|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 13, 2004 9:45:32 GMT -5
I do understand what you are saying but it feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting what I have posted... I don't think that I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. The increasing 'feel' that I'm getting from what you're stating is that you have a rather specific interpretation of psykers which is not necessarily, but usually, at variance with the 'fluff'. When it is not at variance it is often skewed to reflect a consistent interpretation, but interpretation nonetheless. The mechanics as represented attempt to reflect 'pskyers' as much as possible without interpretation. Yes, preference of mechanical representation but beyond that the question is whether the system provides a robust method of representing them. As such a full 'spectrum' of possibility must be included rather than specific preference/interpretation for "warp=daemon" or "psyker=cork". I have banged on about the warp etc, as I do not design anything unless I have a clear concept to act as a guide in the design process. The specific nature of the warp is, indeed, contentious but with sufficient information to allow multiple interpretations. I tend to prefer fence-sitting, a feature that some people tend to dislike. You've taken a stance, which is laudible but in this case slightly misses the point. The question is not whether are interpretations agree, but whether the mechanics as presented - beyond the disagreement with the use 'magic' - sufficiently represent the canonical material. Reading your posts I take it you that like having all the variables, with no hard and fast 'defining element' to the mechanics, thus allowing the players their own interpretation. Yes. It is a core premise of everything that I do. Design something generic and then include "options" which allow representation of specific interpretations. Otherwise you get into the concept that representation is actually definition, thereby removing personal preference and interpretation. In contrast I'm trying to nail it down to the letter... Except it doesn't come off that way. It comes off that you're reinterpreting psykers in much the same way, for example, that your interpretation allows eldar to have 'dog legs'... Furthermore, as above, people tend to have a problem when you define things to such an extent that it leaves little lattitude. In other words, you give them a torch but you leave the light off... I don't think this is 'frustrating' I find it enjoyable, looking into another's mind is fascinating! <grin> You're not quite looking into the mind other than an generalised interest not to allow personal interpretation - and I include genre, here - to wash over everything so that you're left with something that is only viable if you agree with the assumptions made. This Damon could use the real universe it channels to create magic effects. Not agreeing with that particular premise... Humans channel the warp (not warp 'energy', as I think adding 'energy' is misleading)... The warp is energy... the psyker channels a part, not the totality. ...though I am not over keen on it as it is very 'open', and would prefer something a little more closed and specific). With your overt Lovecraftian/nihilistic overtones and rather specific reinterpretation of psykers and the warp, that is not something that I would be keen on doing. It is too image specific... the whole "pictures tell a thousand words", but let's just face it: every word has a whole bunch of meanings, which means that for every picture you're telling ten-thousand 'lies'... To use your own language, your approach is acceptable as something that is 'fan based' but in terms of broader application not something that could be integrated into the wider range of interpretations. That is to say that it is inherently exclusive rather than being subject to use by a wider audience. If I was designing it for GW... GW have a very specific, and changing, brief. A part of that is aspecting their game mechanics so that they are, as much as possible, self-referential. They produce their own skirmish game - some like to call it an RPG, i.e. Inquisitor) - because, well, they can... It would have been much better if they had offered the franchise and created something which is accessible to a wider range, rather than wargamers... But regardless. I'm sorry to say that I felt this thread was previously frustrating. It's increasingly coming off as disappointing since it has primarily concentrated around a reinterpretation and remake of the 'fluff' rather than the applicability of the 'mechanics' to the 'fluff' as it stands, e.g. including previous editions (and not just the most recent or a preferred viewing of it).
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 1, 2004 17:42:15 GMT -5
Alright, I've taken the time to read through both this thread and the one that inspired it and all I can say is ASPRIN. My kingdom fo an asprin. Just kidding.
Before I even attempt to go through and quote specific topics of discussion, I think it might be easier to first attempt to make some observations of the entirety of the argument.
One of the major sticking points seems to center around the tyrany of Words. the words Magic and Magic user cropped up many times in the discussion, but by reading it, Icould see that both of you were ascribing different meaning to the word. Might I offer a definition that might be suitable in the framework of this discussion.
For the past couple of years, my gaming group has utilized the White wolf gaming systems. One in particular, Mage the Ascension seems most appropriate to our discussion. I will not bore you with all of the details of the system, but the main premise behind it is a war for the paradigm (philosophical and theoretical framework of reality).
