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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 16, 2004 15:55:09 GMT -5
This is turning into a thread on the Sargasso Gulf, which was not intended... Interesting nonetheless. Erm, there are no 'stellar nurseries' in the Anargo sector, BTW... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 16, 2004 16:11:30 GMT -5
Actually it isn't turning into a thread about the Sargasso Gulf. I was mearly answering the questions you raised about that anomaly. Also the mathmatics I provided were based on the assumption of something like a stellar nursery in the Heart of the Sector (not in the Sargasso Gulf).
The mathmatics work to provide you with the turbulant space required there. It again was in response to your statement that the white hole was going too far. Since you did not also state that a stellar nursery was out of the question, I went about collecting corroborating documentation to back up its existance scientifically.
If you do not wish a stellar nursery at the center of the sector, that is fine, but please indicate that the idea shold be disregarded so that time does not have to be wasted gathering data to back up its existance. That said, what do you want to see at the center of the Sector. Is a black hole out of the question as well?
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Post by CELS on Apr 16, 2004 17:09:19 GMT -5
Perhaps this would be a good time to reply to my post?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 16, 2004 19:04:11 GMT -5
Too little time to reply, so brief replies only. I don't know how they travel from one planet to another, but I guess they don't use warp travel, and you say that they wouldn't be phased by warp storms, so... I'm out of ideas to stop them. One simple answer presents itself: sorcery on a monumental scale. An inversion of the Great Project of the C'tan, but right back at them... And again we return to the comparison with a magical multi-round about, which does little to enlighten me 'Fluff' defines that safely navigating through just one warp storm is difficult enough. Now try and navigate through a number of them in close proximity; alterations to 'warp flows' etc. is going to make it even harder. That is all. I say we should stick with the latest fluff and try to incorporate the old stuff, rather than doing it the other way around. <grin> There are problems to that insofar that the "latest 'fluff'" isn't necessarily cohesive. But fairy snuff. You posted what they are, but not what causes them... Is that where we have to look backwards...? Also the mathmatics I provided were based on the assumption of something like a stellar nursery in the Heart of the Sector (not in the Sargasso Gulf). There are nebulae all over the sector, remembering that there are some 21,000 astronomical objects in that sector ranging from your normal stars to supernova shells, the odd black hole (actually four, but that's one of those things that I will gladly ignore), etc. Indeed, if you check out the Artwork board there's a 3d rotating map thingie (somewhere) that shows the locations of the varous subsectors and the major astronomical features (including black holes and nebulae). It is for this reason that the "nebulae=warp storm" isn't going to work. Of course, the generation system which created the various nebulae might have over-estimated their presence since it was created for much smaller projects... If you do not wish a stellar nursery at the center of the sector... Nope, I'm not entirely sure that would be appropriate. But one of the points of this thread was to try and create a reasonable, erm, reason why the middle of the subsector is 'empty'. Just putting a Necron tombworld there is not sufficient, despite the whole "don't go knocking on their door" approach. The concepts of creating a system by which trans-sector travel would be limited was deemed interesting, hence the multi-nodal warp storm concept. That said, what do you want to see at the center of the Sector. As above, that was kind of the point of the thread... To identify some phenomenon that could make it 'difficult' to be there... and without significant expansion of the Sargasso Gulf! Is a black hole out of the question as well? Yes, it is. As mentioned above there are four blackholes in the Anargo sector created through the random generation process (itself a derivative of GURPS Space). Sounds a tad too high to me so I've always kind of assumed that the 'largest' black hole is the one that is to be kept around (and even that might be pushing things... but whatever). At the last count this was not located at the heart of the subsector... Of course, it could be moved but in so doing it would kind of defeat the whole initial structure of the project. Also, if you move that then what is to stop people changing things willy-nilly? The idea was to work with a random structure and create something out of it, rather than imposing a structure and randomising things around it. Kage[
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Post by Destecado on Apr 17, 2004 8:49:24 GMT -5
It is for this reason that the "nebulae=warp storm" isn't going to work. Of course, the generation system which created the various nebulae might have over-estimated their presence since it was created for much smaller projects... Nope, I'm not entirely sure that would be appropriate. But one of the points of this thread was to try and create a reasonable, erm, reason why the middle of the subsector is 'empty'. Just putting a Necron tombworld there is not sufficient, despite the whole "don't go knocking on their door" approach. The concepts of creating a system by which trans-sector travel would be limited was deemed interesting, hence the multi-nodal warp storm concept. As above, that was kind of the point of the thread... To identify some phenomenon that could make it 'difficult' to be there... and without significant expansion of the Sargasso Gulf! Again I feel the there is an accusation some where in that statement. I was not trying to expand the gulf. I was as you asked trying to find cohesion and an explanation for its