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Post by CELS on Jan 2, 2004 9:52:11 GMT -5
Ok, so here's what we have now. If someone thinks we should drop the idea alltogether, please speak up. And please, explain why The Aoideans are at present some hundreds of thousand years older than man. When the Aoideans first transcended to the warp, they spent many millennia just getting accustomed to their new surroundings, mainly focusing on survival. "Today", the Aoideans are known only to some of the undiscovered human empires in the center of the Anargo sector, as well as some of the most experienced crew of the civil fleet (and perhaps the military fleet). I imagine that the Aoideans were first discovered by man (or vice versa) when some human ships literally bumped into them in the warp. Navigators and whomever else capable of gazing out into the warp, would come home telling fantastic tales of beautiful creatures who drew the attention (intended or not) from predating powers threatening the ship. As time passed, some star travellers started praying for the aid of these beings, who were referred to as guardian spirits of sailors and Emperor's angels, among other things. Certain customs would spread, such as the lighting of candles or singing of songs to gain the favour of these beings. Eventually, these customs spread to the sailors' homeworld, and on the 'lost' human worlds, the Aoideans became part of childrens tales and sailor songs, and the worlds would celebrate 'safespeed day' (just a temporary name. Similar to halloween in some ways). The humans now saw the Aoideans as spirits of the universe or angels sent from the Emperor, keeping their husbands, fathers and sons safe on their journeys. As more and more rituals/customs were performed to please the Aoideans, their powers and abilities changed. In times of special need or on special occassions, enough people would ask the Aoideans for help (knowingly or unknowingly) that the Aoideans found paths to enter the material realm again. They were summoned. Soon, whispers could be heard from the corners of the planets, that some holy creatures had appeared to listen to the prayers of the people, and offer comfort and promises. (Basically, the Aoideans promised to take care of their sailors, to ensure that the people continued feeding them power) As for how the Aoideans could be connected to the Necrons... I suppose the Eldar would see them for what they are, and tell these creatures that their days would end if this threat was awoken. Could the Eldar have the technology to build the gate you suggested, Kage? If this option isn't very attractive, the Aoideans would have to be some 60 million years old, so I could tie them in with the Necrons and perhaps get some old grudges going. So I hope everyone is comfortable with what the Aoideans are, both in a God's eye view and to the humans who know about them. Eh?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 5, 2004 15:13:32 GMT -5
Sorry that it has taken a few days to get back to this... "Today", the Aoideans are known only to some of the undiscovered human empires in the center of the Anargo sector, as well as some of the most experienced crew of the civil fleet (and perhaps the military fleet). Widely travelled might be more appropriate... it might also be more interesting to have them as you originally had them, a 'rumour' amongst that certain class of star-sailor... Navigators and whomever else capable of gazing out into the warp, would come home telling fantastic tales of beautiful creatures who drew the attention (intended or not) from predating powers threatening the ship. An interesting way of dealing with this... you never quite mentioned this before (that I recall). One thing, however: are not the Aoideans going to endanger themselves by drawing the attention of daemons away from a ship? Contrary to 'popular' opinion, the Warp is not composed of daemons, i.e. you do not sail through 'daemon stuff', so any daemon is going to be brought to the ship for a reason... Not saying that the 'daemon siren' thing is inappropriate, just offering more information. As time passed, some star travellers started praying for the aid of these beings, who were referred to as guardian spirits of sailors and Emperor's angels, among other things. Even with superstitious sailors, I would think that it might not be approrpiate to get them to pray to the Aoideans. That is, after all, a heresy against the Imperial Cult. Of course, integrating them into the pantheon or the indiviuals version (as in acculturated forms of the Imperial Cult) might work... In this case, however, it is not the Aoideans that are being worshipped, rather the being that the Aoideans are attributed to... This can be a very important distinction. But, as I read on, I realise that you're talking about non-Imperial worlds at this point. humans now saw the Aoideans as spirits of the universe or angels sent from the Emperor, keeping their husbands, fathers and sons safe on their journeys. Or maybe you were in part talking about indiviuals within the Imperium. In this case please consider the above... As more and more rituals/customs were performed to please the Aoideans, their