There are two opposing groups;
The Traditions
This is a diverse group of cabals and cults who practice or direct the energies of the universe in patterns that can only be described as the fantasy kind of magic. tey weave enchantments and create great artifacts of power.
The Technocracy
The opposition to the traditions. This organization which is made up of several sub-sects, has a magic system based around what could be called the modern or technological paradigm. Rather than weaving spells and incantations (Although this is not beyond their Arch Masters) they create machines that allow them to accomplish impossible feats.
While both groups are considered mages, most technocrats do not view themselves in this fashion. the term mage carries a bad connotation even in that system. Instead most refer to themselves as "Will Workers"
A Mage (Magi-User) would be one who exerts his own will in order to bend reality to his wishes. Similarly, a psyker is exerting his will to direct the flow of energy from the warp in order to bend reality to his wishes. So whether we are refering to a Mage or a Psyker, both are attempting to control or manipulated the a direct exertion of their will.
The Psyker Outlook
Philip, I beleived you mentioned the fact that psykers have a tendancy to seem unhinged or at least odd in the fluff. This is of course based on the preceptions of those that do not share their abilites. I have friends that play "Everguest" (Although I'll never understand the appeal of it myself). Listening to them talk about it is like listening to them describe a real place that they have been to (like going Cancun and then talkig about your trip).
I have seen the reactions of norms (normal people) when they go out and talk about it or discuss our RPG sessions while eating in a restaurant (which I hate). they look at them as if they are unhinged or at least extremely weird. similarly, those that can not concieve of the powers a psyker can manifest or channel, might think his explanations or actions are odd.
The Emperor's Abilities
Personally I don't see the Emperor as channeling a different form of warp energy. What we need to remember is the way in which the Emperor was created. He came into being by the sacrifice of all of the shamans of his era.
It may be that the Emperor is an gestalt being created from the spirits of the combined psykers (shamans). this would mean that unlike your typical psyker who is alone when he draws from the warp and therefore must face the entities alone, the Emperor is legion.
Psyker as an Advantage
The original concept for the system would have Psyker represented as a character advantage. Again, I am not completely knowledgeable with regards to the Gurps system, so please bear with my explanations.
Rather than having a single Advantage, we perhaps need to have (at least) two. The first would of course be psyker, as described in your write up Kage. the second would be either latenet psyker or warp sensative. There are individuals out there that for one reason or another have psychic powers that go undeveloped.
A latenet psyker could perhaps blossom later in the game and become a full fledged (rogue) psyker. A warp sensative individual might gain bonuses on other skills dealing with the warp or such things as intuition or empathy. These are individuals who don't have enough psychic power to light a match, but for some reason they can anticipate people's reactions or get a quick flash of what is going to happen before it does.
The cost for the psyker merit should be set rather high. If someone really wants to be a psyker, it should cost them alot. They can lessen this cost by purchasing the disadvantage "psychic beacon." This Disadvantage should only be able to be purchased by an individual who has taken the Psyker, Latent Psyker or Warp Sensative Advantage.
Those that purchase the psyker advantage would be considered primary psykers. As stated, this is expensive, but it allows them to purchase training in dirfferent psychic colleges. those that purchase the Disadvantage "Psychic Beacon" would be considered secondary psykers. This mitigates some of the cost of purchasing the psyker merit, but has the potential of opening up a host of problems during game play (it is a disadvantage after all).
The point cost for purchasing the advantage Latent Psyker should be relatively minor. It only opens up the potential for a character to develope psychic abilites. Since the character does not start the game as a psycher, the can not purchase any powers from the different psychic colleges.
Perhaps instead of being an advantage, Latent Psyker might be better as a disadvantage (again a low cost disadvantage). It opens the ability for the character to blossom into a psyker during game play....while also presenting a host of problems and plot hooks.
