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Post by Sojourner on Aug 2, 2004 3:52:51 GMT -5
How about that...I'd always thought Anargo was in Obscurus...
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Post by CELS on Aug 2, 2004 6:38:13 GMT -5
Well... as far as I know, it's been in the Ultima Segmentum since last year... My latest version, which is pretty much the best I can do in terms of precision and beauty. Here's the image I used to make the first one. Allow me to explain. I first decided that the left edge of the galaxy would be 50,000 LY from the galactic core, since the galaxy has a diameter of 100,000 LY. I then used this to establish the scale of the map, and then to draw a circle with a radius of 28,000 LY. As you know, Sol is 28,000 LY from the galactic core. I then plotted in all the spiral arms, based on all the maps and pictures I've downloaded from the galaxy. I have something like ten different sources, so I'm fairly sure that the spiral arms are somewhat correct. The orange circle has a radius of 45,000 LY, which Kage and I decided would be the range of the Astronomican. This was a compromise from the different sources in the fluff, which suggested the Astronomican had a range of 25K, 35K and 70K light years, in different texts. The average of these three numbers is 43K, so we made it 45K. I then decided I wanted Ultramar as far towards the galactic south-east as possible, to be consistent with earlier maps we've seen. This meant putting it on the edge of the Astronomican. We'd also decided that we wanted the Anargo sector fairly close to Ultramar, but still far enough from the frontier to make it relatively safe from giant insects from other galaxies, and whatever else hides beyond the light of the Astronomican. I fear that Kage will urge me to move the Anargo sector westward, but this will reduce the possibility of running into Tau (already a nigh non-existant possibility), Kroot and Demiurg considerably. Does anyone have any objections to the latest version? (The large, clean picture) Any suggestions to what else should be on the final galactic map for the Anargo Sector project? Remember, this map will probably be the first thing visitors see when they visit our future website.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 2, 2004 7:01:53 GMT -5
Ok i love the map/picture its great, the segmentum are fine 45kLY though, to small guys. The Imperium in all its vastness was conquered long before the astronomicon existed their is no reason to have ultramar on the edge of it. It was there long before the Emporer ascended the golden throne and took up his astropatic duties. It is perfectly feasible to have worlds beyond the astronomicon with beacons and just who said they have to use the beacon that is broadcast from terra, they were probably set up during the time of the emporer to hold his vast empire together. I also think that Kar Duniash would end up being out side of the Astronomicon according to that map to small Other than that i'm happy with it
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Post by CELS on Aug 2, 2004 7:21:17 GMT -5
Ok i love the map/picture its great, the segmentum are fine Cheers. Where would you have Ultramar then? On the eastern edge of the galaxy, far beyond the reach of the Astronomican? This would make navigated travel all but impossible, since they would have little to navigate by. To be frank, I'm not sure how Ultramar was colonised, but I thought the Emperor had always been a beacon for navigated travel. Remembering, of course, that Navigators didn't appear untill M22. I tried stressing this earlier, putting constructive criticism in italics, just to make sure people got the point. Apparently, I was not clear enough. I need constructive criticism. Suggestions. You're not happy with it? Fine. What do you suggest? Unless someone has a better idea, I see no reason to change the map. The same goes for the location of Sol, the location of Ultramar, the range of the Astronomican, whatever. Now... Kage has already expressed his views on beacons which extend the range of the Astronomican by 10k+ LY. "Daft", he calls it, and I have a feeling he'll not change his mind on this one. To be fair, I must admit he has a point. As for Kar Duniash, that could easily be put about 15,000 LY to the north-east of the Anargo sector. According to the Dark Millennia map, it is on the same spiral arm as the Anargo sector, so... no problem, really. It is perfectly feasible to have human worlds beyond the reach of the Astronomican, yes, but one must consider that it is very difficult to use navigated warp travel here, and one would thus rely greatly on the slow, short-range calculated jumps. I do not want Ultramar beyond the reach of the Astronomican, sorry. With the proper arguments though, I guess I could be swayed.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 2, 2004 8:04:20 GMT -5
Ultramar is not Macragge sorry . Macragge is located on the eastern fringe of the galaxy. And by fringe i will literally take that to mean edge. Ok reading further of my copy of Index Astartes III it says it is located deep in the galactic south east. There is also a map in IA III which shows the realm of ultramar right on the very edge of ultima in fact the paradise world of prandium which was part of ultramar is situated out side of ultima. This is a fairly recent publication into which a great deal of though has apparently been put I, I choose to take this as gospel you may not in which case I doubt we are going to be able to come to an agreement on this issue. Macragge seems to have been colonised in the GAoT but maintained itself throughout the age of strife, and ultramar didn't exist until the ultramarines annexed the 8 systems that comprise it I have no problem with that How the hell could the emperor be the beacon, he was all over the place, thats like putting a light house in a boat and casting it adrift There has to have been somthing set up that would allow ships to know where they were in the warp thats all i mean by beacons, they would be like little blinking lights letting you knoew there is an imperial world nearby. The Astropathic duct, mmm, not a beacon more like a short cut to the astronomicon's light, a ghost astronomicon if you like, an echo even, this would extend the range yes They were the emperors idea weren't they. You do realise that they might not even need the beacon for short jumps, the people who piloted ships before they came along would have been totally blind to the warp. And are you saying that navigators can see the astronomicon even if its behind them I have never yet come across a description of a navigator looking over his shoulder to check if the astronomicon was still there. Its not the eye of terror we have no idea of what the warp is like all the way out there it could be as placid as a mill pond without the countless multitudes of mankind to muddy the waters So thats how you repay me a dagger through the heart I thought i was helping sorry has the above mess cleared up any of my previous unconstructive critisism or are you even more confused by my inane ramblings And should kage disagree with me i say this sir you are a cad and i shall meet you on the field at dawn with pistols
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Post by Tynesh on Aug 3, 2004 3:02:51 GMT -5
"i say this sir you are a cad and i shall meet you on the field at dawn with pistols" #BLAM#
...one dead dazo then;)
CELS, I am mightly impressed with the work that you have done on this chart.