powers and abilities changed. Ah, a perfect place to reiterate. As you mentioned, it is more likely that anyone viewing the Aoideans would actually have associated them with something that they are more familiar with. As such the 'symbol' (i.e. god, angel or whatever) would get the power, not the Aoideans. ...But this is one of those complex points that has never really been clear in the 'fluff' since it touches on the concept of avatars. Yet they were seen as a boon to star-sailors, not normal people? Again, the chances are that they would have been viewed as a form of being appropriate to the local religion... Could the Eldar have the technology to build the gate you suggested, Kage? Yes. The eldar mastery of the warp transcends that of the Old Slaan, so I'm guessing so. So I hope everyone is comfortable with what the Aoideans are, both in a God's eye view and to the humans who know about them. Eh? There is the problem that I outlined above, but it's not really that much of one... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 5, 2004 20:09:49 GMT -5
Sorry that it has taken a few days to get back to this... No worries Widely travelled might be more appropriate... it might also be more interesting to have them as you originally had them, a 'rumour' amongst that certain class of star-sailor... For star-sailors of Imperial worlds, I'll definitely just make them rumours and myths. An interesting way of dealing with this... you never quite mentioned this before (that I recall). One thing, however: are not the Aoideans going to endanger themselves by drawing the attention of daemons away from a ship? As I said, this might be intended or not. The way things started, I imagine that they may have caught the attention of the 'predators' by accident. The Aoideans, predating warp entities and the human ships would just run into eachother in the warp. The sailors would see the Aoideans, believe that they intentionally saved them, give thanks and through whatever blessings, prayers, rituals they had, and thus channel power to the Aoideans. Of course, they would have no idea that they were actually doing this, nor what the Aoideans truly were. Contrary to 'popular' opinion, the Warp is not composed of daemons, i.e. you do not sail through 'daemon stuff', so any daemon is going to be brought to the ship for a reason... Not saying that the 'daemon siren' thing is inappropriate, just offering more information. Agreed. Even with superstitious sailors, I would think that it might not be approrpiate to get them to pray to the Aoideans. Of course, integrating them into the pantheon or the indiviuals version (as in acculturated forms of the Imperial Cult) might work... But, as I read on, I realise that you're talking about non-Imperial worlds at this point. Yes, but neither the non-Imperials nor Imperial sailors would worship the Aoideans as gods. The non-Imperials probably have some ancient and distorted version of the Emperor as their god (Like the Allfather for Fenrisians, IIRC), or perhaps no god at all, but a belief in some kind of energy (ala buddhism or the StarWars 'force') and the Imperial sailors would worship the Emperor. Now, I think people would perceive the Aoideans differently according to their own beliefs and personality. An Imperial Preacher might see them as Angels of the Emperor, sent out by Him On Earth. A non-Imperial sailor might see them as gentle spirits that are part of the harmonious lifeforce of the Universe or something like that, or perhaps as their own forefathers, protecting and watching over their descendants. I think this is what you meant as well. Or maybe you were in part talking about indiviuals within the Imperium. In this case please consider the above... Hm. The idea would be that everyone saw the Aoideans as they wanted to see them, in a way that fitted their own beliefs and wishes. I suppose that if the Aoideans were made guardians of the tombworld, they might reveal their true form from time to time. Especially to the Eldar, who might see through their projection. Do you perhaps have an alternative to my idea, that would work better? As you mentioned, it is more likely that anyone viewing the Aoideans would actually have associated them with something that they are more familiar with. As such the 'symbol' (i.e. god, angel or whatever) would get the power, not the Aoideans. Hmm... I don't think so. Cults of Tzeentch often appear to be something they're not, but they still empower Tzeentch, even if he appears to the worshippers in another form or with another name. And worshipping individual daemons or daemon princes of Khorne doesn't just make Khorne more powerful, but it strengthens the individual daemons, no? Yet they were seen as a boon to star-sailors, not normal people? Again, the chances are that they would have been viewed as a form of being appropriate to the local religion... Ah, good point. Consider it changed. This would actually increase their power, as normal people would relate to them on their own behalf as well. Yes. The eldar mastery of the warp transcends that of the Old Slaan, so I'm guessing so. And you still wish the Aoideans to some kind of Guardians of the Tomb world? I'm not quite sure how they would guard it. Perhaps the tombs would be buried underneath the surface, and the only structure on the surface would be the huge gate of the Aoideans.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 6, 2004 6:08:56 GMT -5
