|
Post by Kage2020 on May 21, 2004 18:00:36 GMT -5
This is why i am advocating that the "reality" of the tetrascape is not that far off from our own. There may be some minor differences, but the reality that the Old Ones created would have pretty much mirrored our own. Then one runs into trouble of how they can be kept there... Any changes to the laws would perhaps have occured when the tetrascape 9proto reality) fractured. It is merely an easy mechanic by which the technology of the C'tan/Necrons could be invalidated. If this occurs after fragmentation then... well... you get into the question above. Kage I know that you are not overly fond of the bubble analogy for these different realities... No, that's incorrect. I'm against using it as an explanatory mechanism for warp travel such that a body translating to the warp maintains an inherent 'resistance' - a natural Geller Field - which resists the warp... Erm... But now that I think about it, that's what I was operating on anyway. Bugger. So I'm not against it at all. I seem to recall that I was against it for another reason, however, but thankfully I haven't seen it in a while so I've now put it out of my mind! It is my theory that the things that humanit calls deamons might actually be beings from another reality, that has intersected our own. Erm... that's really not at all original or, indeed, surprising. That is what daemons are in the first place, even in GW's universe... Well, kind of. The reality that they come from is not representative of the warp as a whole, it is just another reality among many out there. And that's how I've always described it, i.e. "Otherworlds". In this case, I view the contact point as the area that became the eye of terror.[/.quote][ For me it's a tad more complex than that, but there we go... essentially the same, just a few more additional bits about consensual reality, etc. ...but I think we need to get very specific on defining what these terms mean. Well, they're not Tetrascapes as defined in the Eisenhorn books. When they're found they might be called Tetrascapes as the closest comparable phenomenon, even though they are not. I'm more tempted to view them as a form of expanded 'Horizon Gate', i.e. potentially linked to a common reality... One simple way of looking at it might be to ask the question: If you're inside the fragment, then what happens when you reach the 'edge' of that fragment? Do you translate instantaneously to the boundary of one of the spatially related fragments (i.e. they are correspondent) or would you be able to push yourself out? That might help without trying to too quickly define concepts in the terms that you favour! Kage
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on May 21, 2004 18:24:42 GMT -5
Then one runs into trouble of how they can be kept there... Well if you were to seperate a small portion of our own reality or create a transiton point into this other reality and then break it off from ours (cast it off nto the warp) they would be trapped in a small proto-dimension which is now seperate from our own. I don't think that they would be able to transition back to the materium without some understanding of how to traverse the intervening warp space. As to how a portal could be created to create this new reality, it could perhaps have been done via an artificial black hole, to capture the fleet in the event horizon. If you consider it as a worm hole, there are two theoretical outlets for the worm hole. It could open up somewhere else in our own universe or open up in another universe. If they tied the other end to the proto-dimension, this would be how they trapperd them there. By then cutting power to the black hole, it would collapse cutting off access back to our reality....this is of course a highly simplified explanation, but it shows how they could be barred from our reality and trapped in the proto dimension. No, that's incorrect. I'm against using it as an explanatory mechanism for warp travel such that a body translating to the warp maintains an inherent 'resistance' - a natural Geller Field - which resists the warp... Erm... But now that I think about it, that's what I was operating on anyway. Bugger. So I'm not against it at all. I seem to recall that I was against it for another reason, however, but thankfully I haven't seen it in a while so I've now put it out of my mind! By natural geller field, I was trying to point out that the consciousness of a person will try to enforce its reality on the space around it. If you look at a deamon, it is able to exist in our reality by either anchoring itself to something in our reality or by trying to exert its reality over our own. Our reality pushes back trying to force the deamon out. this is why deamons have to test for instability. In the warp, we still try to enforce our reality on the space around us, but there is not the laws of another reality pushing back. this is why the warp can be shaped to the whims of those with a strong enough will (ex. the shaping of the deamon worlds). Well, they're not Tetrascapes as defined in the Eisenhorn books. When they're found they might be called Tetrascapes as the closest comparable phenomenon, even though they are not. I'm more tempted to view them as a form of expanded 'Horizon Gate', i.e. potentially linked to a common reality... One simple way of looking at it might be to ask the question: If you're inside the fragment, then what happens when you reach the 'edge' of that fragment? Do you translate instantaneously to the boundary of one of the spatially related fragments (i.e. they are correspondent) or would you be able to push yourself out? Theoretically space is curved, so that if you travel in one direction long enough, you will wind up back in the spot you strated from. Without knowledge of the warp or how to penetrate it, you would still be locked inside the proto-dimension. We are also going on the assumption that the proto dimension is in a static size. Who is to say that it is not expanding like our own universe. Perhaps that is what originally led to the fracture of the proto dimension (the Old Ones did not account for expansion).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on May 22, 2004 14:50:02 GMT -5
