the form of the High Mages is another question. Maybe this could also be what happened to some ships lost in the warp. Rather than just being destroyed, they may have washed up on the "shores" of some other dimension. That's one of the possibilities that I was considering exploring with an RPG story involving the 'fragments'. Perhaps the technique for creating or pulling a proto reality from upper mainfold space is more like the power of Logrus. Kind of... desire calling the relevant proto-dimension. Psychic ability might need to be better defined. <grin> Don't worry... I've got a fairly consistent system which to interpret psyker powers! If you think about it psykers may be connecting with the warp or with upper mainfold space. What they are doing is changing the reality around them to fit their needs or wants. Essentially, yes. They are manipulating consensual reality... I'm reminded of Quintessence for some reason. Just because this is represented as drawing power directly from the warp isn't really relevant, a by-product of the manipulation of the upper manifold... ...and another reason that psykers that play around too much tend to weaken the Rubicon and allow the dark things out to play! Although we're now moving rapidly OffT. We know what the 'stones' are, roughly: the fragments of a proto-dimension that was created to imprison the Necrons. It has been suggested that they are remnants of a 'virtual portal' used to entrap the Tombworld system (or whatever), but something went wrong... the 'virtual portal' snapped back in on itself, creating the fragments concentrated around the 'machine' that was creating them, but also the other little 'pebbles' which remain out there. The 'stones' have an obvious impact upon the warp which, when coupled with the powerful current that crashes up against them, makes warp travel difficult if not impossible. This we've known for some time since it's the basic concept. So the prison has failed, meaning that the Necrons can come out to play when they want... or is something else preventing them? (This is again old ground, but I thought I would reiterate the question since I cannot quite remember an obvious answer!) At the moment nothing is preventing them coming out to play, which is a good thing and a bad thing: it means the complete failure of the 'prison' and the serendipitous event that the Necrons went into stasis at about the same time... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 12, 2004 4:37:58 GMT -5
Perhaps the Necrons are warring among themselves. I have always felt that the Necrontyr were duped into taking on the Necrodermis, be it by their leaders or the C'tan. In the fluff, the Necron Lords and a few others have maintained their sentience or at least some form of intellignece, while the others were reduced to mindless saves.
What if some effect within the proto dimension restored if not their full sentince, then at least a part of it. I'm reminded of the movie Maximum Overdrive (based on a Stephen King short story) where machines came to life due to an odd radiation from a passing comet...or something like that.
It may be that there are factions that have remained loyal to the Necron Lord, while others have rebelled. I like the idea of an endless war between machines that has been going on for millenium. they may have laid waste to at least one or several of the "stones". Having humans wah up on the shores of the proto dimension could catch them in the middle of this war or make on or both sides aware of a reality outside of their current existance.
The war would be like machines caught in an endless program loop. Outside intervention might be the only way to break the stalemate. It could be that theyhave also decimated eachother to the point that carrying on the war is next to impossible. The arrival of a human ship could privide the necessary resources for one side to finish of the other.
This would not only allow for battles between humans and Necrons, but battle between Necron forces. There is also the issue of wether or not the Necrons that rebelled would be able to retain their sentience if they crossed back to our reality. Maybe they are willing to help illiminate the other Necrons in order to be left alone by everyone. What are your thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 12, 2004 5:38:05 GMT -5
Perhaps the Necrons are warring among themselves. Well, that's a pretty standard part of the 'fluff', i.e. that the C'tan and therefore the Necrons can come into conflict. Let's just face it, even if there wasn't a reason for them to be able to fight GW would have to introduce them so that two Necron players would be able to play their wargame... I have always felt that the Necrontyr were duped into taking on the Necrodermis, be it by their leaders or the C'tan. Again, a fairly accepted part of the 'fluff'. In the fluff, the Necron Lords and a few others have maintained their sentience or at least some form of intellignece, while the others were reduced to mindless saves. Always considered this an artefact of transcription errors in recopying (i.e. the more you get blown up the more likely copy errors are going to appear). What if some effect within the proto dimension restored if not their full sentince, then at least a part of it. I'm personally reticent at this, but that ties into how I view the Necrons... Maybe a thread to be started in that section? It's been rather lonely for a while now... It may be that there are factions that have remained loyal to the Necron Lord, while others have rebelled. I like the idea of an endless war between machines that has been going on for millenium. The original idea was, however, to keep them asleep though... Having humans wah up on the shores of the proto dimension could catch them in the middle of this war or make on or both sides aware of a reality outside of their current existance.[/'quote] This presupposes location in the proto-dimension and the fact that they are awake... Hmmn... I think I'm personally going around in circles here. I think it might be useful if you make a quick synopsis of how you think it's working... Then we both know, roughly, where we're coming from. Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 14, 2004 2:54:11 GMT -5
I am of the mind that there are an infinite number of potential universes....this is not to say that an infinite number exists, but that the potential for them to exist is out there. Upper manifold space is where these potentialities reside. It is the realm of all possibilities and for me represents the void.