As I said, this might be intended or not. The way things started, I imagine that they may have caught the attention of the 'predators' by accident. The Aoideans, predating warp entities and the human ships would just run into eachother in the warp. The sailors would see the Aoideans, believe that they intentionally saved them, give thanks and through whatever blessings, prayers, rituals they had, and thus channel power to the Aoideans. That's a better explanation, true enough. I still have a problem with them channelling energy to the Aoideans as a distinct entity (or rather group of entities). I know that you're after a mechanic for the Aoideans to increase their energy and therefore improve, but perhaps an alternative can be found? Or maybe not. I guess I'm just resisant to the fact that you see something and immediately worship it... (And thus going against my suggestion that if you don't like an idea come up with something else when you say that you don't like it...) Of course, given them a more malign aspect in these 'feeding' could be interesting... Perhaps if they were to take a more direct interest in these 'prayers' and 'rituals', actually feeding off the life energy of the people. Kind of back to the 'soul vampire' concept that is presented in such films as Sleepwalkers and Lifeforce... The non-Imperials probably have some ancient and distorted version of the Emperor as their god... This presupposes that they had favourable contact with the Imperium. This might not be the case, but that yet remains to be seen. Now, I think people would perceive the Aoideans differently according to their own beliefs and personality. That goes without saying. It should also go without saying that they might not attribute it to a deity of some form, but might just see it as a strange energy fluctuation... Remembering that it is possible to stare out into the Warp without too much problem (after all, the Tau do it!)... I think this is what you meant as well. Yep... Hmm... I don't think so. Cults of Tzeentch often appear to be something they're not, but they still empower Tzeentch, even if he appears to the worshippers in another form or with another name. A good answer. The question is how they appropriate that energy. And you still wish the Aoideans to some kind of Guardians of the Tomb world? It was an idea I through out. It appears that few people are dibbing into areas other than their own forums at the moment and it would be good to get other peoples' ideas on this topic. I'm not quite sure how they would guard it. Perhaps the tombs would be buried underneath the surface, and the only structure on the surface would be the huge gate of the Aoideans. Nor am I... nor am I. I'm sure that someone can come up with something, however. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 10, 2004 1:13:53 GMT -5
Might as well continue the discussion, as we wait for people to recover from the holidays Or maybe not. I guess I'm just resisant to the fact that you see something and immediately worship it... (And thus going against my suggestion that if you don't like an idea come up with something else when you say that you don't like it...) Yeah, harder than it sounds, ain't it? ;D Anyway, humans do have a habit of worshipping. The Aztecs saw the power of the sun, and worshipped the sun. The native americans wondered at the power of nature, and worshipped all of its elements. If these humans already believed that there were spirits in the universe, that could affect the fate of humans for better or for worse, and then quite clearly saw what they believe to be such spirits, helping them in the warp (and even meeting them on their own homeworld, after some time), I don't have a problem with understanding this. Look at genestealer cults, chaos cults, all the different cults of Imperial creed... people need to believe, and doubly so in a time such as the 41st millennium. Of course, given them a more malign aspect in these 'feeding' could be interesting... Perhaps if they were to take a more direct interest in these 'prayers' and 'rituals', actually feeding off the life energy of the people. Kind of back to the 'soul vampire' concept that is presented in such films as Sleepwalkers and Lifeforce... I have seen neither, I'm afraid. The 'soul vampire' concept reminds me of the computer game Soul Reaver, of which I am a huge fan. The character in this game is something of a renegade though, and any Aoideans who fed off the souls of others would be too. Probably the ones that split off right after the transition, never to be heard from again. It would just make it a lot more complicated if all Aoideans were vampiric. I find a few stray evil doers a lot more interesting than an entire race of them, anyway. This presupposes that they had favourable contact with the Imperium. This might not be the case, but that yet remains to be seen. Ah, you're right- The Emperor didn't reveal himself before the End of the Age of Strife. Hmm, they would probably either worship some universal force then, or perhaps a God similar to the christian one. That goes without saying. It should also go without saying that they might not attribute it to a deity of some form, but might just see it as a strange energy fluctuation... Remembering that it is possible to stare out into the Warp without too much problem (after all, the Tau do it!)