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Post by CELS on Jul 31, 2004 5:55:34 GMT -5
Well, we've been waiting for a replacement of the Dark Millennium map for ages and ages now, and it doesn't look like one will be falling into our laps anytime soon. So what do you say we make a new one? All we really need to do is to find a reliable picture of the galaxy - preferably something by a university or NASA, and not just a cool picture that someone made as a desktop background - and one of a proper size. 1024 x 768 or bigger, preferably. It should also have marked the location of Sol. We'll then start to make simple scetches over this picture. First, we need to rotate the picture to fit with the maps from Warhammer 40,000, with Earth in the galactic west. Second, we need to agree on the size and location of the Imperium. Then we need to draw up the lines of the Segmentae. We then start to plot in important locations such as the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom, Ultramar, etc. Finally, we decide where the Anargo sector will be. If we want, we can throw in all the worlds from the Dark Millennia map, even Valhalla, Necromunda and all of those. What do you think? Can someone help me with this important task? I've been looking for a good and reliable picture of the milky way, but I haven't been able to find one of sufficient size... A map showing the location of the Tau empire A map showing the location of Hive Behemoth and Hive Kraken. A map showing the location of Hive Leviathan
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Post by Dazo on Jul 31, 2004 23:46:28 GMT -5
There is also a map in the 3rd Ed rule book, i'll try and scan that for you its actually one of the better looking maps i've seen. I would love to help more but i don't think i'm skilled enough with computers to be any use to you in creating a new map
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 0:31:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I know this map, but I was thinking of making a whole new one. If you could scan that and post it though, at least we would be able to use it for reference.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 1, 2004 0:53:36 GMT -5
Sorry couldn't make it any smaller
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 1, 2004 1:49:19 GMT -5
It is extremely important that we don't fall into (with CELS' map) the trap of extending Segmentum Ultima to the far end of the galaxy... remember that the Astronomican only extends over a diameter of 50,000 light years. I'm interested by dazo's posted, though. The Segmentum Ultima doesn't necessarily extend to the 'far edge' of the galaxy given the non-standard representation... Hmmn... Oh yes, and we're going to have to move this one...
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Post by Dazo on Aug 1, 2004 2:02:16 GMT -5
I don't think you should be holding to tight to the 50,000 LY limit, as that might place anargo beyond the astronomicon
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Post by Sojourner on Aug 1, 2004 4:20:17 GMT -5
I believe the Astronomican's range is extended by astropathic relay stations sited throughout the Imperium. Hence, its strength diminishes less sharply toward the galactic east than in other directions, as it has a thick belt of inhabited systems to project it further.
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 5:09:45 GMT -5
Right. First, I'd just like to say that I'm going to need all the help of you science-type people I can get. I am way out of my league here. I've searched for hours trying to find a map that has the following criteria; [/li][li] It shows the location of Sol [/li][li] It shows the entire 100,000 light year width of the galaxy [/li][li] It shows each of the spiral arms clearly and neatly, so they can be identified. [/li][li] It is pretty. I have not found it. I have found several pictures of the milky way, that are very pretty, but close to useless. I have also found a lot of maps of the galaxy that are very precise, but quite ugly and/or small. As a result, I've found a pretty map, tried to identify the spiral arms, and thus back-tracked to earth, and tried to estimate the range of the Astronomican and the location of the different Segmentae. Here is a temporary version. Comments are welcome. Now... before anyone gets excited, I must ask you to consider the following. 1) There's a 50% chance that I've miscalculated Sol's location by several hundred light years, perhaps over a thousand. 2) There's a 10% chance that I've wrongly identified the spiral arms, and that we're looking at the milky way upside down, which means Sol is actually 60,000 light years from its real location. BUT the map does look like it has potential, in my opinion, and it shows important facts such as 1) The Anargo sector is located in the second spiral arm of "Ultima Segmentum" 2) Much of the third spiral arm (Centaurus arm) is over 50,000 light years from Earth. Please, share your thoughts! PS: Here are two pictures you can check out to cross-check what I've done img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/CELS83/Anargo%20Sector%20Project/technical.gifwww.anzwers.org/free/universe/milkyway.html