With respects to the Astronomican - The Macharian Crusade went to the galactic west where the 'light of the Astronomican grows dim'. This suggests to me that the beacon does not stop at 45k ly but may be picked up at distances beyond. Of course intevening cosmic 'terrain' may effect the intensity of the beacon. For example being to the north of the EoT would mean the beacon effect was very dim since the EoT would be between the Astronomican and your current location.
An example may be a lighthouse that is beyond the horizon, but you can still see the light reflected off clouds etc.
I think that Ultramar is in the correct place on the map too.
Dazo - Macragge is a planet in Ultramar.
There is still a great deal of space between Macragge and the edge of the galaxy, ie halo stars where the Milky Way is less dense. It may be better to say that Ultramar is in the Imperial deep south-east, close the borders of the Emperor's realm. Only a few systems may have been colonised beyond it. Hence Nid attakcs on Ultramar.
In fact one should assume that the 'empire' of the UM is no larger than a standard Imperial sub-sector. It has up to 8 colonised worlds, all of which would seem to be in close proximity. We can say that the sub has none of the administrative organisations in it like other sectors do...because of the Um efficiency.
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Post by CELS on Aug 3, 2004 9:21:12 GMT -5
Ok reading further of my copy of Index Astartes III it says it is located deep in the galactic south east. There is also a map in IA III which shows the realm of ultramar right on the very edge of ultima in fact the paradise world of prandium which was part of ultramar is situated out side of ultima. This is a fairly recent publication into which a great deal of though has apparently been put I, I choose to take this as gospel you may not in which case I doubt we are going to be able to come to an agreement on this issue. Well, might Ultramar might be on the edge of Ultima Segmentum, but we don't know how big Ultima Segmentum is. Previously I figured that the Segmentae would cover the entire galaxy, but since the map in the Defenders of Ultramar article clearly proves my hypothesis wrong, perhaps we should come up with a new one? Perhaps the Segmentae only go as far as the reach of the Astronomican? Or perhaps they cover the entire Imperium of man, and no Imperial worlds are found beyond the Segmentae (but many unexplored systems are)? What do you think? Personally, I'd vote for the first, except for the fact that the Segmentae circle is clearly ellipsoid in shape.. Yes, I know. I have Codex: Ultramarines. I was just wondering about how it was colonised, back in the early days. Constructive criticism, Dazo? Do you have a better suggestion? Yes, he was all over the place, but not during the later stages of the Great Crusade. After a while, he retreated to Earth, to form the council of Terra and perhaps to start preparing the Imperium for his demise. According to the fluff, the Astronomican is what the Navigators use to navigate by. Not the blinking lights of small astro-choirs, and certainly not the Imperial worlds themselves. Calculated jumps do not need navigators or beacons, and the Imperium used calculated jumps only before M22. But then, we don't know if Ultramar was colonised before M22. If you want to help me, then offer constructive criticism. Simply dismissing my suggestions gets us nowhere, fast. The method of elimination doesn't work very well when you have an endless amount of options. If you want to help, offer alternatives to the things you don't agree with. ...one dead dazo then;) CELS, I am mightly impressed with the work that you have done on this chart. Thanks, and thanks But remember that the galaxy has a radius of 50k LY, and that Earth is located 28k LY from the center. That means the Astronomican would only need a range of 23k LY to reach beyond the western edge. Glad to hear it! Unfortunately, that is not the way it is if we put Ultramar at the edge of the Astronomican. And the halo stars are definitely further out than this map, AFAIK... So we're left with the option of moving Ultramar closer to the galactic core than one would think (not necessarily contradicting fluff though) or putting Ultramar outside the reach of the Astronomican. Of course. The circles do in no way show the relative size of those locations. The Anargo sector would probably be something like 0.5 mm long on that pic
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Post by Dazo on Aug 3, 2004 11:12:04 GMT -5
Ok, ok look, the maps are visual, they are what i would call a primary source, the fluff however was written by people with, lets say, not as good a grasp as we have of galactic distances it is secondary, therefore i would ask that rather than go of badly/poorly concieved fluff we use the maps which are all consistent in one thing they extend to the fringes of the galaxy. I believe that the idea the core of GW vision for the imperium is that it encompases the entire galaxy. Now we can argue how this might be but my argument is it is easier for GW to show the imperium on a map because they don't have to use intricacies like distance. What if the person who wrote the 50k LY astronomicon distance didn't actually know how large the galaxy was. We have been given the maps but the fluff dosent match, yes, well then its the fluff thats wrong not the