existance. The gulf is an infantesimal anomaly created by the greater turmoil within the Heart of the Sector. It goes back to CELS analogy of the Antartic storms that sometimes make their way up to Australia. The Sargasso Gulf is just an effect, the cause of it lies within the Heart of Sector. Yes, it is. As mentioned above there are four blackholes in the Anargo sector created through the random generation process (itself a derivative of GURPS Space). Sounds a tad too high to me so I've always kind of assumed that the 'largest' black hole is the one that is to be kept around (and even that might be pushing things... but whatever). At the last count this was not located at the heart of the subsector... Of course, it could be moved but in so doing it would kind of defeat the whole initial structure of the project. Also, if you move that then what is to stop people changing things willy-nilly? The idea was to work with a random structure and create something out of it, rather than imposing a structure and randomising things around it. I don't understand how it would defeat the whole structure of the project, but forget that for a moment. Based on your statement what you are saying is that rather than changing your starting premise, which could have flaws within it, you would rather waste considerable time trying to prove the flaws don't exist rather than making changes to the starting premise and moving forward? I understand that you wish to keep the spirit of the randomly generated structure as much as possible, but sometimes exceptions need to be made. As the coordinator of the project you have it within your power to do so. If you don't feel comfortable with the descision, then put it up to a vote. These comments are als not intended to make you choose the Stellar Nursery idea. I will try to find mathmatics to find other stellar of astrophysical phenomina that could explain the eruption of the warp storms in the center of the Sector. The only thing that I would ask is a little more of an idea of what you are looking for, otherwise it is like shoot in the dark which quickly becomes frustrating and tedious.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 17, 2004 12:01:01 GMT -5
Again I feel the there is an accusation some where in that statement. Stop being paranoia, Destecado. I didn't mean it as such and don't think that I implied it. But if you feel that I did then my apologies. The Sargasso Gulf is just an effect, the cause of it lies within the Heart of Sector. Perhaps the solution is to tie them in a different manner to the 'Heart of Anargo'. The above 'multi-nodal warp storm' is predicated upon an internal concept, i.e. the storms that surround each node create their own storm... That seems to have a bit of glitchiness about it, so what about extending it to larger-scale phenomenon. Instead of generating they act as break-waters, taking advantage of an established current. (Again, the presupposition here is that the fields are there to disrupt travel and 'protect' what's inside by generating the warp tides, currents, rips and, yes, even 'storms'.) We already have the Pendulum tide variably moving from the 'wily ork empire' to Castellan, so why not take advantage of this and extend it? Perhaps there is a larger current coming into the Anargo sector either from an adjacent sector or, perhaps, from further afield. Maybe it is drawn partially as a result of the 'artefacts' (which increasingly seems to be the case) but also the presence of the black hole? The un-named 'current' is incredibly strong, allow for relatively rapid transit by Navigated travel (wouldn't want to get on it without that) over a large distance but Anargo are the 'rapids' that prevent further travel. As a result you've got to hop out of your boat and circumvent the problem, else risk being thrown off course...? The 'artefacts' are rocks with the whole white water imagery. (A suitable analogy to aid visualisation? It's definitely better than the magic-roundabout one which made perfect sense to me... but I guess that's saying something! ) I don't understand how it would defeat the whole structure of the project, but forget that for a moment. The original premise had a number of reasons behind it, not least of which was to stimulate discussion on a flagging Portent. So in some regards the design was much harder than it might otherwise be... But that design was simple: randomly generate the entire astronomical set up of the sector and then begin to 'colonise' it. Subsectors would be located by the greatest density of G- and F-type stars creating Sol-like conditions... Unfortunately in the rush to get things done, information on sectors was demanded and, as such, they took the form that they have. Of course, it would be much simpler to abandon that rather large database of stars and create an amorphous blob. The stars in each subsector would be erased and, perhaps, only their position retained. If someone wants to generate a system then they just do it from scratch... Not too much of a problem, except that you would find that a lot of the worlds would end up looking the same (if anyone generated the statistics anyway and just didn't choose what they wanted). The worlds already generated would remain, of course, since that's a small number... You then locate them wherever you want, put whatever astronomical features that you want in defined positions and leave the rest blank. Of course, you could always just map these new "determined" subsectors over the previously randomly-generated data-set. You'd leave Castellan around the 0,60,0 area since that's already fairly defined with information on Cruciatine... But the others? Wherever you wanted them. The sector would then be defined almost purely by concept rather than the interaction of concept with random data. Abandoning the original data set would mean a loss of a not-insubstantial amount of time creating the data and formatting it (more so the latter than the former; grrr...) and would create a pro-GW creation process leading to the inherent bias that this creates. But then again the above moderates this situation. With moved subsectors there would be less impetus to create explanatory mechanisms for the 'Heart of the Sector' concept, etc. etc. Maybe that's not a bad thing, though. If you don't feel comfortable with the descision, then put it up to a vote. It's okay. You don't have to tell me how to run a project... But just for sh*ts and giggles I'll talk about it in PPL... These comments are als not intended to make you choose the Stellar Nursery idea. Good... I'm not going to. The only thing that I would ask is a little more of an idea of what you are looking for, otherwise it is like shoot in the dark which quickly becomes frustrating and tedious. I opened it up for discussion for the creation of ideas. I have a concept of the effect and opened it up for discussion, that is all. Kage