... I kind of imagined that the Aoideans would willfully project an image that made everyone see them as something 'good'. Of course, if they did not, I suppose that one might see them as mere energy fluctuations, and psykers would see them in their 'true form'. A good answer. The question is how they appropriate that energy. A good question... I'll probably set about answering this when I start working fully on the Aoideans. Right now, I'm just concerned with whether the idea is approved by everyone. Appropriating energy isn't really as critical as the main concept.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 10, 2004 9:57:45 GMT -5
Might as well continue the discussion, as we wait for people to recover from the holidays It seems rife over the various boards... no-one is replying. Then again Portent has seen better days. How many interesting threads are active on that board at the moment. Erm... Anyway, humans do have a habit of worshipping. The Aztecs saw the power of the sun, and worshipped the sun. The native americans wondered at the power of nature, and worshipped all of its elements. Admittedly this is true. I'm just saying that it is the assumption that they will do this that gets my goat, as it were. I think it is a flawed assumption and other alternatives are a possibility... that is all. ...I don't have a problem with understanding this. That's because it is not at all difficult in understanding. The character in this game is something of a renegade though, and any Aoideans who fed off the souls of others would be too. It was but a suggestion to bypass the whole 'energy through worship' suggestion. It would just make it a lot more complicated if all Aoideans were vampiric. I find a few stray evil doers a lot more interesting than an entire race of them, anyway. Although there is the suggestion here that the relationship is parasitic... this need not the case. Symbiosis is also a possibility. Ah, you're right- The Emperor didn't reveal himself before the End of the Age of Strife. Hmm, they would probably either worship some universal force then, or perhaps a God similar to the christian one. Well, technically he did reveal himself before the end of the Age of Strife but there is no way that this information would have spread. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 11, 2004 9:26:25 GMT -5
It seems rife over the various boards... no-one is replying. Then again Portent has seen better days. How many interesting threads are active on that board at the moment. Erm... Well, there's the Rainbow Warrior thread....... ;D Admittedly this is true. I'm just saying that it is the assumption that they will do this that gets my goat, as it were. I think it is a flawed assumption and other alternatives are a possibility... that is all. Gets your goat?? *looks up goat* " A kind of small, horned animal"..... Hmmm... Aye, other alternatives are a possibility. Afraid I don't have any though. I shall wait for others to make an appearance, however unlikely.
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Post by randski on Feb 2, 2004 15:13:02 GMT -5
eyes? or did i miss it in your description? if so, so sorry,
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Post by CELS on Feb 2, 2004 15:59:26 GMT -5
Say what, Jud? I didn't quite get that.
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Post by randski on Feb 2, 2004 18:31:56 GMT -5
Say what, Jud? I didn't quite get that. ..........in your description you didn't mention the eyes,on the side of the head?top,bottom,or middle?.......past tense ;D i've just read your comment(about the gorilla's head) so now i got the idea in my head i'll get on and have another go,.....later
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Post by Destecado on Apr 12, 2004 17:14:20 GMT -5
I think that we should make this race contemporaries of the Old Ones. This is not to say that they were created by the old ones or helped them in their war. They were just around at the same time.
They should should be a peaceful society like the one you described. i see them as explorers who had roamed the entire galaxy to learn and understand. Eventually they returned home to their world or group of worlds.
Or how about this as a though, they took their worlds with them. They were interested in seeing the galaxy, but did not want to leave home, so they took home with them. Once they had accumulated all of the data possible in this galaxy, there aroze the question what next.
They of course knew of the existance of other galaxies in the universe and also of other dimensions, the warp being one of them. Perhaps the culture reached a point prior to the war where it descided to carry on its search for knowledge or maybe for their concept of god by looking in other dimensions close to our own, or in other galaxies.