There are alot of other things that I wanted to comment on, but my brain is fried at the moment. I'll post some more later. <reaches for bottle of advil>
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 1, 2004 21:31:22 GMT -5
...Icould see that both of you were ascribing different meaning to the word. To be fair, I felt that it was an irrelevant point beyond the fact that just changing the word invalidated the problem with it. Awake Edit: Replace 'magic user' with 'psyker', 'spell' with psi-ability, or whatever. For me, nearly every single description of psyker abilities in the 'fluff' works better if represented with the magic rules of the game system that I'm using rather than the psionics rules in the same system. That doesn't mean that the system is 'weak', merely that it does things differently. If it had been Rifts it would have been done differently again, same with D&D, Shadowrun or whatever system I had chosen... The system isn't broken (well, because of this feature anyway), it just represents the best fit concepts in a heading that just doesn't happen to be in "Chapter x: Psionics."
That kind of removes the first half of that rather extensive email... Awake Edit: There are a number of additional comments that can be made here. Firstly, I actually started a thread discussing the potential similarities between the MtA and 40k backgrounds. It kind of got sidelined into discussing the various features of such a cross-over, and an extension of the metaphysics of the 40k universe, but it was originally based off the premise that the adeptus mechanicus were a reduced Technocracy and that the Traditions, through 'psyker' organisations (i.e. adeptus astra telepathica, adeptus astronomican, as well as through the Emperor themselves). Indeed, the original idea was to create an 'alternative' interpretation whereby one could argue that the Imperium and the adeptus terra was the manifestation of conflict between the Traditions and the Technocracy... Got a feeling that you might have liked this.
It may be that the Emperor is an gestalt being...the Emperor is legion. Just a means of offering a 'greater power' such as between 'mortal' and 'entital' creatures as an option... Awake Edit: It was, as mentioned above, merely the utilisation of the GURPS: MtA Sphere Magick rules. While arguably, and only in some ways, Sphere Magick might be a more appropriate representation of psyker abilities, mechanically it doesn't quite work. The limitations used to moderate 'magick' (e.g. Paradox, static versus dynamic magick, etc.) are not necessarily relevant in the 40k universe and, as such, for 'average' characters I didn't really want to get into that at the moment... Plus, it once again puts the 'force' within the Mage themselves, not strictly referencing the channelling of external energies unless quintessence was required... Again as an aside, when I first thought about the translation to 'magic' as a representation of psyker abilities, it made a quirky sense to extrapolate C'tan as 'Mages' as well, though lacking Spirit. Old Ones lacked one of the other ones, say Forces, to balance this out. The normal spectrum of 'psyker ability' is actually similar to the concept of quintessence/tass and mana in the MtA universe, as well as the general idea of Numina (ref: VtM)... And ironically given Philip's quirky argument in General, this would also make C'tan the last bastion of 'order' (read: the Technocratic belief and the separation of 'random elements', etc.) in the universe, with Chaos/Marauders being at the other side of the spectrum. Erm, Old Ones ended up as some daft form of Pure Ones so I'll shut up about that one...
Rather than having a single Advantage, we perhaps need to have (at least) two... This is included in the normal GURPS in various fashions... As a 'work in progress' it means that I'm not going to type up every single bit of relevant material in one go. But valid point. Awake Edit: There are oodles of ways of going about this now that I'm actually awake enough - and not a bit peeved from another feature of the project! - to post them. This type of 'latency' can be represented in a number of ways. The most obvious is a version of the 'Luck' advantage, given that canonical sources often reference to latent psykers as being lucky, etc. This can cover the translated cost of becoming a Psyker more than easily, though it would be hard to suddenly 'awake' to being a primary psyker... Awareness is another obvious one, a dual cost advantage which allows just general 'awareness' of magic/spirits for the lower price, or a form of 'aura sense' for the higher price. The smaller number would be perfect for one interpretation of latency... Second Sight, same again... Visualisation might work as well, at least as a 'basic version. Unknown Patron is another one, especially with a character that has a tendency of playing on the 'dark side', e.g. it could be a Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon, or whatever. Indeed, if you believe in that - and it's not something that most 3/4E'ers know about or care about - this would also work with the Star Child. Heck, even the Machine God would work, if you believe that has truly arisen. What else? "Magical Knacks" representing a 'birth gift' - or unwanted development - could be used to represent psyker ability without expanding the full range of abilities possible... Ooh, a Janus Darke (King, Farseer) possibility: Split Personality. One personality has the 'psyker abilities' and the other has no real knowledge of them. Gradually one personality could come to dominate over the other, allowing increased access... (Or the personalities could come to work together in true Sorak fashion, e.g. Simon Hawke's Nomad books for the Forgotten Sun setting.) What about Wyrd/Destiny, which can either be positive or negative (and this depends on the GM and player interpretation of psyker abilities). The development of psyker abilities could be a 'bad' (disadvantage) Destiny... a severe one might mean that they are doomed to become possessed at some point. (But then again, this might lead to them becoming illuminatus!) And there are probably more that just don't spring to mind at the moment. It just means that there should be a "Latent Psykers" section... But, again, first drafts have tendency of needing those kinds of revisions, especially when they are being developed 'on the spot' as it were.