...(cast it off nto the warp) they would be trapped in a small proto-dimension which is now seperate from our own... This is what I'm not keen on. I would not want the reality to be cast adrift in the warp, not by a long shot. Rather the 'reality' of the 'Tetrascapes' was "called forth" from those in the Otherworlds, buckling what for me is the upper manifold. The reality remains bound to the Anargo sector but is in no way "cast adrift on the warp"... Of course, 'cast adrift' might be a useful term to use when you end up describing it in colour text (i.e. fiction pieces). This would be the 'promity' of the 'Tetrascape' to the matterium, a feature which increases the 'bulge' in the manifold space and, therefore, alterating the flow characteristics around the Heart of Anargo. I don't think that they would be able to transition back to the materium without some understanding of how to traverse the intervening warp space. Again despite the fact that this would be the easy solution, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to say a 'no' on the complete separation of the 'Tetrascape' from the matterium. Perhaps we should move away from the idea that the Necrons are specifically trapped? Rather going back to the idea that while that might have been the original idea, combined with the stasis phenomenon (i.e. the Necrons going into stasis) as a means of creating a situation where the Necrons have not been 'distrubed'. After all, I doubt that they merely set their alarm clocks for "60 MY from... now!"... By natural geller field, I was trying to point out that the consciousness of a person will try to enforce its reality on the space around it. A reasonable explanation and one that I'm not averse to, since it is how I've seen it. Again I seem to remember collateral explanation being the thing that I was uncomfortable with... However, enough of that once again. We are also going on the assumption that the proto dimension is in a static size. Who is to say that it is not expanding like our own universe. That's actually quite an interesting idea. Kage
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on May 24, 2004 9:08:58 GMT -5
This is what I'm not keen on. I would not want the reality to be cast adrift in the warp, not by a long shot. Rather the 'reality' of the 'Tetrascapes' was "called forth" from those in the Otherworlds, buckling what for me is the upper manifold. The reality remains bound to the Anargo sector but is in no way "cast adrift on the warp"... Could it perhaps still be tied to our reality by the "thread" of the singularity created by the artificail black hole? this would be akin to a mooring line keeping it from spinning off back into upper manifold space. This morring might tie one of the larger "stones to our reality, while the other stones although fractured are still tied together through similar moorings. This would still allow them to move and change distance (proximity is a better word) from our own reality, but with relation to a main chunk of the proto dimension still tethered to our reality. Again despite the fact that this would be the easy solution, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to say a 'no' on the complete separation of the 'Tetrascape' from the matterium. Perhaps we should move away from the idea that the Necrons are specifically trapped? Rather going back to the idea that while that might have been the original idea, combined with the stasis phenomenon (i.e. the Necrons going into stasis) as a means of creating a situation where the Necrons have not been 'distrubed'. After all, I doubt that they merely set their alarm clocks for "60 MY from... now!"... Do we perhaps want to have a case where one of the stones is moving closer to our own reality and may perhaps at sometime interface with it (crash into it). Perhaps it is like two closely orbiting stars in a binary system where they share stellar matter or one star pulls stellar matter from the other. The fragment of the proto reality might be being pulled closer in towards our reality or may be "deflating" as it is our reality slowly draws it into ours.....This could be why there have been some major disturbances as the two realities try to stabilize or find an equilibrium between them.
|
|
|
Post by TheGlyphstone on May 24, 2004 15:26:30 GMT -5
Do we perhaps want to have a case where one of the stones is moving closer to our own reality and may perhaps at sometime interface with it (crash into it). Perhaps it is like two closely orbiting stars in a binary system where they share stellar matter or one star pulls stellar matter from the other. The fragment of the proto reality might be being pulled closer in towards our reality or may be "deflating" as it is our reality slowly draws it into ours.....This could be why there have been some major disturbances as the two realities try to stabilize or find an equilibrium between them. This sounds a lot like the Eye of Terror in a way. Possibly a reason for the Imperials trying to stop it, if they find out?