maps because it would have been the maps that came first You don't want much do you. We know it was there before the age of strife which according to my source was M23-M24. so some time in M20 macragge was probably colonised by intrepid colonists who braved the perils of the warp to land on Macragge, i doubt you'll find anything more than that. It wasn't critisism it was a light hearted jest did you not see the winking smiley There like that jockularity, Cels your just young be happy I did make a suggestion the beacons, but no, we cant have that, you've got your heart set on the astronomicon, so what do you want from me, any suggestion i make would be pure conjecture and you would just rip it to pieces and say i'm being unconstructive Relax man, be cool Right well thats not what i would call constructive CELS So whats your idea on that, you cant say i'm not being constructive in my critisism if you then go and do the exact same thing Really, I actually didn't know that about calculated jumpshow does that work. And it most probably was colonised before M22 at least that is what i'm led to believe from what i've read. But in the interests of getting back on your good side i'll go with whatever you suggest And what about my theory on the astropathic duct, any comments I know that Thats true, but how far out. I don't think macharius would have had to stop his crusade until he entered intergalactic space. 50k LY astronomicon from terra would extend beyond the galaxy in that direction NO, Ultramar can not be moved closer to the galactic core, it has to be on the fringe full stop. Every bit of fluff i've read states that. Look at it like this if it wasn't the hive fleets would not have been stopped they would have stripped every star beyond the astronomicon and that is a lot of stars, an entire galactic arm, they would be so well entrenched in the galaxy it makes a mockery of everything GW has written about them. Why the hell would they be bothering the imperium they've got all those stars and worlds to feed on. And finally, i've had a few drinks so dont go taking any thing i've said as an attack or nastiness or beligerance I would like to help you with this CELS because it really interests me...so...
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Post by CELS on Aug 3, 2004 20:28:44 GMT -5
Ok, ok look, the maps are visual, they are what i would call a primary source, the fluff however was written by people with, lets say, not as good a grasp as we have of galactic distances it is secondary You believe the maps were made by astronomy experts? Is it not more likely that both Andy Chambers & Co, and the art designers did some research on the galaxy, and then agreed on a map? First of all, we have already agreed that the Imperium does not encompass the entire galaxy. That's why we're making this map. Otherwise, I'd just stick to the Dark Millennia map. As you've proved yourself though, there are worlds outside the Segmentae, therefore the Imperium does not encompass the entire galaxy. Alright, they're stupid, but they're not THAT stupid. They would have done some research, obviously. There's no way they pulled that number out of their... pocket. Are you sure? Because the fluff came out with White Dwarf #139 or so, which was a long time ago. The Age of Technology was M15-25, the Age of Strife was M25-M30. As much as I do appreciate a good joke, let's also try to stick to the point And I know it wasn't constructive criticism. That's what I was trying to bring to your attention. ... Well, if those are the only two options we have, then there's really not much to talk about. Of course, you could try to make further arguments as to why there are beacons, and perhaps back it up with fluff. You don't really get the idea of constructive criticism, do you? See, the whole point is that criticism alone makes for a very slow progress, so you need to advance a specific suggestion rather than just attacking suggestions. I can happily write an entire post just attacking your comments (or rather, defending my posts) because I have already presented a suggestion. Get it? Perhaps you could tell me what exactly you've read that leads you to believe this? The more facts we have on the table, the easier it will be to make a so-called informed decision A short-cut, ghost, echo? I didn't really understand this "theory". He stopped because his armies couldn't go on any longer, not because there were no more worlds to conquer. Index Astartes III says that Ultramar is deep in the galactic south-east. Where does it say that it has to be the edge of the galaxy? Perhaps one might argue that the Eastern Fringe is the edge of the Imperium, and not the galaxy. And of course, we might just have to ignore the fluff in some respects to make it more coherent. If we were to just stick with the word of the fluff in every case, then there would be little point in this project, since we'd just be repeating what GW said. Because Tyranids don't go for the most peaceful solution. Imperial worlds have lots of tasty humans, and are terraformed with lots of tasty plants and animals. And of course, it's entirely possible that the Hive fleets came up between the Imperium and the distant systems outside the Imperium, and decided to go both ways. From the pictures I've seen, the Tyranid hivefleets s seem to be an expanding circle. Your help is welcome, as long as you keep your eyes on the goal, as it were.
