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Post by Philip on Aug 30, 2004 4:50:57 GMT -5
GURPS it uses HP and character points, I hate that. Let me explain why... =HP=A relatively light hook to the side of the jaw and many people are out cold, in contrast a very heavy blow to the arms has limited effect. Some people can take blows (with training) to the body all day, others fall to the ground with a light tap! HP would be better as 'Fatigue', but this would mean some people would have massive reserves to stop fatigue, but a flick in the eye and its all over. The mechanics fundamentally do not work in HP systems. =Character Points=Experience of difficult situations may improve your morale/ ego if you were successful, but its not suddenly going yo make your 'skills/ abilities' increase. Training and increase in skills would be down to practice, time and who's teaching. Any advantage from experiencing a failure would be 'lost' unless incorporated into training. =Back to front=That's the thing, in reality we learn by our mistakes not our successes. If you can already do something expertly, doing it again just keep things oiled. If you fail, going out and practising until you overcome the obstacle is what will make you better. =D&D legacy=Experience improving abilities is a legacy of D&D and is so wrong as to, er... lost for words. It was put in as a 'reward' system, a pure mechanic, without taking into account the 'narrative'. The fact that nearly all RPGs still use it, is a testimony to precedence. (A more accurate version would be to tally the number of times a character screws things up, and have them a 'motivators' for their training.) =Examples=Say a character spends 5 years training in martial arts, if done properly the person should be able to use it and not lock up. But this is down to the amount of sparring, as the only way to get good at fighting people is to fight people (sparring is fighting but without landing the knock-out blow) Now if a person knows all the moves of the art but hasn't sparred, then they are no better than most in actual combat. An unskilled opponent who larger and more aggressive will win, due the lackof sparring. This is why boxers are usually better than martial artist (in this country anyway) as they have 'experience' of being hit and defending themselves in aggressive situations. Most decent boxer can cover the groin in a street fight, and are aware of the benefits of kicks to the sweets. Kick to the groin and down they go? Kick boxing. Mind you those martial artist you do it properly can be very good indeed. In close Wing Chung is nice but finding a (real) teacher is hard, harder still is jeet kune do and harder still... Point I'm driving at is, if you did it right practice for 5 years with lots of sparing against many (fresh) opponents, would winning a fight down the nightclub make you any better? (No!) Anyway, enough of HP... =Magic of healing=Narrative drives the mechanics. =Example=As an example using the bit about healing I used before. Not suggesting you take this up, I'm just showing my process and why narrative is important. I skimmed the GURPS for healing rate of HP, but didn't notice it. Assuming there is a 'natural healing rate' I'll continue (double checked it 1HP per day). If I had to use HP... =P2=- L1 regain 2 HP per day.
- L2 regain 4 HP per day.
- L3 regain 8 HP per day.
- L4 regain 16 HP per day.
- L5 regain 32 HP per day.
- L6 regain 64 HP per day God damned super Troll! (Primarch)
This regeneration is 'natural', This is just an example, I think it would really top out at around 4HP per day. Instant healing turns up later =P3= (narrate driven) - L1 Healing - none. Can apply gentle pressure, but has no effect.
- L2 Healing - none. But can close wound and stop bleed out.
- L3 Healing - can set bones ready for binding (not healed but no ill effects)
- L4 Healing - can stitch a person together, put guts back in and seal the wound. Will not bring back the dead.
- L5 Heal 1D of normal damage per turn or 1 point of burn damage
- L6 Heal 2D of damage per turn or 1D of burn damage.
If it was all liner (just an example mind!) =P3= (pure mechanics) - L1 Heal 1 point.
- L2 Heal 2 point.
- L3 Heal 3 point.
- L4 Heal 4 point.
- L5 Heal 1D point.
- L6 Heal 2D point.