They were long gone by the time of the war in heaven. I din't really like the idea of them waiting to be destroyed. Those that left for other galaxies had to go by means of normal space. Perhaps warp travel was unknown to them. Those that transcended our reality and asscended to the warp, pulled therir world through with them.
All that they had learned had not prepared them for warp space. Its very essence was change. One could mold reality about them with but a thought. Those that left for other galaxies are not important to this discussion. It is those that went into the warp that are important.
You could still have the scism occur, but what if the group that leaves the world change over the centuries and become the enslavers? The most recent Whte Dwarf (#291 US) has creature creation rules. It also lists several kinds of creatures, one of them being Enslavers.
The enslavers are rare, as would be the renegades who left their home world. From what I've seen, they are also a match for alot of the entities you would encounter in the warp, including demons.
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Post by CELS on Apr 13, 2004 3:24:31 GMT -5
I think that we should make this race contemporaries of the Old Ones. This is not to say that they were created by the old ones or helped them in their war. They were just around at the same time. Why's that? I wanted to make them old, but Kage was worried that they'd be too old and mess with the whole War in Heaven thing. They should should be a peaceful society like the one you described. i see them as explorers who had roamed the entire galaxy to learn and understand. Eventually they returned home to their world or group of worlds. That would make sense, yeah. What do you see them doing when, inevitably, running into hostile aliens then? If they were contemporaries of the Old Ones and C'tan, they wouldn't have to go far for that. Or how about this as a though, they took their worlds with them. They were interested in seeing the galaxy, but did not want to leave home, so they took home with them. Once they had accumulated all of the data possible in this galaxy, there aroze the question what next. This makes them too powerful for my liking... If these were a galaxy-spanning race with such awesome power, it'll be stranger that no one has heard of them and that they fell so far. They of course knew of the existance of other galaxies in the universe and also of other dimensions, the warp being one of them. Perhaps the culture reached a point prior to the war where it descided to carry on its search for knowledge or maybe for their concept of god by looking in other dimensions close to our own, or in other galaxies. I'd want the knowledge of the warp to be the key to the power of the Aoideans, so they wouldn't first explore the galaxy, and then the warp. It would rather be the opposite. They were long gone by the time of the war in heaven. I din't really like the idea of them waiting to be destroyed. Those that left for other galaxies had to go by means of normal space. Perhaps warp travel was unknown to them. Those that transcended our reality and asscended to the warp, pulled therir world through with them. Hmm... cool. I didn't think of the possibility of getting a warp storm to swallow their planets, nor to escape to other galaxies. I like both ideas. But I must insist that they knew warp travel very well. All that they had learned had not prepared them for warp space. Its very essence was change. One could mold reality about them with but a thought. Those that left for other galaxies are not important to this discussion. It is those that went into the warp that are important. Indeed! You could still have the scism occur, but what if the group that leaves the world change over the centuries and become the enslavers? The most recent Whte Dwarf (#291 US) has creature creation rules. It also lists several kinds of creatures, one of them being Enslavers. I'm pretty sure this would upset most old-timers. It would be like inventing the race that created humans. Would not sit right with a lot of people. The enslavers are rare, as would be the renegades who left their home world. From what I've seen, they are also a match for alot of the entities you would encounter in the warp, including demons. They are capable of holding their own, which is why they're still alive. They're far from invulnerable though, hence the nice imagery of the Chaos armies going to war against the Aoidean bastions in the warp, kind of like the Legions of Hell going to war against Heaven.