The void is formless. All matter exists here as formless patters of energy. It is only when this energy is coupled to a state, which it sorts itself out into what we would be able to recognize as a reality. This creation of realities may be driven by some force in the void directly....look at the creation myths of most cultures or a new reality might be created by beings from one of the other realities.
What is known as the warp is the area in which these realities separate themselves out from the void. The best way to imagine this would be a glass filled with oil and water. The oil being lighter generally floats on top of the water. If minute particles are then dropped into the mixture they will attract particles of the oil, but because they are heavier than the water, they will sink through the oil layer into the water, carrying some of the particles of oil with them.
The particles dropped into the water are the core of reality around which the potentialities (oil) gather. It then separates itself out from the oil layer (void) the water layer would be considered the warp. It is the medium on which these realities "float"
Entropy would be the effect attempting to pull back to the surface those particles of oil that attached themselves to the particle dropped in the mixture.
In the case of a "proto reality", the entity creating it would draw down particles of oil from the oil layer (void) in order to create a new reality. They would need to make an object or they themselves would act as the particle to which the oil particles would attach themselves.
The "proto reality" created by the Old Ones, may have been inherently flawed. It may have been made too rigidly and therefore unable to stand the stresses of entropy. Whatever caused the fracture, it now lays broken into several large pieces, along with many smaller ones.
The fracturing of the reality might have had something to do with its proximity to our own. Perhaps the oil particles making up that reality were attracted to our own as well as suffering the effects of entropy, which are continually pulling from upper manifold space. This may have acted similarly to tidal stresses (or vanderwaals attraction) and torn the proto dimension apart.
The fragments of the fractured reality would still be subject to the same attracting forces. Some of the smaller pebbles may have fallen into our own reality over the ages. They could have lead to fluctuations in the reality (reality shifts) in the Heart of the Sector or in other areas around the sector. Maybe this would actually be a place to have a fantasy style world.
The fragments are still breaking up. Some of the material is being back to the void while other particles are being drawn into our own reality. This is a slow process, but the realities may have become inherently unstable. It may be that the reality fragment in which the Necron Tomb World is imprisoned with eventually transition back into our own reality. This is how they can be freed.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 14, 2004 9:49:40 GMT -5
I am of the mind that there are an infinite number of potential universes....this is not to say that an infinite number exists, but that the potential for them to exist is out there. Upper manifold space is where these potentialities reside. Okay, let me put it this way... I agree with you. I will say, however, that we're not going to go down the realms of 'parallel universes'. Why not? Erm... 'cos. Let us suffice with the only things that can be drawn across the 'rubicon' are the fragments... the otherworldy visions. True, all things may be accessed through the upper manifold but I would prefer it if we stayed away from that for the purposes of the ASP...? So that would be fragments to be played around with, and not fully developed parallel universes. What is known as the warp is the area in which these realities separate themselves out from the void. Which is when we're getting into the realm of astral constructs, although I would be reticent to have them 'floating around the warp', as it were... Whatever caused the fracture, it now lays broken into several large pieces, along with many smaller ones. Which if you remember your Dark Conspiracy 'fluff' just makes them a tad more on the surreal side... potentially... The fragments are still breaking up. Some of the material is being back to the void while other particles are being drawn into our own reality. I do however like this imagery... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Jun 15, 2004 8:00:51 GMT -5
Okay, let me put it this way... I agree with you. I will say, however, that we're not going to go down the realms of 'parallel universes'. Why not? Erm... 'cos. Let us suffice with the only things that can be drawn across the 'rubicon' are the fragments... the otherworldy visions. True, all things may be accessed through the upper manifold but I would prefer it if we stayed away from that for the purposes of the ASP...? I agree that we do not need to go down the path of opening alternate realities within the project. This exercise was mearly so that we could set in our minds the mechanics behind trhe creation of the proto dimension. The information we have covered here would not really show up in the write up of the ASP. The tech level for creating new dimensions is well beyond the scope of any race currently operating within the 40k Universe. Only the Old Ones approached this level of technology and this was just at the very "end" of their civilization. We know that they created the proto dimension or reality in which the Warhammer Fatasy world exists, so I feel that the above explanation is fluff transparant. Which is when we're getting into the realm of astral constructs, although I would be reticent to have them 'floating around the warp', as it were... Again, this is an area that I don't think we need to explain fully in the ASP. It is mearly for us to gain a handle on the mechanics of the system we are setting up. Any explanation of these interactions would be by Imperial standards simplistic if not unexplainable. As to floating in the warp...would you say that galaxies float through the universe? Like the galaxies of our own universe, I see each "reality" as occupying a specific place, but also having a specific speed, tragectory and rotation. As with galaxies, sometimes these paths may intersect sending two realities crashing into eachother. Other realities might be drifting back towards Upper Manifold Space where they will eventually find dissolution back into the void. These are realities at the end of their life cycle. I do however like this imagery... It would lead to some iteresting possibilities as the reality of the fragment trys to find equilibrium with our reality. There could also be cracks that run through the proto dimensional fragments. In these areas the physical laws of the reality could be lessened or enven suspended. They would almost be like ley lines from which psychers could draw power. Unlike ley lines though, they would appear as spider web like fractures apparent to those sensative to the warp. Such areas would also make it easier for warp entities or things drawn from upper manifold space to slip through.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 13:02:38 GMT -5
Perhaps, Destecado, you feel you could handle describing the Heart at this juncture? We would need to - briefly - go over the main concepts (in bullet format, if possible! ) but it should be relatively swift...