Do you see the difference between the last two lists, the narrative driven and pure mechanics? The narrative has a huge effect on how the systems effects function. Yes it narrative, but it is also effecting the mechanics. I usually tell the difference between American and British sci-fi by the narrative stamp in British sci-fi. The narrative limits what is going on, whereas in the American style 'anything' can happen if it's OK by the rules. Bit of a sweeping generalisation but you get the idea
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 30, 2004 19:14:46 GMT -5
GURPS it uses HP and character points, I hate that. Let me explain why... Well, I did ask. However, I pointedly remind you that I said it was the "lesser of two weevils" before continuing on with a reply. HP would be better as 'Fatigue', but this would mean some people would have massive reserves to stop fatigue... This is dependent upon skill and situation. You will find that it is covered in the more advanced versions of combat as well as being referred to in various 'simplifying combat' sections, leaving it to the narrative capabilities of GM an dplayers. Furthermore, the HP scale does not increase by 'level' as it does in D&D and derivative systems. Training and increase in skills would be down to practice, time and who's teaching. While a bit of a glitchy concept, the CP has been "defined" as being roughly equivalent to 200 hours of training following along the Dangerous Journeys: Mythus approach of "STEEP": Study, Training, Education, Experience & Practice". There is no epiphany. That's the thing, in reality we learn by our mistakes not our successes. It's an RPG and, as with other RPGs, awarding of 'experience points' is dependent upon a wide range of things, not merely 'success' or 'failure'. Experience improving abilities is a legacy of D&D and is so wrong as to, er... lost for words. It was put in as a 'reward' system, a pure mechanic, without taking into account the 'narrative'. Erm, I'm sorry. Just wondering whether you've actually read GURPS... While I cannot argue with what you're saying the actual practice is significantly different than the 'superficial' means in which you're describing. Essentially the argument is coming off as slightly 'munchkin' or 'rules lawyer'. A more accurate version would be to tally the number of times a character screws things up, and have them a 'motivators' for their training. Nope... not more accurate. Just seemingly one that conforms to how you view it. What about the times that I've performed a beautiful martial arts kick and it has motivated me to push through the boundaries? Is that failure motivated success, or success motivated success? But this is down to the amount of sparring, as the only way to get good at fighting people is to fight people (sparring is fighting but without landing the knock-out blow) That is in part true, but also has a lot to do with innate tendencies. On this I'm reasonably confident... This is why boxers are usually better than martial artist (in this country anyway) as they have 'experience' of being hit and defending themselves in aggressive situations. Not strictly. You also have a wide range of features coming into play... but you definitely don't get an argument on the ability to 'soak'. Most decent boxer can cover the groin in a street fight, and are aware of the benefits of kicks to the sweets. Any decent martial artist also knows this... Erm, you have trained in a martial art for a reasonable period of time? Heck, maybe it's because I've trained in a number and tend to incorporate them into my 'standard' training that I no longer see the differences... Kick to the groin and down they go? Kick boxing. In close Wing Chung is nice but finding a (real) teacher is hard, harder still is jeet kune do and harder still.. Ah, yes... Surely they have to trace their ancestory back to Yip Man...! Point I'm driving at is, if you did it right practice for 5 years with lots of sparing against many (fresh) opponents, would winning a fight down the nightclub make you any better? (No!) Again, I would suggest that you actually take the time to read the system before making sweeping generalisations at this point. If you've done so already then, well, I suggest that you might need to do it again! Narrative drives the mechanics. No. Narrative drives the story and ignores the mechanics where they are in contradiction. All very reasonable in the 'power gamer' style. As to how it actually works in GURPS in terms of 'magical' healing and assuming that the 'psyker' in question has developed the correct abilities (e.g. not just the ability to transfer wounds but to actually heal them)? The 'lowest' level is actually healing up to 3 HP but one in which it does not affect 'crippled' limbs (e.g. depends on the nature of the wound; it's not going to heal broken limbs, but it will suture minor cuts to automatic scab, etc.). The 'major' form of this does up to 8 HP... Both require significant concentration and 'energy' to be channelled... And that doesn't even take into account "Restoration" (healing broken bones, etc.) or "Regeneration" (healing destroyed, amputed limbs, etc.)... or Resurrection. And these do not even take into account the time durations, etc. Time to read the system... This regeneration is 'natural', This is just an example, I think it would really top out at around 4HP per day. Healing yourself through pysker abilities is more difficult when you're wounded.... Regeneration, or even just Rapid Healing, is another thing entirely. Do you see the difference between the last two lists, the narrative driven and pure mechanics? Oh, I see the difference. The question is whether you see the difference between the mechanics and the quality of the players and GM. Trying to cater to both has been tried but always comes off shallow. Thus you present the system and allow individual style and flair to come out. I usually tell the difference between American and British sci-fi by the narrative stamp in British sci-fi. The narrative limits what is going on, whereas in the American style 'anything' can happen if it's OK by the rules. I'm now beginning to feel sorry for you if this is the type of RPG that you've been involved in... Bit of a sweeping generalisation but you get the idea LOL... I 'got the idea' a while back, but I'm afraid it still misses the point. I merely try and create a reasonable 'mimic' of the mechanics and then allow individual interpretation. You seem to be suggesting that you should take out interpretation of mechanics - the narrative - and instead follow a simplistic system. Or, in other words as we say it over here, "Following the Yellow Plot Road..."