Those that purchase the psyker advantage would be considered primary psykers. As stated, this is expensive, but it allows them to purchase training in dirfferent psychic colleges. those that purchase the Disadvantage "Psychic Beacon" would be considered secondary psykers. This is basically how it works without specific mention to a 'negative' beyond the fact that they are not able to 'hide their psyker light'. This is, of course, an sweeping assumption on the nature of the 'primary psyker', but we never quite got to that. The point cost for purchasing the advantage Latent Psyker should be relatively minor. It depends on the nature of the latency, but the 'points cost' will vary. Awake Edit: Remembering, of course, if it gives your character an 'advantage' than it is going to cost points (e.g. psyker abilities), while anything that gives a disadvantage is going to give you a points break (e.g. the fact that you a psyker and therefore hiding a 'Secret' from Imperial authorities, the chances of mutation, blah blah).
It opens the ability for the character to blossom into a psyker during game play....while also presenting a host of problems and plot hooks. Most 'ads' are not available for purchase in the game. Given the setup and the requirement for latency as part of the 'fluff', it is possible for this to happen anyway...
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 2, 2004 16:24:21 GMT -5
[/b]There are a number of additional comments that can be made here. Firstly, I actually started a thread discussing the potential similarities between the MtA and 40k backgrounds.[/quote] Really? Was it on this forum or Portent? If you could post a link, I would really like to read it. Using the mage system for 40k does not seem that far fetched. In fact, I did something similar with the Dune Universe for my gaming group. We are currently running a “tripping through Time” campaign that started back in the mythic age and is winding its way through history to the modern age. The Meta Plot for the campaign is the struggle over reality that has existed since before the first age. In the Mythic Age this was the struggle between Lemuria and Atlantis that saw the destruction of the old cycle and the creation of the new one. To caryy the story arch beyond the modern era, I turned to the dune Universe, becase it is not only well documented, but has organizations that could be the descendants of the Technocracy and Traditions (which are just the current face on the struggle that started with Lemuria and Atlantis). If you look at the Dune Books, the Bene Tleilaxu, which produce the gholas of Duncan Idaho are very reminiscent of the Progenitors (Cosians). The Bene Gesserit similarly embody some of the theaching of the Progenitors, but may have a mystic tradition inspired by either the celestial chorus or Ali-Batini. The Ixians definitely embody Iteration X (Artificers). C.H.O.A.M. (Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles) could well be the descendants of the Syndicate (High Guild). Of course, these only represent the factions of the Technocracy (which in the end wins the Ascension War), but there are groups that also embody the Traditions. There is one group that I have yet to find a correlation for; the Guild. It may be that the guild is a group that emerged after the discovery of spice…much like the Virtual Adepts did not come into being until after the internet was developed. Their ability to fold space and time (moving without moving) sounds a lot like the descriptions of how the higher levels of Correspondence (The Sphere of Connection) work. This is but a hint of how we are hoping to carry the Mage story line into the future (We’re only in the 1700s, after 5 years, so we have a long way to go). 40k having similar groups (since much of it was ripped off…..err inspired by the Dune Series) should just as easily fit into a conversion of the rules from Mage. While arguably, and only in some ways, Sphere Magick might be a more appropriate representation of psyker abilities, mechanically it doesn't quite work. The limitations used to moderate 'magick'.... Plus, it once again puts the 'force' within the Mage themselves, not strictly referencing the channelling of external energies unless quintessence was required. A lot of points to cover here…let us first start with Static (Coincidental) vs Dynamic (Vulgar) magic. Rather than saying this applies to how a specific spell is cast, could we not as easily say that certain powers are always coincidental or vulgar. Powers that affect the mind or which have no physical effect would be coincidental while those that have an actual physical manifestation would be vulgar. Example: Turning InvisibleIf you use a power to fuddle your enemy’s mind and make him either not acknowledge your existence or forget that he has seen you, then this is coincidental. You are still physically there, and will show up on electrical equipment. It is just that those effected by the power perceptually do not register your presence. If on the other hand you use a power to bend the light around you so that you you physically become invisible, then that is vulgar. It takes more energy to not only create the latter effect, but to maintain it. ParadoxParadox could be defined as the strain placed on the Psyker