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on May 24, 2004 16:55:25 GMT -5
This sounds a lot like the Eye of Terror in a way. Possibly a reason for the Imperials trying to stop it, if they find out? On a smaller scale perhaps. It is one of the theories behind the Sargassos Sub-Sector being quaranteened. A faction of the Adeptus mechanicus feels that there is the potential for the developement of another eye of terror. Since they do not have have hard data on the creation of the eye, they are monitoring the phenomenon for signs that it may be headed in that direction. there are of course other factions of the AM and other Imperial organizations that feel this idea is completely rediculous. The theories abound, but hard data needs to be gathered. They need men on the ground to check it out. that is where the rogue traders and survey teams come in.....at least I think that is where we are heading with this idea.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on May 24, 2004 17:52:31 GMT -5
This would be the theory that I'm working on. The 'stones' are bulges in the manifold spaces (as it were; we're also going to have to find the closest analog to this in the canonical material since most people are not keen on introducing new concepts to the 40k universe! ) so binding them to the matterium is an obvious thing to do. Indeed, this is the point of the 'artefact' argument, above. A physical locus... how we represent this 'artefact' is up for grabs. While it might be dubious to use 'pylons' are 'pyramids' or whatever, it is still a possibility... Heck, you could use quantum singularities maintained through negative energy projection based on the Cor... Effect. I forget the name, but read about it the other day in Illium by Dan Simmons! Of course, since it was the Old Ones that created 'summoned' the reality forth and 'tethered' it to the matterium, even though it subsequently fractured, have a less 'physics' explanation and more 'occult' one would seem appropriate. That is an altered version of the original concept, which was that 'turning off' the artefacts would stop the phenomenon. Here it would seem that turning them off would release the 'tethers' and therefore slap the Tetrascape back into the warp/Otherworlds. Of course, with suitable description any of these actions could be taken. Kage
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jun 1, 2004 7:30:18 GMT -5
I'm trying to locate my copy of the Songs of Earth & Power. Greg Bear gave an excellent description of the construction of relities using the Technomajic system of the Wych. It may help to put this into the proper context. One thing that we may want to consider is perhaps the tether can't be realeased....or the amount of energy needed to release it from our reality would pretty excessive or cataclismic. The "tether" can be though of in two ways. 1. Imagine two sheets of glass with a thin film of water in between them. The surface tension of the water makes it difficult to seprate the to sheets of glass. You are able to slide them side ways to seperate them, but trying to break the connection by just pulling them appart is difficult. This is the attractive force between the two realities down the conduit or the sigulairty. If it is a singularity acting as the tether, the amount of energy needed to break it would be enormous. 2. then there is the side effects of breaking the tether. Have you ever seen a high tension cable snap. The amount of potential energy transferred into kenetic energy when it happens it truly frightening to witness. Imagine the same thing happening if the tether was broken. It could perhaps be sort of like an inadvertant doomsday switch. The reason that the Old Ones didn't cut the singularity is because the catostrophic effects that could happen if the severed half came crashing down against our own reality.....It could perhaps cause a rupture in the very fabric of our reality. This of course opens an interesting thought that the fractured pieces may have made their own tethers to our reality and to eachother. These are of course more tenuos (not as stable as the singuarity that ties the main fragment) but they are instead connected in some other fashion to the outside or interface of our reality instead of coming through to the inside as the singularity does. These differences could be like the different types of chemical bonds that can exist between atoms. The singularity tether could be like an ionic bond while the "threads" connecting the fractured realities would be closer to covalent bonds. The interaction between these bond are what leads to the distortions in the Heart of the Sector. The following link gives a brief descripton of the different types of chemical bonds for those that may not be familiar with them. www.scientia.org/cadonline/Chemistry/bonding/chembond.ASP
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jun 1, 2004 9:27:13 GMT -5
I'd like to read them. Surprised that you hadn't Destecado'd and taken a look on the 'Net. Remember that oodles of pages ago I suggested that it would be useful for the 'narrative' of the ASP if a 'stone' could be turned off, as it were. The exact nature of this event is up for grabs and could be anything as 'simple' as a bit of warp magic, or something far more esoteric in terms of projection of negative energy, etc... If nothing else people will be able to look back to the ASP and wonder at the analogies that we came up with to explain different features to ourselves... I'm intrigued at your 'high tension cable' analogy (and, yes, while I haven't seen one I can imagine the energy involved). That would be something I see as having definite potential to the long-term narrative process of ASP. I wouldn't go as far as a 'doomsday switch', but rather concentrate more on the freed cable... the unpredictable effects of that dimensional flagellant is something that at the time they might not have been willing to risk. Although that does depend on whether the 'fractured realities' might be thought of as distinct or as continuous despite spatial divergence as perceived in the matterium... I'd go for hydrogen bonds or perhaps Van der Waals... A quick synopsis... We seem firm that during the War in Heaven the Old Ones attempted an act of psychic engineering in which they 'summoned' a dimensional reality, attempting to 'bind' it to a specific point in the material universe. (This is, in essence, a pocket dimension, but with the 40k twist of the 'alien' rather than a 'pinching off' of a volume of normal space.) The preference seems to be that the goal was to create a prison for the Necron Tombworld at the Heart of Anargo, since I'm not keen on the fleet concept. The mechanics by which this was hoped to achieve is still somewhat in flux, though I cannot help but think of vritual footprints of networked radio dishes (for example). The entirely 'pie in the sky' description being that they create a 'virtual footprint' for the tether by using multiple tethers. Now something seems to have gone wrong, and the 'vritual tether' was destroyed (probably with or partially because, or whatever, of material universe phenomenon). Perhaps the individual 'tethers' latched onto something else? That in their whipping around the created the smaller fragments that we've mentioned before or, perhaps, they are in fact the same tether manifesting at disparate points in the matterium? That the tether is just a hopelessly tangled knot in points of dimensional crossover? Erm, I'm going to shut up now... Kage
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Jun 3, 2004 22:26:28 GMT -5
Keep in mind that we want this to be a temporary prison, in a way. At some point, we'll want the Necrons to find a way out, becoming the new threat in the Anargo sector. If there's no way out of their prison, I don't really see the point of them being there in the first place, plot-wise.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jun 4, 2004 4:39:01 GMT -5
I understand that for our purposes it is supose to be temporary, but in the case of the Old Ones, they were looking for a permanent solution to the Necron question. The singularity is still attached to the proto dimension. It may be possible for the Necrons to figure out a way to navigate the singularity back to our own.