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Post by Tynesh on Aug 4, 2004 23:00:35 GMT -5
There must be a good number of worlds between the galactic rim and Macragge....and for good reason too.
The earliest contacts with the Tyranids occured sometime before the invasion of Macragge. We know that both Behemoth and Kraken came in along the line of the galactic plane. Tyran was the first world where the Imperium made contact...not necessarily the first world eaten by the Nids. Tyran is on the very edge of the Imperium I believe.
So for Inquisitor Kryptman to become a leading authority on the Nids he must have visited many worlds, battles, etc to witness the hivefleets before Macragge Invasion.
Therefore Ultramar cannot be on the very brink of the galaxy...
...let it be written in stone
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Post by CELS on Aug 4, 2004 23:37:23 GMT -5
Hear, hear! Now, is there anything else anyone would like me to modify on the map? Anything at all? Well, besides the addition of the Segmentum Solar Should I add the names of the Segmentae? Should I add other important locations in the galaxy? Should I add the Eye of terror? Would the Eye of Terror really look like it does on GW maps? A huge miasma of light, spanning thousands of light years across?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 1:29:22 GMT -5
Yes add every thing you can find it needs to be a complete map if its going to give reference to the position of anargo within the imperium
mmm yes because it is a huge miasma of wierdness spanning thousands of light years
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 5, 2004 13:08:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but at this point I would like to add my support to CELS' approach thus far. I would also like to point out that there is a vast difference between political geography and geographical representation and that which is actual fact. Consider the various projections of the real world... Do you really think that France is smaller than England? Or Africa is that titchy compared to Europe? Thus why must 'fringe' automatically relate to the 'edge of the galaxy'? The Eastern Fringe means just that: the Eastern Fringe... of the Imperium. Nothing more and perhaps a whole lot less! With regards to expanding the map, may I suggest that we utilise the DM map - for now! - and plot appropriate positions. While I think that they were further off base than an Irish traditional dancer it is still a wonderful resource that we should use where possible... Now... Kage has already expressed his views on beacons which extend the range of the Astronomican by 10k+ LY. "Daft", he calls it, and I have a feeling he'll not change his mind on this one. To be fair, I must admit he has a point. Only consider the 'fluff' which states that an astropathic beacon only extends for 10 light years. Even with wave reinforcement, extending it such a significant distance just seems... ludicrous. This does not, however, preclude the use of astropathic beacons as a means of extending the range of the Astronomican on a piece-meal basis. Have enough candles in the room and you can definitely see what you're doing... Edit: As to the Eye of Terror, original sources it had it as a rough ellipse (hence it's called the Eye!) with a major axis of 10,000 light years.
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Post by CELS on Aug 5, 2004 22:38:41 GMT -5
It would be useful for the 'local area' around the Anargo sector, though. Kind of a 'zoom' version perhaps? Don't worry... I know the feeling. *cough* Eldar *cough* If and when the time comes that such a detailed map is requested, I'll reconsider. They're not... there seems to be a 'singularity' and the rest is 'corrupted space' which mixes the two realities. So, not one big portal at all... Depends on whether you're discussing the primary phenomenon or the results of that phenomenon.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 23:27:20 GMT -5
Lets be honest he's apologizing to me because i'm the only one whose been disagreeing with you lol sorry but i disagree, this map should have as much info as possible on. Obviously it needs all the segmentae, it will need all fleet head quarters, it should have all know space marine home worlds simply because we have a marine legion in anargo. And the other worlds are all part of other sectors they need to be represented somehow. With out these points of reference the position of anargo becomes rather redundant, I think people would want to know its position in relation to Baal or Atilla. Perhaps rather than place all of these worlds on the big pretty map we could quarter it and do an enlarged version of the quadrant with the planetery/sector positions Was that my fault, sorry, but don't give up I would like to see a detailed map Its not a warp portal its a warp overlap where the laws of both universes vie for dominance. It might have a centre it might not. I think of it as two pieces of thread that have been used in a pattern some parts of the pattern is the warp with rules to match similarly some parts are real space that cling to the laws of physics while in other place's both are present and you get an overlap of conflicting realities this stretches for thousands of light years warping stars and worlds to the whim of chaos while leaving others reletivly untouched. This is what happened to the eldar crone worlds its demented space niether one nor the other See above. You only have to mark the boundaries of the eye not map the interior. 1000 light years at least.
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