in attempting to change or affect consensual reality. Instead of Paradox it could be interpreted as exhaustion rating. Even though a Psyker draws energy from the warp in order to effect reality, the energy is still directed by his will the large the effect attempted, the hard it is to move consensual reality. This also helps to put a cap on how much a Psyker can change reality. If they try to do too much without resting (unwinding) then they could lose control of the warp power they are channeling and either end up in a “quiet” or mutated by the warp (Paradox Flaws). The way I view a “quite” translating into the psyker system is sort of like being cast adrift in the warp. Imagine a psyker drawing energy from the warp being similar to a siphon. The psyker is pulling energy out of the warp. If for some reason the vacuum on the syphon is broken, there is the potential for it to reverse and draw some liquid back into the original container. If a psyker allows his exhaustion level (Paradox) to get too high and he loses control of his link to the warp, there exists the possibility of his psyche being sucked back into the warp as the connection is broken. Sometimes, the psyker is able to find his way back to his body other times…..well let’s just say he isn’t so lucky. QuintessenceWhile I agree that psykers can draw energy directly from the warp, I also see them as being able to store a certain amount of warp energy. This is similar to having a radio that you can plug into the wall or which can run on batteries. I’m not sure if the Gurps version of Mage has the background trait “Avatar”, but this may be a way to define how much energy a psyker has within himself without being hooked up to the warp. The Avatar rating covers among other things (in the White Wolf version) how much Quintessence a mage can draw from a cray and store in his wheel. An Avatar or 2 can only absorb two points of quintessence. Of course at higher levels in certain spheres, a mage can fill his entire wheel (up to 20 points, less any Paradox on the wheel). Maybe there are certain powers that would allow a mage to fill up his wheel in a similar fashion (but that is a discussion for later). The advantage to using this stored power is that the psyker is not connected directly to the warp. He can therefore use this stored warp energy (or spend the quintessence as power point) without the threat of being attacked by a warp entity (i.e. if you had a radio running off of batteries, it would be unaffected by a power surge running through the wiring of the house, while a radio plugged into the socket could be destroyed by the same surge).
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 2, 2004 18:28:00 GMT -5
C’tan QuestionI don’t think that the C’tan should be defined in the same way as psykers. In the White Wolf system, there is another book that deals with magical creatures. This is the Bygone Bestiary. It gives stats and point costs for playing such creatures as dragons, gryphon, etc. While it is possible for such creatures to have majic, it often comes at a much higher cost. Most of them don’t need true magic though. Dragons for instance have breath weapons are large and have sharp claws and teeth. One of the interesting flaws (disadvantages) that you can take for such creatures is that of Thamelvor (spelling). This is a creature that can only gain sustinence from eating magic. It might be that a disadvantage could be created for the C’tan similar to this, but instead of magic, it would be souls. This disadvantage might also apply to some possessed or demon lords. LatencyYour are definitely right, we will need to make a seprate section just for “Latent Psykers”. Maybe in second edition. The luck advantage, awareness, aura scense and second sight abilites all sound like feasible options. One thing that I would like to see included under the Latent Psyker section is something for the existence of physical adepts (I always liked these guys in Shadowrun). They could have latent abilities that make them stronger or faster than normal people (they would be like the Akaisik Brotherhood from Mage). Heck, even the Machine God would work, if you believe that has truly arisen. Well if we wind up using the the Mage system maybe he can be the AI that runs Iteration X….although I’m sure that would give CELS kittens. Split Personality. One personality has the 'psyker abilities' and the other has no real knowledge of them. Another interesting possibility in this vein is the possibility of the psychically active personality falling to chaos or another warp entity while the non-psychic personality remains uncorrupted and undetected. This might make for an interesting story hook (sort of like the serial killer who is only one personality of an otherwise good person). Dark Destiny is easy to see. A “Light” Destiny (or just Destiny) would all depend on the players and story. Maybe if the players are competing to become Space Marines, the psyker winds up becoming or is destined to become a master librarian of the chapter. If it is an inquisitorial campaign, perhaps she is destined to become a chief inquisitor. This is basically how it works without specific mention to a 'negative' beyond the fact that they are not able to 'hide their psyker light'. This is, of course, an sweeping assumption on the nature of the 'primary psyker', but we never quite got to that. This might be the next stage in the development of psykers, the ability to mask their warp signature. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons that the elder are uncomfortable around humans or feel they are inferior is because they are always broadcasting their emotions. This does not mean much to us, a non-psychic race, but to the elder it would be not only annoying but probably even deafening if enough humans were present. Secondary psykers may represent the first stagein evolution to Psychic Man. They have gained the ability to perceive the warp, but are not yet able to control the natural tendency to broadcast. A normal human in the warp would appear muchlike a candle. Augmented by their connection to the warp, this first generation of psykers burn like a bonfire. Primary psykers be naturally masked. Maybe this is a mutation or the next step in the evolutionary process to Psychic Man. Most 'ads' are not available for purchase in the game. Given the setup and the requirement for latency as part of the 'fluff', it is possible for this to happen anyway... I know, we will have to work out a system. I definitely don’t see a latent psyker becoming a primary psyker. Perhaps anyone who chooses latency over starting out with psychic powers automatically gains the disadvantage “Psychic Beacon” and becomes a rogue psyker. In this manner, they are picking up a new disadvantage during game play, and not receiving any point benefit for it. Instead the point differential pays for being raised to the status of “awakened” psyker. Does this sound reasonable? Rogue Psykers could be similar to the Hollow Ones from mage. They do not ascribe to either the Traditions or Technochracy, but can pick magic from any order….although it is more difficult and there is a stigma attached to being a hollow one.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 19:37:27 GMT -5
I think that there has been some misunderstanding here. Despite the fact that there are similarities and I'm rather fond of the MtA way of doing things, I have no real interest in using that particular set of game mechanics to represent psykers. I'm sorry if I misrepresented that... I merely utilise it is an add on for those people who like their 'power characters' to be further differentiated than within the 'standard' system. Yes, it has some interesting potentials, but when it's not necessary... well, it's not necessary. Was it on this forum or Portent? Portent, years and years back. Indeed, back in the time when they had interesting discussions on the application of the 'fluff' rather than just what each specific bit of the 'fluff' says, which is inherently more dull and librarian-like. Although that's me... I personally don't get off on knowing what ever little bit of the 'fluff' says, rather using it to increase the depth and complexity of the universe and integrating it... kinda strange since I'm also wanting maximum flexibility for interpretation, but that's kind of a 40k necessity! If you could post a link, I would really like to read it. It seems that Portent seems to have lost the thread, at least in the 'search' that I'm allowed to do (i.e. by thread starter). Seems that Portent has eaten it. Using the mage system for 40k does not seem that far fetched. Not far fetched at all, but also something that I'm personally not going to touch. Thus you will have to accept my apologies for not replying to the specifics of your campaign... Of course, these only represent the factions of the Technocracy (which in the end wins the Ascension War)... Did WizzKids finally settle on this? Shame... descriptions of how the higher levels of Correspondence (The Sphere of Connection).. Incidentally is that what the new edition calls it? I just remember it as 'Cojoin realities' or some such. Rather than saying this applies to how a specific spell is cast, could we not as easily say that certain powers are always coincidental or vulgar. You could, but again not to throw you off on one, but I'm not going down the route of representing psykers by Sphere Magick... Interesting discussion, but not for me at the moment. Start another thread and I'll reply to it, assuming of course that other threads keep going to keep my interest in posting to other peoples' threads... My only comment is that anything which can be manifested as technology automatically becomes static... Why does a psyker 'blending' in with the background be considered to be using vulgar magick if you consider the existence of chameleoline cloaks. Again, though, that's not for this thread. I’m not sure if the Gurps version of Mage has the background trait “Avatar” Yes, it does. Of course. It wouldn't be a conversion otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 19:51:24 GMT -5