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Post by Dazo on Aug 1, 2004 5:43:06 GMT -5
Firstly excellent job on finding an actuall map thingy. You have missplaced earth though, no problem , going off the picture drop the dot representing earth by about 5cm then move it left about 10-8 cm and you should be approximatly in the right place Segmentum Pacificus is a little to large. The Eye of terror sort of has its own segment within Obscurus Obviously all the data we have to go on is a tad inaccurate so we have to allow ourselves abit of artistic license in order to get it to conform to what we think it should look like so don't worry about getting it right straight off Yeah i think its close to 75 LY from earth, and i'm curious about these beacons do we know where they are located, cos isn't ultramar in that arm. Incidentally i have a star trek map with the position of voyager, its not great but i'll post it if you think it will help it might give an idea of distances
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 6:59:32 GMT -5
Firstly excellent job on finding an actuall map thingy. Thanks! Even if it was actually just a picture, and not a map, when I found it No surprise I'll need to know how you know I've missplaced it? After all, its position varies depending of the angle of the galaxy. I've not actually seen any pictures on the web, I think, which has the Sol System at the same place as the 40k maps. So please, let me know how you calculate Earths position. Also, give me new coordinates in terms of pixels, because centimeters and inches depend on the size of your monitor and resolution Again, I'll need to know why and how large you think it would be? Remember though, that Earth is 28,000 light years from the galactic core. The galaxy has a diameter of 100,000 light years. The Astronomican has a radius of 50,000 light years. Only on the map that you posted, and even then, it's not really a Segment. 75 LY sounds a bit close. But then, I guess that depends on which location on the spiral arm you're calculating with. And I think Ultramar would be in the Centaurus arm, but I'm open for suggestions here. Yes, please! Worth a shot, eh?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 1, 2004 7:59:11 GMT -5
Right i've rotated this so its at the same thingy as the other maps of the galaxy. I've also done a very very rough position of the segmentums based on the new position of earth The pixel co-ordinates are 130,446 I think, and i have a good idea of where we are in the galaxy, from all the maps and programs ive seen, we are definatly on the fringe in a sparsley populated region of the galaxy Acording to patrick moore we are 25,000-30,000LY from the core, the core is 10,000LY across, and the overall size of 100.000 LY may, may be overestimated. We are at the edge of a spiral arm. Beyond the main system is the galactic halo which is more or less spherical.
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 11:59:00 GMT -5
Right i've rotated this so its at the same thingy as the other maps of the galaxy. I've also done a very very rough position of the segmentums based on the new position of earth Well, I don't agree with the size of the segmentae by a long shot. The Segmentum Pacificus looks almost ridiculously small, and it doesn't look anything like in the 3rd Edition rulebook map, or the Dark Millennia map. I might agree that my own version shows the Segmentum Pacificus as too large, but I really don't see the point in making the far edge of the Segmentum on the inside of the galaxy, when the range of the Astronimican should be outside the "galactic west". After all, Earth is located about 28,000 light years from the galactic core, the galaxy has a radius of 50,000 light years, and the Astronomican has a range of 50,000 light years. We are in the Orion arm, as far as I know. If your coordinates are correct, the Imperium would look something like this (except the Ultima Segmentum wold be bigger). As you can see, the Astronomican can barely reach beyond the galactic core. Of course, if we can confirm that this coordinate is correct, that must just mean that my estimate of the picture's scale is wrong, because the Astronomican should reach 22,000 light years beyond the galactic core, almost halfway into the far side of the galaxy. How certain are you, Dazo? You've seen a lot of maps and programs, and I've seen a lot of maps and, well, just one program called Celestia. According to a website I found on the web, from some English university, we are about 28,000 light years from the core. This had been estimated in 1997, IIRC. EDIT: Trying to locate the spiral arms based on this updated suggestion. I'm unable to find the Perseus arm... which worries me.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 1, 2004 12:10:59 GMT -5