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Post by Destecado on Jul 29, 2004 12:05:17 GMT -5
Well for the most part the discussion of the Heart of the Sector centered around explaining why it is so difficult and dangerous to navigate. Out of that discussion arose the idea of stones in a river creating rapids that dirupted the flow of the warp and therefore disrupted navigation through this area. It was descided that these "stones" were micro realities or proto-dimensions. Proto-Dimensions CreationThe Proto-Dimensions are the remains of an experiment long ago by the Old Ones to trap the Necrons in a prison that would eliminate them as a threat. The idea was to sepreate the Necrons from our reality and trap them in a pocket reality from which there was no escape. Some other work has been done on the elimination of all other Necron forces and tomb worlds within the sector. It is only reasonable that the Old Ones would create such a "cleansed" area to prevent the Necrons or C'tan from catching wind of their plot. Collapse of Proto-DimensionAlthough the Old Ones were able to encapsulate a Necron force within the proto-dimension, it was inherantly unstable. The prison required constant monitoring to counteract and bleed off the stresses caused by these flaws. The departure of the Old Ones left the prison unmaintained. Fragments Effects on the WarpEventually the proto-dimension gave into the stresses and fractured. There are currently seven major fragments of the proto-dimension along with multitudes of minor fragment pieces. Through mutual attraction they have remained close to our own reality. Unlike gravity wells or population densities that exist in "real space" which create depressions in warp space, the attraction of the fragments create bulges in warp space. These "bulges" act in much the same manner as rock in a river, creating rapids in the flow of warp currents through the Heart of the Sector. The disruption of the fragments are also directly responsible for the warp phenomenon known as the Sargasso Gulf There are several threads relating to the gulf, but the linked thread highlights the concepts behind the creation of the gulf. Proximity & Stability of FragmentsRather than being fixed in position like rocks in a river, the proto-dimensional fragements tend to oscilate and move. This leads to changes in the patterns of the "rapids" through the Heart of the Sector, making it nearly impossible to map a safe route through the area. Warp disturbances such as the Pendulum Tide or warp storms can push the fragments further away or draw them closer. The fragments are also unstable. Some are being drawn closer to our reality and may some day actually merge back into it (This possibility is left open for future plot developement in the ASP). Others are unraveling. The latter is mostly true of the smaller fragments. The seven large fragments tend to be relatively stable. Author's Note
These are the basics behind the Heart of the Sector concept. Kage, please let me know if you feel that I have omitted anything
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 29, 2004 12:13:43 GMT -5
Now that you're a Rogue Inquisitor, feel free to select a colour with which you can add your comments... Remember that red is CELS, and yellow - I like to think of it as gold - is mine... Proto-Dimensions Creation... Yep, that seems to work, although I'm not sure at the mention of 'other' Necron tomb worlds. Collapse of the Proto-Dimension... We are working on the premise that it is a Tomb World. Furthermore, lack of maintenace of the 'generating devices' (needed in the initial creation/"summoning" of the proto-dimension) resulted in the 'stones'... More work needs to be done with just what the 'fragments' are. Are they 'dimensionally' continuous though spatially discrete when manifested in the warp/matterium? Or something else? Fragments Effects on the Warp... Okay, not much to add to this as the basic summary. Proximity & Stability of Fragments... Agreed, more so with the fact that the Heart is the cause of some problems and is reactive to others.
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Post by Destecado on Jul 29, 2004 12:31:35 GMT -5
Ok, I've found a different color to use for my comments. As to the idea of the other Necron assets within the Anargo Sector being eliminated....I think that it was brought up in the Necron forum in the folowing thread. kagemat.proboards19.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Necrons&thread=1072249587&start=15ErnestBorgnine had brought up the concept of a dormant or missing tomb world somewhere in the Anargo Sector....I can't remember specifically who mentioned that the others had been eliminated, but the idea seemed to fit. If the necrons know that a certain tomb world or fleer has been eliminated, they might write it off or put it low on a list of priorities to investigate. A missing tomb world might be another matter all together.