I don’t think that the C’tan should be defined in the same way as psykers. Again, this is predicated on the fact that I am using the 'system' to define the 40k universe. I found it an interesting analogy to make if one didn't assume that C'tan mere merely 'mythic creatures', but other than that it was... well, just that: a mental exercise. Your are definitely right, we will need to make a seprate section just for “Latent Psykers”. Maybe in second edition. LMAO! I'm afraid that my energy tends to be sucked up in having to try and keep the project on the rought integrationist/holistic principles that were originally envisaged rather than merely conforming to the latest rehash. When I have the time then I shall get around to it! ...is something for the existence of physical adepts (I always liked these guys in Shadowrun). That can be handled in a different way, but I'm really not overtly fond on the concept in the 40k universe... All that means is that I'm not going to spend the time in creating or altering a system just to incorporate them as 'defined' in the Shadowrun universe just so that they can be incorporated... Magical Knacks or 'single college' limitations would work just as well. But defining them as 'latent' doesn't work, although it does allow some form of limited explanation of the 'daft' powers of the Primarchs. But again there are better ways of doing this without bastardising the Physad concept in its complete form. Well if we wind up using the the Mage system... You can do what you want... As I said in my original mail, I'm personally not going to touch it except as a mental diversion. Another interesting possibility in this vein is the possibility of the psychically active personality falling to chaos or another warp entity while the non-psychic personality remains uncorrupted and undetected. Been there, done that... have the t-shirt. It is kind of how I personally interpret Solitaires... Kind of. Maybe if the players are competing to become Space Marines, the psyker winds up becoming or is destined to become a master librarian of the chapter. If it is an inquisitorial campaign, perhaps she is destined to become a chief inquisitor. Light and darkness are just shades of interpretation. This might be the next stage in the development of psykers, the ability to mask their warp signature. Potentially... but that is the point. It was never gotten to given that much of the, erm, discussion was focussed around the utilisation of a 'magic' system. The nature of Primary Psykers is up for grabs. If you were to take the superficial approach, then technically all they need is a high "Willpower". Of course, that's horrendously tacky but there we go. They have gained the ability to perceive the warp, but are not yet able to control the natural tendency to broadcast. Only problem with the theory is that Primary and Secondary are definitions of the scholastica psykana, which relates to a 'trained model' in the long run. I know, we will have to work out a system. Erm, it's pretty much there already. Perhaps anyone who chooses latency over starting out with psychic powers automatically gains the disadvantage “Psychic Beacon” and becomes a rogue psyker. Erm... sounds a bit... limiting. Instead the point differential pays for being raised to the status of “awakened” psyker. Does this sound reasonable? Not sure, but the knee jerk reaction is that it doesn't. Rogue Psykers could be similar to the Hollow Ones from mage. Or it could be a reference to being unsanctioned? Why invent a new type when it is not necessary?
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 19:56:02 GMT -5
Would adding in my enhanced/ natural Psyker ‘fluffy add-on’ for the Astropath thread be appropriate as a clear definition of Psyker power?
E-E = Primary E-N = Secondary N-N = weak Secondary (feed to Emperor) B-N = Sixth sense B-B = None
E = Enhanced Psyker gene set N = Natural Psyker gene set B = Basic Human gene set
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Nov 4, 2004 18:40:35 GMT -5
I think that there has been some misunderstanding here. Despite the fact that there are similarities and I'm rather fond of the MtA way of doing things, I have no real interest in using that particular set of game mechanics to represent psykers. I'm sorry if I misrepresented that... I merely utilise it is an add on for those people who like their 'power characters' to be further differentiated than within the 'standard' system. Yes, it has some interesting potentials, but when it's not necessary... well, it's not necessary. I agree that alot of what I had to say above really had nothing to do with the task at hand...I got a little carried away in my illustration of the points. If we scrape away all of the information about the traditions and technocracy and look at the system alone, I still beleive that the MtA rules would be best for representing psykers. It is not smething that I will argue insessantly over though. If we can make the other system work, then fine. We can always convert the MtA system later for those as you say who wish a more maleable or differentiated system. (Second Edition) I will review the information on the system you were suggesting in your other post and see if I can come up with anything constructive. Not far fetched at all, but also something that I'm personally not going to touch. Thus you will have to accept my apologies for not replying to the specifics of your campaign... No problem, I did kind of begin to wander off topic (only a little ways mind you). Incidentally is that what the new edition calls it? I just remember it as 'Cojoin realities' or some such. Yes its called the sphere of Connection. When you move using connection, you are not