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Post by CELS on Apr 17, 2004 12:16:47 GMT -5
I have to agree with Kage, Destecado. You tend to be somewhat paranoid and defensive when others turn down your suggestions. Please, don't take it too hard. We're still very glad to have you here, but that doesn't mean agree 100% with everything you suggest As for changing the physical data of the Anargo sector, that is something we've agreed to avoid as far as possible, so there's no need to vote. As Kage says, it's the original premise of the project. Of course, there will be exceptions, such as the fact that we change the type of the stars sometimes (rarely though), since the subsectors seem to have landed in areas with lots and lots of cold M-stars, which causes big problems from time to time. That said, we've agreed that changing physical data should always be a last way out, so... there it is. If it helps, I was just as frustrated as yourself at first, but I learned that surpressing frustration and anger is an important part of this project ;D This was completely off-T, but I felt it needed to be said. Stay jolly. PS: Destecado, I don't recall that being my analogy. I fear that once again, you give me too much credit
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 17, 2004 12:32:11 GMT -5
It's okay... I felt that it was similarly cliched, although that has not stopped people using things before. (*cough* GW) While novel, the stellar nursery idea is novel but would have created a situation by which warp travel all over would have been problematic. And I'm surprised at you, Destecado. Abandoning a thread for such a reason... Ah well, I'll just close it since it lacks interest... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 17, 2004 13:13:27 GMT -5
Alright, do you have an idea which race you would have wanted to create the artifact? What are your thoughts on its function. Is it a weapon or is it a means to keep something locked away. Could it have been built for something else entirely and malfunctioned? An intersting image that comes to mind is that of a tornado that turns back in on itself or skips off the ground and then comes back down.
Could this have been an attempt to make an artificial webway tunnel to link it to the webway in the area or to make a safe conduit through the warp similar to the webway. Maybe during the experiment the protal or artificial tunnel rebounded and fell back in on itself.
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Post by CELS on Apr 17, 2004 13:25:27 GMT -5
Do any of you know how Necrons travel through space? I don't think that was clarified, and I sure don't know. If they are using some method other than warp travel, then any artifacts that mess with the warp are going to be useless. Except of course, if the artifacts are intended to keep other races away from the centre, to keep them from awakening the Necrons.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 17, 2004 14:21:30 GMT -5
Alright, do you have an idea which race you would have wanted to create the artifact? Remembering that it was just an idea. I'm not fussed. But in it's current configuration and with the current structure of the project, something needs to be done with the centre of the sector... Creating a situation where trans-sector travel is difficult (the white water rapid analogy) just seems intriguing, especially if linked into a wider phenomenon which would be an inversion of the suggestion that CELS remembered, above (i.e. that Anargo was a hub of transport; it's the same, just different! )... What are your thoughts on its function. With the above premise the artefact s (multiple; hence reference to 'multi-nodal' storm above) act as 'stones in the river', they project a field which disrupts the natural flow of the "big current", creating a complex sequence of interference pattern, both constructive and destructive. E.g. semi-series of becalmed areas, others that are horrendously constructed and reinforced warp storms, etc. (Nicking the Sargasso Gulf idea, partially, but perhaps integrating it in some form...?) But, again, it was just an idea. It would seem to be discarded if we change the basis of the subsector locations... But if they remain where they are then something really does need to be done with the 'Heart of Anargo'. Is it a weapon or is it a means to keep something locked away. The idea was to take extreme measures such that the tombworld would remain undisturbed. Self-evidently extreme measures. Perhaps too extreme. Though that would depend on the extent of the phenomenon (I imagined quite restricted, but with degrading effects extending at a distance)... Could it have been built for something else entirely and malfunctioned? With the above concept, not really. But that doesn't mean that the concept could not change! Furthermore, if there is ambiguity to the function then it would really be just a copy out and conformance to "GW Syndrome"... An intersting image that comes to mind is that of a tornado that turns back in on itself or skips off the ground and then comes back down. I've seen it happen on television, but could you extrapolate upon this some more? I'm kind of hung up on the white water image at the moment! Could this have been an attempt to make an artificial webway tunnel to link it to the webway in the area or to make a safe conduit through the warp similar to the webway. Possible. The only problem is that there is some evidence that the eldar can create Webway portals. It's a finely arguable point based upon old and, well, debateable 'fluff' but there we go... Maybe during the experiment the protal or artificial tunnel rebounded and fell back in on itself. That actually has some rather interesting potentials for other things and I shall definitely keep it in mind (i.e. how you create a Webway portal; GURPS has "Gate Magic", but it's not that interesting in reference to the Webway!)