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Post by Philip on Aug 31, 2004 9:55:13 GMT -5
Well, I did ask. However, I pointedly remind you that I said it was the "lesser of two weevils" before continuing on with a reply. So you're accepting a this 'lesser weevil' system because there is no choice? It covered, and it's covered badly (as in matches to anything like combat). As a game it is fine (as in a set of rules to determine a result and have fun while doing it). It's still hit points, you may have less of them to play with but it's still has HP in the system. Munchkin or whatever, it doesn't match anything like reality (and that is the only point I was making), The 'false' concepts are accepted because people want to play RPG and there is no (real, conceptual wise) alternative. I've seen a lot of RPGs and they are all very similar in base concept, even when the mechanics change they follow the same dogma, even if they go diceless. Beautiful as it it 'would have' landed in sparing, beautiful as it worked in real combat or beautiful as in it looked good done in the air as an exercise like gymnastics? Success is enjoyment, the body's reward. The motivator to train in the first place derives from your fears and your desire to overcome. It is very true: no sparring, no good in combat. If you just fight, you accumulate too many injuries to keep fighting, that's why sparring was invented. Even animals know this, look a kittens playing. A martial artist trains far harder than a boxer, if they don't they are not serious. A martial artist should be able to take a body blow from a boxer no problem. Boxing is good for practising slipping and upper body roll and giving you legs. No longer see the differences between distinct styles? Or your base timing and ability is such that you can mimic any style in short time and make to work? No, just do the job. Once was enough. I only read it so I could reply to your thread. That is the problem with RPGs. To clarify, by narrative you mean the description of the game universe? GURPS and my example are different. My example was in relation to the method of design. The table has to be taken in context of all the concepts I am laying out. As stated in the example, a Psyker is like a leaking tap, if they pass-out or are injured, all that happens is that the loose concentration, the mental dam is broken resulting in an increase in the flow. If unconscious they would leak warp energy like a sieve (and heal up, unless dead). This concept is in relation to that specific example, formed to make my point. I'm not saying this is how psykers are in 40K (not yet anyway). In GURPS yes, in my example the warp flow has a natural 'healing effect'. Remember all of this is linked together, 40K in not our universe and the deign concepts all interact (smoothly) with each other. In the Necron thread I'm talking about the whole universe set up, this would mean even those with no warp ability heal due to warp leakage not due to our 'laws of physics' I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with your set-up and concepts. However, as a GURPS setting I'm sure that when you have finished it will be acceptable to RPG players who know their stuff and want to role-play in 40K.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 31, 2004 17:55:57 GMT -5
So you're accepting a this 'lesser weevil' system because there is no choice? No, I actually enjoy the fact that it is well supported, with sourcebooks that tend to be thoughtful, well referenced and superior to others on market. Yes, there are some things that I'm not overtly fond of including, most noteably, skill resolution and the second-by-second break down of combat but these are things that I tend to naturally alter in the game and bring in 'house rules'... No system is perfect. Indeed, what is the standard statement about battle plans, that they don't survive contact with the enemy? Amusingly enough this was used as a variant in the 'Star Viking' sourcebook for Traveller the New Era with the addition that, "Heck, no plan survives contact with reality." Something that I'm sure that you would agree with. All RPGs are an action in abstraction. It is inescapable in trying to represent the complexities of real life on paper. You seem to have a problem with this... It covered, and it's covered badly (as in matches to anything like combat). It's a threshold phenomenon... just how "realistic" are you want to get? Can your character realistically handle an attack with a sword? Should the GM attack you with a sword to see if you, the player, can do so? But hang on, your character is not the player... It's still hit points, you may have less of them to play with but it's still has HP in the system. Again, I would suggest that you actually read the rules rather than skim them. HP are just a means of abstracting damage. Yes, it is possible for someone to die from shock from being shot in the foot, something which is poorly abstracted in most games for a very good reason, e.g. the concept of having fun. One need only, however, look to 40k and see the huge assumptions and abstractions in the game mechanics which are in direct contradiction to the 'fluff' for the reason of 'fun'... Munchkin or whatever, it doesn't match anything like reality (and that is the only point I was making... Oh, in that case you're right. I was assuming a certain level of argument predicated around what is obvious and what is not. Beautiful as it it 'would have' landed in sparing, beautiful as it worked in real combat or beautiful as in it looked good done in the air as an exercise like gymnastics? All three actually. The motivator to train in the first place derives from your fears and your desire to overcome. Hopefully this is a generic you since neither of those possibilities represents the reasons that I train. It is very true: no sparring, no good in combat. So, what you're trying to say is that there is a certain abstraction? A martial artist trains far harder than a boxer, if they don't they are not serious. Ah... so are you talking about a hobbyist martial artists vs. a professional boxer, a professional martial artist vs. a hobbyist boxer, or both hobbyists? No longer see the differences between distinct styles? No, merely the differences and similarities are all incorporated into a good lesson regardless of the style. Good teachers borrow and integrate... good students, for that mater. Or your base timing and ability is such that you can mimic any style in short time and make to work? Heck, no. I've been doing a 'standard' martial art that it often difficult to slip into the 'feel' of another martial art. Doesn't mean that you don't borrow and take the 'standard' into new and interesting directions. Hmmn, the fellow that I trained with seemed to do the job... he had a joy in martial arts which was quite infectious! Once was enough. I only read it so I could reply to your thread. Ah, I see. That kind of makes all the difference there... As someone once said to me on this board, there is a great deal of difference about knowing something and understanding something. (The rolleyes at the comment... ) That is the problem with RPGs. To clarify, by narrative you mean the description of the game universe? The problem with RPGs is that they ignore the mechanics in favour of the narrative, meaning only the storyline? That's not true, necessarily. Rather it is a dynamic concept... they interact all the time. GURPS and my example are different. Self-evidently. In the Necron thread I'm talking about the whole universe set up, this would mean even those with no warp ability heal due to warp leakage not due to our 'laws of physics' Well, that once again puts things in perspective. Seems that I don't enjoy your glue. I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with your set-up and concepts. Since we seem to be taking a stance, all I can say is ditto. For me you're involved in an act of typological sequencing, to borrow from archaeology, without any form of absolute dating. Everything is relative and meaningful only in relation to itself if you accept the assumptions therein. However, as a GURPS setting I'm sure that when you have finished it will be acceptable to RPG players who know their stuff and want to role-play in 40K. <grin> That is very kind of you.
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Post by Philip on Sept 1, 2004 18:38:33 GMT -5
Neither psionics nor magic matches up with the Psyker powers in their overall concept. The mechanics for both are handled slightly differently within GURPS. If GURPS had a 40K licence, I suspect Psyker abilities would be handled differently also.