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Post by ZoomDog on Jul 29, 2004 14:45:03 GMT -5
After a mighty long read of the thread, I have to say there's been some nice ideas coming up. I'm sorry I wasn't around when the main discussion was going strong. The idea was to sepreate the Necrons from our reality and trap them in a pocket reality from which there was no escape. I have to ask, why? We know that the OO had the power to destroy Tomb Worlds, why not just blow the Tomb to pieces rather then develop a highly complicated technology that required constant maintenance to get the same effect (with the added risk of them escaping.) Now I really like the idea, so I'll try to give myself a few possible answers. - The Old Ones didn't know how hard it was going to be to maintain, this was just the trial run to see how it worked. After they had 'captured' the system, they saw how inefficient it was and discarded the idea (but kept this one going for study.)
- The Necron Tomb in question was a particularly powerful one, and this was seen as a less costly (in terms of life, military resources) method of defeating them. This, of course, depends on how the system is sent to the other dimension; can they do it from a distance, or must they fight their way into the system to perform it?
How does this affect time within the dimension? Has time frozen, or have the Necrons within been stuck with no-where to go for 60 million years? Also, how big was the area of space that was initially captured (just one system?), and how did this area of space split up when the proto-dimension shattered? Did the Tomb World go into one dimension, and it's sun another? One thought that's come to me is this: the Necrons have had 60 million years to study this dimension (unless time flows differently), so there remains the possibility that they have worked out how it works. Rather then undoing the effect and returning them to the original universe, could they not try to stabilise the effect? Once that is done, they could then develop a method of sending ships from their own dimension to the Materium, and back again. This would, essentially, create the ultimate hidden base for the Necrons; we know that they're all about raiding at the moment, hiding their bases and conducting small operations. Once in a while the Imperium finds a Tomb, and attempts to destroy it. Wouldn't having their base in a seperate reality be the ultimate defence? The Necrons would be able to strike at the Imperium with little to no threat of retaliation. I'm not saying that they should be at this point yet, but possibly that is the goal of the Necrons within the dimension. They're trying to find a way to 'control' it before it collapses back into the Materium. Their imprisonment could work out to be a great advantage.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 29, 2004 23:30:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry I wasn't around when the main discussion was going strong. It is, however, interesting to have more than three opinions being posted on the thread in any regular fashion. Let's hope that you're not a one-post wonder! I have to ask, why? We know that the OO had the power to destroy Tomb Worlds, why not just blow the Tomb to pieces rather then develop a highly complicated technology that required constant maintenance to get the same effect (with the added risk of them escaping.) First off, the technology is not envisioned as requiring constant maintenance. Rather that's just how it ended up. The idea was to separate the Tomb world from the matterium and cast them into the Realms of Chaos and not only destroy their form but also their essence... (Reminds me of the Harlequin poem from Shadowrun which I think is fantastic.) The Old Ones didn't know how hard it was going to be to maintain, this was just the trial run to see how it worked. It was a trial run. The 'field generators' were prototypes for smaller or at least mobile versions... After they had perfected the technology all they would need to do is send the seven ships out turn on the field generator and - whammo! - one tomb world disappears without destroying an entire system... Admittedly it's going to be play hockey with the gravity in the system... Also one might consider the point in the War in Heaven at which this experiment occurred... perhaps the Old Ones just didn't have the resources to continue to prosecute a war in the traditional 40k manner: "Hit it with a hammer and if that doesn't break it then keep on hitting it with a hammer until it does, lo' unto a million hits or more..." The Necron Tomb in question was a particularly powerful one... This is, of course, not preclusive of the above concept... How does this affect time within the dimension? Technically the fragments are "hovering" in the warp; distinct. Given that the warp is subject to vagaries of time one would imagine that so would the proto-dimensional fragments and, since they are unified though spatially disparate (?) it would be interesting to speculate that the proto-dimension itself is subject to different flows of time at different points within that which is contained within the proto-dimension... Now how is that for an unwieldy sentence. I'm going to leave it at that for no reason other than, well, laziness... Has time frozen, or have the Necrons within been stuck with no-where to go for 60 million years? Time has not been frozen. And remember that Necrons have been stuck in more 'normal' Tomb Worlds for 60 Ma... Also, how big was the area of space that was initially captured (just one system?)... One planet alone... One thought that's come to me is this: the Necrons have had 60 million years to study this dimension (unless time flows differently), so there remains the possibility that they have worked out how it works. Yet ultimately it is predicated upon 'warp tech'...
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