... Do any of you know how Necrons travel through space? Not entirely sure. There is some idea that they use 'space folding' to travel large distances but otherwise high- g rating (grav propulsion) seems the way... It's one of those other reasons that I think that eldar use MGD ("magnetogravimetrically dynamic drives"; yeah, I can do Star Trek terminology as well! ) drive systems. I'm rather keen on the fact that quite a bit of their technology is inspired by 'memories' of the C'tan... but that's a minor little heresy of mine based upon the fact that so many of their technologies are externally the same while their functioning works upon (mostly) different principles. Except of course, if the artifacts are intended to keep other races away from the centre, to keep them from awakening the Necrons. That was the point, based upon your own comments about the 'negative' aspects of the single warp 'spiral'... Kage
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Post by CELS on Apr 18, 2004 4:25:54 GMT -5
Right, so on Portent, we've established that Necrons use FTL travel, and so don't give a damn about warp storms unless they actually break through to the physical realm, like the Maelstrom, Eye of Terror or The Storm of Emperor's Wrath (in Segmentum Ultima) and swallow their ships.
I think I get the idea of the magic roundabout then. You enter this storm, and you don't know where you'll come out, but it won't be where you wanted to. Right?
So will the existance of this tomb world be totally unknown to everyone? The Inquisition may have stumbled over some heretical prophets or ancient necron ruins that speak of it, but... no one will have ever seen this tombworld then. Right?
Just checking to see that I've got the idea behind this concept, and I'll leave it to you to explain how it works, since that's not my field of expertise.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 18, 2004 10:38:33 GMT -5
That was the basic idea, yes. Although less structured with the 'constructive' and 'destructive' interference patterns created: you can swirl around and get thrown out somewhere or some when, or more likely you get splatted. Again, though, it's just an idea dependent upon changes to the project structure. Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 10:33:14 GMT -5
Actually I have been considering the fact that we have 4 black holes in the Sector and a thought occured to me. What if this was the site of the death of one of the C'tan. We know that at one time there were more than the four C'tan thought to exist at this time.
The c'tan use to live on the stellar matter of stars. could it be that such eating would shorten the life of these stars and possibly cause some to go nova? If they then went nova, there is the possibility that they would form into black holes.
Of course this information is based on the idea, that we are not making changes to the random genrated system, but it might be necessary move the location of the black holes. The reason that it might be important to move them is due to their effects on surrounding systems.
It they were situated closer to the heart of the sector their warping effects might be what is causing the turmoil in the center. The natural flow would be disrupted by the 4 enormous gravity wells. The only problem I see with having them in that close proximity, is that as time progresses, they will be drawing eachother closer and closer.
Adding to the turmoil of the center sector could be some resonance of the dead C'tan left behind. It wouldn't be an actual presence, but more like a feeling you might get when walking into a creepy cemetary.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 19, 2004 10:44:48 GMT -5
Actually I have been considering the fact that we have 4 black holes in the Sector and a thought occured to me. What if this was the site of the death of one of the C'tan. We know that at one time there were more than the four C'tan thought to exist at this time. The number of supernova shells, black holes (already reduced to one ), etc., was one of the reasons that the Anargo sector became associated with a former conflict between the Old Ones/etc. and the C'tan/Necrons. The c'tan use to live on the stellar matter of stars. could it be that such eating would shorten the life of these stars and possibly cause some to go nova? That is the supposition of C'tan-philes that I've seen and while they are unsure on the specific mechanism (magnetic fields) it would seem reasonable. Although it is equally 'likely' that weapons caused said destruction. If they then went nova, there is the possibility that they would form into black holes. Oooh that lovely mass limit. 2.52 Sol isn't it? <Kage has hazy recollection created by chappie whose name is even harder to remember... Chandrash... something> It they were situated closer to the heart of the sector their warping effects might be what is causing the turmoil in the center. You really want this 'natural' thing don't you! Fairy snuff. The natural flow would be disrupted by the 4 enormous gravity wells. The only problem I see with having them in that close proximity, is that as time progresses, they will be drawing eachother closer and closer. Yep. Over the timescale we're talking about, however, would it be that significant a problem. Furthermore, it would be nice if the Necrons could actually get out or, indeed, someone get in. It's a novel solution, true, and something does need to create those lovely 'rocks' in the river, as it were... (Admittedly we've also got neutron stars, pulsars, etc.) Kage
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