I think you have some interesting ideas, and I would like to see in how you develop them.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 2, 2004 9:12:22 GMT -5
<grin> Now there's a "Don't agree with thus discussion over with" post... Neither psionics nor magic matches up with the Psyker powers in their overall concept. You still haven't given a substantial reason why this is so, other than your personal preferences. In terms of representation at present there seems little wrong with the 'magic' approach except a semantic problem with the use of the word 'magic'. The mechanics for both are handled slightly differently within GURPS. Self-evidently and as stated at numerous points above. It is for this reason that magic was selected as the most appropriate. If GURPS had a 40K licence, I suspect Psyker abilities would be handled differently also. Really does depend on the author. If they were doing a direct translation they would just look at the superficial and rather limited examples presented in the Inquisitor book... Conversion is easy, assuming you like that list. Me? I prefer depth and options... Heck, if I was to try and do it commercially I would still more than likely use magic but just call it 'psyker powers'. It really just suits more than Psionics and doesn't require the addition of a new system... Of course, commercially you'd have to do what GW said and that means the superficial/limited Inquisitor[ list again. Thank god I don't work for GW... I think you have some interesting ideas, and I would like to see in how you develop them. At present there really is little to develop. As far as I can see it works... just need to be more specific with the various races, and that's something which is going to take time (which I don't have at the moment, e.g. writing up thesis, trying to sort out life for a shift to America, blah blah). Then again there really has been little discussion on the representation itself, just semantic discussions on the use of 'magic' and 'psionics', reference to your relative "P system" and criticism of the abstractions taken in the less relative RPG systems...
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Post by Philip on Sept 7, 2004 16:18:37 GMT -5
You still haven't given a substantial reason why this is so, other than your personal preferences. In terms of representation at present there seems little wrong with the 'magic' approach except a semantic problem with the use of the word 'magic'. =Substantial reason? I have vague ideas=I’ve been thinking about the reasons that I didn’t like Psykers being mechanically the same as magic users in GURPS (apart from it doesn’t feel right to me ). I think magic users are too ‘controlled’ and their powers seem to be on tap. This doesn’t sound right to me, Psykers always seem a bit mad, wired etc, and they don’t come across as classic ‘magic users’. Game wise that can be put down to fluff, colour, narrative or what ever, but I think it should play a part in the mechanism of the game. I’m not a GURPS player, so I’ll just give you my ideas and see what you think. =Ideas=This next bit is purely me trying to distil the vagaries in the back of my mind into an actual idea (and not a shred of evidence to support it ). I not saying you should adopt it or anything like that, I’m just explaining my views as to were I’m coming from. =Magic user=Magic users take mana and create magic. They can control were and when they use it, it is very ‘neat’. If they so choose, they could never cast a ‘spell’ again with no ill effects. (Psykers in essence do something similar in the casting, but I think the way they do it is different and there are other things to take into account.) =Psyker=Psykers on the other hand seem to me to be a bit wilder, it’s as if the warp flows through them all the time and they have to actually concentrate to stop it. It’s like the warp wants to be used, it wants to get into the real world. So they have to concentrate to ‘put their mental thumb in the reality dam’ to plug the flow. =Emotions=The warp has a lot to do with emotions, and it may be that a person’s emotion state affects there ability to control the warp flowing through them. If a Psyker is calm the flows slowly and can be stopped, but if angry it takes a Herculean effort to keep a lid on it (yes I’m aware of the ‘Hulk’ like aspect). This would mean angry, aggressive Psykers are very dangerous. Maybe it the over use of powers that Daemons lock onto? =Difference=Magic users have to concentrate to caste big spells, psykers just have to loose their rag. In contrast to use finely tuned and sensitive Psyker abilities the Psyker has to be calm and relaxed. This is my reason that Navigators have to be so relaxed/ in a trance/ dreaming, because their emotions will interfere with the ‘warp feel’ skill. =Games wise=I doubt if you agree with my interpretation, as I’m going outside the fluff to add depth. In a game how would this affect a GURPS conversion? Not sure, could have a ‘need’ to cast ‘spells’ and not doing so increases fatigue, but the Psyker can’t sleep unless very calm (so sleep deprivation while on adventures). Maybe they have to learn a ‘trance’ skill in order to let the body rest (and maintain control at the same time). Casting wise, I like the ‘unlimited mana’ idea, and would suit even my ideas. =Overall=This may all be splitting hairs, but I do like the idea that being a Psyker isn’t a nice thing to be. It has it own limitations built in, it is tough, it is harsh and no one wants to be one. For a GURPS game this may be difficult, as players will want freedom, and using these ideas would limit that freedom. I think it would be appropriate to have these consequences for being a Psyker in a 40K RPG to offset their fantastic powers. If your players want freedom, they shouldn’t choose to be a Psyker, if the want the power that goes along with being a Psyker then they should be prepared to pay the price.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 8, 2004 18:29:19 GMT -5
I just realised something that is quite... ironic? Despite my preference to keep this side of things going, I haven't actually RP'ed in something like a decade! Well, other than some collaborative fiction such as is - was - taking place in the Anargo Chronicles board. And, strangely enough, beyond the actual writing of mechanics/representations/whatever, I don't actually have the slightest interest in doing it ever again... Hmmn, weird. I think magic users are too ‘controlled’ and their powers seem to be on tap. This is true in the 40k universe as well, though. The 'insanity' is something that can happen, not something that will necessarily happen. (Though I'm reminded of the "tarnished lights" mentioned in Draco/Inquisitor which can be used to support your assertion.) This doesn’t sound right to me, Psykers always seem a bit mad, wired etc, and they don’t come across as classic ‘magic users’. This is a representation thing, once again. One could quite readily require that some or all of the costs for being a psyker be defrayed in either mental or occult disadvantages... Psykers on the other hand seem to me to be a bit wilder, it’s