Rather than being a device that creates a black hole, I see the Old Ones device as creating a naked singularity (no event horizon). This is a region with infinite density and curvature. It is beleived that this is how the universe existed at the time of the big bang.
From this, they were able to create the proto dimension. Rather than nipping off a piece of our own reality to creat it, the singularity actted more like an attractor to upper manifold space. The process could best be though of like a cosmic lightning bolt.
Lightning does not always strike the ground. If the conditions are right, a charge rises up from the ground to meet the lightning as it is heading towards the ground. Similarly, I think this device may have created a singularity that acted like the lightning bolt, but which attracted particles from upper manifold space creating. this new influx of energy created a minibig bang where the particles from the uppermanifold interacted with the singularity. This was the creation of the proto diemnsion.
I'm still trying to locate my copy of Songs of Earth & Power so we can give it a more technomantic feel, but how does that serve as a basic explanation of how the proto dimension was formed?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jun 4, 2004 6:17:31 GMT -5
Keep in mind that we want this to be a temporary prison, in a way. At some point, we'll want the Necrons to find a way out, becoming the new threat in the Anargo sector. That is why I've always been keen on the ability to 'turn off' the prison, as it were... Not sure about this whole navigating through singularities stuff! Of course, one might approach this subject differently: Do we want the 'stones' to persist when the Necrons are 'released' (however this was done)? Kage
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jun 4, 2004 6:20:51 GMT -5
I'm not saying that they would be navigating ships through the singularity. The manner in which they are able to teleport over long distances has never really been described well. It is possible that they may be able to transport themselves in this manner back through the singularity or send a signal through the singularity to other Necrons perhaps.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Jun 7, 2004 10:34:42 GMT -5
In reading through the different sections of the Songs of Earth & Power to find the section on creation of realities such as the Realm, I find myself being drawn back nto the story. I definitely need to reread this entire book. The following passage though small may carry alot of weight in our dicussion of creating proto dimensions. Universes may co-exist in the same wave-train, operating as the harmonics of a complex of frequencies. Analoguos to the groove in a phonograph record, which is easily distinguished into horns and strings by the practiced ear - horns one universe, strings another. We may exist in all universes, but "hear" only one because of our limitations, the value of our desires, our practical, physicalneeds. All is vibration, with nothing nothing vibrating across no distance whatsoever. All is music. A universe, a world, is just one long difficult song. the difference between worlds is the difference between songs. There is also the concept of the null, the nothingness from which realities can be woven. This might be analguous to upper manifold space or the warp itself. Creating a reality or a proto dimension is akin to stringing together notes as in a song or concherto. We can perhaps draw out this analogy a little, so that it encompasses string theory. As musical notes can be said to be the representaition of the excitation modes of musical instruments, in string theory, the elementary particles we observe in particle accelerators could be thought of as the "musical notes" or excitation modes of elementary strings. String theory is a theory of quantum gravity. It can therefore be related to black holes, singularities and quantum cosmology. The proto dimension may be woven out of the strings. When the realities fractured, it could be said that the reality is unraveling. It is not exactly what the book describes, it is after all a book of fantasy, but based on my readings of it, this may work as a good scentific explination of the fantasy model. For a better understanding of string theory click on the folling link.superstringtheory.com/
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jun 10, 2004 12:45:24 GMT -5
Hmmn... Again, I'm less keen on the idea that the 'protodimension' was created, rather than 'summoned'... Kage
|
|