really teleporting so much as eliminating the distance between points and stepping through to the other place...sort of like in a Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle or the folding of space that the Guild Navigators use n the Dune Series. Interesting discussion, but not for me at the moment. Start another thread and I'll reply to it, assuming of course that other threads keep going to keep my interest in posting to other peoples' threads... Lets just let it drop for the moment. If we are not going to use it for the ASP, then with everything else we have to do, it would be counter productive. We can always pick up the discussion at a later time when things are less hectic or after we have the basic systems nailed down. My only comment is that anything which can be manifested as technology automatically becomes static... Why does a psyker 'blending' in with the background be considered to be using vulgar magick if you consider the existence of chameleoline cloaks. It is after all the technological paradigm, so things that can be "logically" explained through science people are more willing to accept. If you were to say that you are using the Magic Cloak from Harry Potter, most people would look at you cross ways and tell you to stop being a twit (hence it would be vulgar to them). It is after all a matter of how you package it. My nephew hates pork, but would eat bacon until the cows....err pigs come home. They're from the same animal, but one he is willing to swallow and the other he is not. The same goes for explaining a cloak that make you invisible (camoflages you). Explain how it works technologically. Even if the listener ddoesn't understand all of the scientific terminology, they would more or less be willing to swallow it (believe it). Tell them its magic and nine out of ten people won't believe it. UPDATE:Kage, I've recently purchased the Gurps Generic Universal RolePlaying System (Third Edition) and the Gurps Magic Book from a second had RPG store. Are these the book you utilized to come up with your system. If no, could you let me know which one. the store has a large selection of second hand Gurps books. I'm sure that I would be able to find them. Looking at the source material may help to pbetter understand the system you are trying to design.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 28, 2004 22:43:10 GMT -5
Erm, at this point...? Not particularly. And as posted elsewhere I'm not overtly fond of the idea that psykers are artificially 'produced', even though I'm fond of the idea of the practice of psyker eugenics in the Imperium! LOL. That's understandable. The MtA magick systems appeals to me as almost no other system. Heck, I like the whole setup of the game enough that it removes my inherent dislike for the WoD universe... <contented sigh> Then we're going to disagree on this since it is, ultimately, a systemic thing more than a metaphysical one. Based upon the 'fluff' and the utilisation of GURPS Magic/Grimoire with the online "Unlimited Mana" rules works better for producing the whole spectrum of activity rather than the 'uber' activities. But then again I personally add the option of using the MtA approach as a 'Greater Path'... I like it that much. But as the whole thing? Not for me. Too many problems. Tut tut, Destecado. There is no distance between points; that is an illusion. You say tomato and I say... Erm, the same thing. As you know, the difference between a 'chameleoline' cloak and a 'Harry Potter' cloak is irrelevant. Well, except in Paradox. Problem here when one is dealing with other 'races' is that one is *cough* automatically willing to accept magic as technology and this provides a point at which the Metaphysics of Magick breaks down. Hmmn, is that an inverted "one chance in a million"? In which case, Pratchett-ism stands surely! Wow, surprised that you didn't just download them! Then again, with the release of GURPS 4E I'm presuming that it has massively crashed in price... Oh, that reminds me: I'm going to continue using GURPS 3E for no other reason than I don't want to shell out the cash for the new system when I have better things to spend my money on. Like a car... That and the online "Unlimited Mana" system, yes. You might also want to see if you can grab a hold of GURPS Grimoire if you can, but that's fairly minor. After all it is not about the specifics, just about what you do with the whole feel... Edit - Incidentally, having another think about things, it would seem more than reasonable to have a 'generic' campaign Threshold of 0. This means that any use of warp energy beyond the psykers own natural ability is going to cause Calamity, a feature that would be broadly consistent with the 'fluff'. (And also introduce the idea of psykers making 'pacts' to increase their power, at least in certain circumstances...)
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 6, 2005 13:15:12 GMT -5
Please note the addition of a 1st draft and very basic "Calamity" table, which I'm not entirely happy with. All of the results are essentially the same as the original author (S John Ross) since they are all rather nasty and appropriate. I'm fairly sure, though, that people would prefer to see more daemons involved, e.g. previous discussion on this topic.
Kage
|
|