as if the warp flows through them all the time and they have to actually concentrate to stop it. The same can be said of mana depending on just how you spin things and, indeed, the 'fluff' can be used to support both arguments. I would say that a consideration of non-human 'fluff' would while not invalidate this suggestion certainly bring it into doubt. Consider eldar, for example... (At this point I do not see an argument that they are on a different 'psyker scale' in terms of development applying as a valid counter-argument.) The warp has a lot to do with emotions, and it may be that a person’s emotion state affects there ability to control the warp flowing through them. I could see this happening, but again it is not something that I would apply to all of them... It just seems a tad too specific. This would mean angry, aggressive Psykers are very dangerous. LOL... Angry aggressive anythings tend to be (generally) dangerous. Maybe it the over use of powers that Daemons lock onto? That is one of the things that is not incorporated into the description as it stands. You will note, however, that there is a reference to 'blinking' as a means of attracting the attention of daemons. (E.g. the reason that we have lighthouses, or emergency vehicles with flashing lights, etc.) While I am averse to the extra book-keeping it would generate and the overt Lovecraftian imagery, the idea of a 'taint' rating might be useful... A proportion of energy channelled or somesuch but with an obvious 'out' for non-humans, or even trained individuals? Magic users have to concentrate to caste big spells, psykers just have to loose their rag. Problem is I can think of examples from both magic and psykers were this is and isn't the case. Emotional charging has been used in numerous books - including one of my all time favourites, Magician (indeed, the first fantasy book I ever read!) - as a means of accessing greater power... All in all, why I'm agreeing with some of what you said I do not see a reason to go for the idea that a psyker must always 'control' themselves to stop accidentally 'casting'/using their abilities. There are circumstances where this would be the case, but again it would be more exception than rule. In contrast to use finely tuned and sensitive Psyker abilities the Psyker has to be calm and relaxed. This is my reason that Navigators have to be so relaxed/ in a trance/ dreaming, because their emotions will interfere with the ‘warp feel’ skill. Aspected mana... the idea that your emotional condition will engender you to drawing upon specific mana types could also be included here... I doubt if you agree with my interpretation, as I’m going outside the fluff to add depth. The depth is, however, already there... just depends on interpretation. Mentioning the various possibilities are what I actually intended to do with the various examples... Casting wise, I like the ‘unlimited mana’ idea, and would suit even my ideas. I'm guessing you would prefer the Mage the Ascension approach even more... I think it would be appropriate to have these consequences for being a Psyker in a 40K RPG to offset their fantastic powers. Oh, there are... but other than the suggestions above they are not mechanised. Again it smacks of 'Encounter Tables' or 'Critical Hit Charts', something that I have never been fond of. If your players want freedom... As from the beginning, they're not my players.
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Post by Philip on Sept 12, 2004 4:44:34 GMT -5
All in all, why I'm agreeing with some of what you said I do not see a reason to go for the idea that a psyker must always 'control' themselves to stop accidentally 'casting'/using their abilities. There are circumstances where this would be the case, but again it would be more exception than rule. Unprotected Psykers are like 'gates' to the real world for daemons who can just walk through them. The only thing that can stop them is the power of the Psyker's mind. All higher power Psykers are represented as having super tough resolve. This suggests that an unprotected Psyker has no control and leaks warp energy like a sieve, with random discharges of power (lightning/ plasma bursts) and the occasional daemonic possession. Unprotected Psykers are very dangerous to be around, and are hunted for good reason. Full protected Psykers can control their powers and stop daemons from gaining access to the real universe. They come across as controlled, but I imagine they are using force of will to control things (a lack in concentration may prove a problem). A super powerful Psyker, may be so strong mentally that they can control their dreams, and so can sleep without fear of possession. All this sounds different to the usual 'magic user' set up.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 12, 2004 15:38:30 GMT -5
Unprotected Psykers are like 'gates' to the real world for daemons who can just walk through them. You're letting your preference slip in here by the sounds of it. All psykers are potential 'gateways', regardless of whether they are protected or not. There are 'unprotected psykers' who never draw a daemon, and 'protected psykers' who become possessed... it's a continuum, not a generic statement. All higher power Psykers are represented as having super tough resolve. I would agree that strength of mind is going to be important, but linking it strictly to 'power' doesn't work. There should be strong psykers who do not have the revolve... in other words, it is once again a spectrum rather than the black/white that you're arguing. This suggests that an unprotected Psyker has no control and leaks warp energy like a sieve, with random discharges of power (lightning/ plasma bursts) and the occasional daemonic possession. It doesn't necessarily... It's just how you prefer to interpret it. The 'fluff' does not include these random discharges of energy (cf. Black Ship 'fluff'). Unprotected Psykers are very dangerous to be around, and are hunted for good reason. Again, your interpretation. Pogroms occur for numerous reasons... Consider, for example, the blatant eugenics program of the Imperium and the adeptus astra telepathica and astronomicon. Full protected Psykers can control their powers and stop daemons from gaining access to the real universe. Only if they remain "off the psychic radar". To suggest that a 'full protected psyker' can withstand a daemon prince just doesn't cut it... indeed, the 'fluff' has numerous cases where this is not the case. (Consider Sarpedon of Soul Drinkers.) All this sounds different to the usual 'magic user' set up. <grin> Only when you add in the personal interpretation. Even then the system is readily modified to allow for this personal interpretation. It increasingly seems that you're arguing the point for the sake of arguing the point... Furthermore, there are numerous 'magic systems' that allow for a lack of control. It's just whether you prefer to include them. I allow for the option. You predicate your interpretation on it, seemingly. Two and a half weeks to go and then the damned PhD is finished with! Well... until I get the list of corrections, probably major!