Astropathic Relay Stations... I would feel that it is a humongous mistake to interpret 'astropathic relay stations' as extending the Astronomican per se rather the utilisation of 'psychic beacons'. The nature of these would be up for grabs, but the idea of them retransmitting the power of the Astronomican... Well, given the 'fluff' on the Astronomican it beggers belief... Although now that I've said that the idea of them trying to add energy in 'resonance' with the Astronomican does have potential. Of course, this extending it tens of thousands of light years is daft... but distorting it to form an ellipsoid rather than a sphere... Oh yes, and once again: Shut up, dazo! The Maps... It would be nice to overlay the DM maps to give us a rough relative position of Anargo sector rather than positioning it roughly where it was meant to be on the DM map but without the 'contraction' of the Imperium.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 1, 2004 22:08:18 GMT -5
I know that, that was a crude representation at best, i was not trying for pinpoint accuracy I wouldn't know about that, considering every map GW has done seems to be different, its hard to be exact. Yep that looks better. Though which part of the orion arm we are in is rather hazy at the moment. That map is mostly based on the ones GW have done, if they got the position wrong then...*shrugs shoulders* To be honest i might have put us at the bottom of that map where the orion arm thins out a little. I have the discovery channels, so i've seen all those nice graphical thingys they do, Every time you see the shot pull out from earth to the wider galactic view you see that we are virtualy right on the edge of the galaxy. Now the orientation of the galaxy is another matter. I would also point out that our position in the galaxy is not fixed Also the width of the galaxy might be less than 100,000 LY so we should be a little more flexible in our estimations of distances Dont worry it'll turn up some, where did u have it last I never said a word, ive always thought the astronomicon might actuall vary in its strenth depending on where you are looking at it
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 22:49:57 GMT -5
I know that, that was a crude representation at best, i was not trying for pinpoint accuracy I don't need pinpoint accuracy, but crude representations I can get from GW Well, this is more about common sense than interpreting GW's maps. If the galaxy is divided into five segmentae, then these had damn well better cover the entire thing. That some of them, such as Ultima Segmentum, reach further than the Astronomican is inevitable. And here I was hoping you were actually quite confident in what you said.... From every map I have seen on the web, Sol is located in the inner half of the Orion arm. Well, unless you're an autist with some kind of photographic memory, I can't really rely on that. And even if you were, one shouldn't believe everything they show on TV. And frankly, we can't be on the edge of the galaxy, because the milky way has a 50k LY radius, and Sol is 28k LY from the galactic core. Most of the educational websites I have seen (by various universities in Europe) suggest that it is about 100k LY. Apparently, there is some doubt about this, but it is the common estimate at the moment, as far as I can see. It's also probably the estimate GW worked from, when they first made the galaxy maps. Increasing your credibility nicely. I don't suppose they showed the Perseus arm on the Discovery channel EDIT: Here's a new version. Less pretty, but more accurate, since it includes a scale and the location of Sol. The dotted yellow line represents the range of the Astronomican if one assumes that it has a range of 25k LY. The dotted red line represents the range of the Astronomican if one assumes that it has a range of 45k LY. Someone will no doubt disagree with the appearance of the Segmentae, but before you post criticism, consider the fact that the entire galaxy is supposed to be covered by these five segments. They are a way to divide the galaxy. It doesn't mean that the Imperium extends as far as the edge of Ultima Segmentum. Constructive criticism is very welcome indeed, as are suggestions for the location of the Anargo Sector and the so-called Eastern Fringe (and do try to include a reason ). PS: Also note the Astro Telepathica duct on the picture posted by Dazo, in Ultima Segmentum. Do people have any thoughts on this? Is it just put there to look cool, or does it have a special meaning?
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