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Post by Philip on Sept 12, 2004 16:54:15 GMT -5
You're letting your preference slip in here by the sounds of it. All psykers are potential 'gateways', regardless of whether they are protected or not. There are 'unprotected psykers' who never draw a daemon, and 'protected psykers' who become possessed... it's a continuum, not a generic statement. In 40K weak minded Psykers are a danger, hence the Age of Strife. I would agree that strength of mind is going to be important, but linking it strictly to 'power' doesn't work. There should be strong psykers who do not have the revolve... in other words, it is once again a spectrum rather than the black/white that you're arguing. I do not think the strong mind is directly linked to power, it more a case that only the strong survive. If you are a full Psyker in 40K you have to be very tough and have an iron will. All those who had lots of Psyker power and little willpower are dead or possessed or worse (?). It doesn't necessarily... It's just how you prefer to interpret it. The 'fluff' does not include these random discharges of energy (cf. Black Ship 'fluff'). As only low power Psykers would leak like this, and they are usually dead it would seem reasonable that they do not turn up in the fluff. Again, your interpretation. Pogroms occur for numerous reasons... Consider, for example, the blatant eugenics program of the Imperium and the adeptus astra telepathica and astronomicon. OK, it could be that weak Psykers aren’t a threat, but I think that the Age of Strife points to the contrary. Only if they remain "off the psychic radar". To suggest that a 'full protected psyker' can withstand a daemon prince just doesn't cut it... indeed, the 'fluff' has numerous cases where this is not the case. (Consider Sarpedon of Soul Drinkers.) True, but they would offer up more resistance, though the resistance may be fetile. <grin> Only when you add in the personal interpretation. Even then the system is readily modified to allow for this personal interpretation. It increasingly seems that you're arguing the point for the sake of arguing the point... Furthermore, there are numerous 'magic systems' that allow for a lack of control. It's just whether you prefer to include them. I allow for the option. You predicate your interpretation on it, seemingly. To clarify, weak minded Psykers are ‘out of control’, strong minded Psykers are not. Two and a half weeks to go and then the damned PhD is finished with! Well... until I get the list of corrections, probably major! Feel the deadline; I have a couple of weeks left on my new novel cover, then the next one starts immediately.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 13, 2004 5:08:20 GMT -5
In 40K weak minded Psykers are a danger, hence the Age of Strife. The 'fluff' merely states that it was the simultaneous emergence of psykers on human worlds that lead to the Age of Strife. This was also from a period when it was the singular cause and before the ad hoc bastardisation of the Butlerian Jihad... sorry, Iron Men 'fluff'... added that as a reason for potential technological down-sliding. All psykers are a danger, weak-minded or not, for what they represent: a direct link to the warp under the control of a singular will. Do you trust the person next to you if you know that they can summon up such fantastic energies? No... and that's the point of psyker pogroms. Indeed, it is about interpretation in some regard, but not your (the readers) interpretation. Rather it is about how the people in the game universe see things... In game terms, however, the full spectrum is possible. The old matriarch of an extended family who has the healing touch... The brash youth who touches on a hidden power and who, in a flash of power, destroys everything around him... The known psyker who acts as a constant channel, mutating reality around him in dangerous and unpredictable ways and who is, more than likely, killed out of hand... Or the corrupted psyker who learns to hide their abilities and rises to prominence within the Imperium... A specturm of activity, not just "psykers = bad". And, once more, it's about representation not just interpretation. You seem to interpret "psykers = bad", with little control etc. That's fine; it is your interpretation. The point of 'objective' (well, relative to a given game system) is that you create a representation that mimics as far as possible the full spectrum of activity and then, if necessary, make exceptions when you need them. Or 'add ons' when you need them. All those who had lots of Psyker power and little willpower are dead or possessed or worse (?). Yes... kinda. But a part of this is tied into your interpretation that psykers are a cork, and not a pump... As only low power Psykers would leak like this, and they are usually dead it would seem reasonable that they do not turn up in the fluff. See above with regards to representation vs. interpretation (although all representation includes a certain amount of interpretation). OK, it could be that weak Psykers aren’t a threat, but I think that the Age of Strife points to the contrary. See above. True, but they would offer up more resistance, though the resistance may be fetile. That's a given, as previously stated. Perhaps this is the point that you could actually get over the knee-jerk reaction against magic and consider how the appropriate thread actually represents psykers, and how that relates to the 'fluff' and not just strictly your interpretation? We might actually make forward progress then since some of your ideas are actually quite interesting and ridiculously easy to represent within those rules... To clarify, weak minded Psykers are ‘out of control’, strong minded Psykers are not. Again, the full spectrum should be represented... Strength of will is related to control, yes, but I do not agree with the statement that 'weak minded' psykers have no control. The warp does not inherently require 'mastering'. <grin> "It is not about violence, it is about peace; it is not about movement, it is about balance." Heck, I forget the quote and cannot be bothered to go and dig out the film... The warp is not inherently 'dangerous', just as it is not inherently 'evil' or 'good'. The sea analogy is rather useful... don't throw blood into the sea and you don't get sharks, and some areas don't even have sharks... ick, but you get the point. Feel the deadline; I have a couple of weeks left on my new novel cover, then the next one starts immediately. Feel the major corrections coming... <sigh>
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Post by Philip on Sept 13, 2004 6:12:09 GMT -5
The warp is not inherently 'dangerous', just as it is not inherently 'evil' or 'good'. I think this is the root of our diagreement, we view the warp in a fundamentally different way! As an example: water is dangerous (you can drown) but stepping over a puddle is less dangerous than canoeing down raging rapids. The warp in 40K is all rapids. The warp in 40K is (now) inherently dangerous. I don't think it was always like that, when no 'warp-sig' life existed, the warp was calm and smooth flowing. With the emergence of warp-sig life (Eldar) it started to get a little turbulent, with the rise of humans decidedly choppy, and now in 40K it is full of storms and daemons that can't wait to rip ya face off! =My take=The daemons of the warp are part of its very fabric, this gives the warp sentience and malevolence, using the water example: it would be like the water coming alive and trying to strangle you. This is the fundamental difference, 'mana' does not view the 'magic user' with malicious intent and then try to kill them. The warp is tainted, and just using it corrupts (it is only a mater of time before a Psyker succumbs). The only Psykers who are not corrupted by channelling the warp,do so by channelling a different type of warp energy, and this is limited to very few: The Emperor of Mankind. Possession is just warp energy that maintained its sentience and the Psyker looses control to this sentience. It really is like the Psyker has two souls, and the stronger wins control. =Modifications=As a final idea, and a modification to my thinking since talking to you about this: channelling the warp is like sucking the life force out of a daemon, the daemon is going to resist, attack, make friends or all three. Only sheer force of will is going to control this, and rip the warp energy from the sentient daemon. This would take care of the leaking... [edit] Feel the major corrections coming... <sigh> I wish you good luck! ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 13, 2004 8:00:49 GMT -5
I think this is the root of our diagreement, we view the warp in a fundamentally different way! I'm surprised that you have only just realised this... The difference being, at least based upon comments above, that while I do have a defined interpretation of the 40k universe I try and create a representation that allows for multiple interpretations. From what I can see of your arguments, you're rather hung up on the term "magic" and your interpretation that all psykers are "corks in champagne bottles" (jar them and they explode!) rather than more tempered approach... In some ways it is like the STC:CS and that eldar picture you presented: you don't like it and so you change it to your preference regardless of the 'fluff', either specific references or the more beneficial "balance of the 'fluff'" (i.e. holistic interpretation rather than a revisionist stance advocated by some). (And, yes, I do recognise the hypocrisy (at least to some extent) of that last paragraph! ) As I've tried to explain a number of times above, your 'cork model' can be easily integrated if that is your interpretation... I don't agree with that interpretation, but it is possible to incorporate it. T he point being that it in no way affects the overall mechanics, which is why this discussion is highly frustrating. Pointing at additional things is fine, but it's best done from the 'fluff' as much as possible and then determining whether the representation (mechanically) has the robusticity to handle your own interpretation if you were using those mechanics. The warp in 40K is all rapids. That's entirely your interpretation. The 'fluff' is quite clear that you get differences between one warp and another. Despite some of the tendencies in the 'fluff' to turn it into a fantasy game in exclusion of the original 'fluff', the warp is not just a daemon ground. The warp in 40K is (now) inherently dangerous. Kind of. I would suggest that you don't view it in black and white terms, again. The introduction of Chaos did not corrupt the entire warp, although it has had significant influence on it. Thus there are going to be some locations where using the warp is extremely dangerous, and others that it is not... All of which is included in the system that we really haven't talked about other than your dislike of the term 'magic', once more... I don't think it was always like that, when no 'warp-sig' life existed, the warp was calm and smooth flowing. Remember that the 'fluff' is inherently contradictory on this subject, even with GW's ad hoc patching with the War in Heaven and the Old One 'fluff'. ...and now in 40K it is full of storms and daemons that can't wait to rip ya face off! They are present, yes, but they are not everywhere. Remember that not all threads are predicated around "your take" of the universe. Again, slightly hypocritical but it would be nice if we could actually get back to how the representation is flawed in relation to the game universe rather than your very specific interpretation of it. As far as I can tell - and to reiterate - from what I've seen the system has the robusticity to incorporate even your interpretation. The daemons of the warp are part of its very fabric, this gives the warp sentience and malevolence, using the water example: it would be like the water coming alive and trying to strangle you. Daemons exist in the warp, that is true. But they are not the substance of the warp. This is the fundamental difference, 'mana' does not view the 'magic user' with malicious intent and then try to kill them. Consider the difference between 'mana' and 'spirits' (i.e. elementals and demons) and you'll see a horrendously obvious point that you seem to be missing. The natural state of the warp is 'energy' (mana, if you will; call it ka if you want... or sumun-ami if you prefer otherwise... or whatever!) into which consciousness can emerge. These emergent consciousness are formed from the energy of the warp (mana) but are not the entire composition of the warp; they have individuality. Again, your argument is falling a tad short of both the 'fluff' and the utilisation of 'magic' is robust enough to address the concerns. The warp is tainted, and just using it corrupts (it is only a mater of time before a Psyker succumbs). Partially yes. But it's not all about that. The 'fluff' on the Emperor and the Star Child is evident on this... the more 'tainted' your location the more likely psykers are to 'go bad'. A world that is cut off by a warp storm is not somewhere that I would want to be a psyker... On Terra, though, it wouldn't be so bad. (Erm, apart from the culture that is then in operation. Of course, this kind of points to a failure of the 'fluff', but there we go.) The only Psykers who are not corrupted by channelling the warp,do so by channelling a different type of warp energy, and this is limited to very few: The Emperor of Mankind. Ah, the invention of 'positive' and 'negative' warp energy. Rather cludgy, isn't it? (Rhetorical.) As I've mentioned elsewhere I would be somewhat torn as to whether to represent the Emperor as an 'alpha plus' (Psyker Aptitude 4+) with high Threshold and Recovery, as well as a diverse range of psyker abilities, or whether to move them over to the 'Greater Path' and have him using a fundamentally different type of abillity... Of course, interpretation gets into it: was the Emperor the "most powerful 'human' psyker" in history, or was he something else? Possession is just warp energy that maintained its sentience and the Psyker looses control to this sentience. You mean that it is an emergent consciousness out of the warp energy (mana) given form through various reasons and which conforms to certain 'guidelines' dependent upon the nature of said emergence (basically, you're average spirit/daemon/whatever). It really is like the Psyker has two souls, and the stronger wins control. Possession is entirely a function of will (well, other factors do come into play). This is again incorporated into the above system. ...channelling the warp is like sucking the life force out of a daemon, the daemon is going to resist, attack, make friends or all three. Again, there is the tactic assumption that the warp is composed of 'daemon stuff', rather than daemons being composed of 'warp stuff'. I disagree with the former, feeling that it disagrees with the holistic 'fluff' (although a superficial interpretation of Execution Hour would potentially agree with it) and instead work with the latter. Not only does it produce an overall more interesting universe, but one which is for the most part consistent with the 'fluff'. Once more, beyond the specifics of your interpretation the system seems robust in its representation of psykers in the holistic 'fluff'. I have yet to see a congent reason otherwise. So do I. Buggerations.
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Post by Philip on Sept 13, 2004 9:13:57 GMT -5
Hmm, this is interesting. Trough discussing this I see how differently we see the 40K universe, I do understand what you are saying but it feels like you are deliberately misinterpreting what I have posted (please do not take that the wrong way, I'm sure you feel the same way ;D). I have banged on about the warp etc, as I do not design anything unless I have a clear concept to act as a guide in the design process. This is why I haven't gotten into the mechanics of the game as yet as their are to many variables (but I would not mind in some respects). Reading your posts I take it you that like having all the variables, with no hard and fast 'defining element' to the mechanics, thus allowing the players their own interpretation. In contrast I'm trying to nail it down to the letter, design the mechanic and then let anybody interpret any way they want (the machines acting as a root to control the 'flavour' of the game). I don't think this is 'frustrating' I find it enjoyable, looking into another's mind is fascinating! =My notes=Final my note before we look at mechanics, where I'll be using more your interpretation, I think you have given me enough information to understand the basics of your approach. As a more detailed example of the core of my views on the warp; Humans are part of the 'real' universe, they are made up of real universe matter, they are an integrated part of it. They may be individuals but they are still made from very fabric of the real universe. As such they contain quite a lot of energy that could be extracted... If we reverse the way Psykers and how they function it may give a better idea of what I am saying. Let say a Daemon in the warp could channel the real universe into the warp (like a reverse Psyker. Note: these do not exist, I'm not advocating they should be added in any way, shape, or form, it is purely an invention to illustrate this point). This Damon could use the real universe it channels to create magic effects. What this daemon would be channelling would be chunks of 'reality', so it would be sucking up light, heat, energy, stones, rocks, trees, animals, humans etc. from the real universe stripping it down to something usable in the warp, and then casting its spells. The daemon would act as a 'reality shredder', and any part of the real universe is fuel for its magic. Once again this is just an apology to illustrate a point. Humans channel the warp (not warp 'energy', as I think adding 'energy' is misleading) and as they do so they shed it, reconfigure it and use it to their will. It not surprising that daemons do not like humans, but it would also mean a daemon possessing a person wouldn't be in the warp and couldn't be 'sucked up and shredded'. =Back to the thread=Looking at your design objectives, the current system is OK to represent the 40K universe (though I am not over keen on it as it is very 'open', and would prefer something a little more closed and specific). I do see that leaving it 'open' means that fewer people will be put off as it will not jar with their own interpretations. As a fan based RPG this is most likely the best way (as a said a while back, I think as a GURPS set up it will be acceptable). If I was designing it for GW, I would do it differently (obviously ), though by the very process of doing it 'officially' it supports itself, which is something fan based work can not be. I think if you are going to release it as a fan based RPG, that you are going about it in the right way. Now go and do you PhD! ;D
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