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Post by Destecado on Apr 13, 2004 10:41:25 GMT -5
Why's that? I wanted to make them old, but Kage was worried that they'd be too old and mess with the whole War in Heaven thing. The way I see it, they left before the War in Heaven occured. Perhaps was the build up to the War in Heaven that cause them to leave. That would make sense, yeah. What do you see them doing when, inevitably, running into hostile aliens then? If they were contemporaries of the Old Ones and C'tan, they wouldn't have to go far for that. I view the culture as militant pacifist or at least perhaps a faction of them was. A standard pacifist beleives in doing no violence onto others. The idea of a militant pacifist is one who also makes sure that others can not do violence to themselves or to others. Perhaps they tried to mediate the growing hostilities between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr or other factions. rather than coming in with guns blazing I see them taking up postions between fighting elements and activiely obstructing war. Maybe jamming communicvations or having weapons that shut down the power source of combatants equipment. Although they have not develope what most races would consider weapons, the Aoideans are far from defenseless. As stated above, their technology would be centered around strong defenses as well as technology to neutralize the weapons of other races. For the most part they try to stay out of the way of the younger races, who they recognize must be allowed tomake their own mistakes. It is the only way that they will learn and grow. They would find the meddeling ways of the Old Ones abhorant. Actually it brings to mind an good metaphor. Imagine the galaxy as a garden and each race as a differnt kind of flower. The Old Ones approach to gardening is plant given races in specific areas and make them grow in the patterns they wish, to make an orderly garden where each type of flower is fit into an over all pattern. The Aoideans on the other hand prefer the pattern to find its self. If you care for the garden and let it grow as it will. The best example of this type of galaxy would be a field of wild flowers. they mix and merge creating their own patters. Beauty and patterns come from the apparent disorder. The Old Ones approach divides the races and sets the almost at odds with eachother. The Aoideans beleive in the merging or interaction of the races to make a cohesive whole. This makes them too powerful for my liking... If these were a galaxy-spanning race with such awesome power, it'll be stranger that no one has heard of them and that they fell so far. Actually one way to best describe this is actually something that was mentioned about them when they become the warp ghosts. Each race sees them in a different way or in the way they want to see them. Being almost complete pacifist, they would also want to avoid the possibility of mental trauma to a race. To have your war stopped by some great alien force might cause fear and more mistrust of those different from yourself. Much of what they do to prevent war is clandestine. They do not want credit or to be worshipped, their sole purpose is to help others reach the level they have attained. They are an advanced race, perhaps they have the ability to manipulate and change their body. they can mimic the appearance of other races. If not an actual physical change, then perhaps a psychic hologram that makes those around them see what they expect to see when looking at an Aoidean. They are also not a galaxy spanning empire. I do not see them as having more than maybe 1-2 dozen worlds at the hight of their empire. Galaxy spanning empires are hard to maintain. From how the Aoideans have been described, I don't see them as expanding beyond what they could maintain. They also probably had a good control over the size of their population. Low birth rates could be off set by long life spans. Actually, if they have advanced to the point where they can manipulate their physical form, they may recognize a physical form as being transient. when exploring the galaxy they may actually take on the form of the race they are going to study. In many societies there have sprung up peace movements or odd groups or communities that just seem out of place in the overall society. These could be stories of visiting Aoideans or at least some of the visions or revelations that these leaders pruport to have could have from the Aoideans. I'd want the knowledge of the warp to be the key to the power of the Aoideans, so they wouldn't first explore the galaxy, and then the warp. It would rather be the opposite. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Eventually I agree that they would find warp travel, but the idea of moving their worlds to the warp does not occure till later, when they have already exhausted all possibilities of ending the War in Heaven. I see them as leaving before the war occurs. They are not abandoning the younger races to their fate. Instead they are moving to a place where they feel they can help them, without becoming embroiled in the war themselves. This is also a reason that no artifacts of their culture have been found. They took their worlds with them. There may be the rare outpost or something, but they were pretty thoroughwhen they left. I'm pretty sure this would upset most old-timers. It would be like inventing the race that created humans. Would not sit right with a lot of people. It may be a little upsetting to some, but no more upsetting than some of the in consistancies created by GW. We could always say it is only one possibility to how the enslavers were created. the idea does have some rationalization though. The Aoideans have had factions, but most governing has always been by conscensous. the enslavers could be descendants of the militant pacifist faction. siting in the warp watching the attrocities commited could harden even the hearts of the Aoideans. The militant pacifists felt that direct action needed to be taken in order to stop the war. This was a radical view for most of the Aoideans who always worked from behind the scenes. It may have lead to a scism in the culture. The militant pacifist eventually evolving or devolving (depending on your view point0 into the enslavers. The others descided to wait out the war and planned to help those that survived rebuild. Going back to the garden metaphor. Even if a field is burned by a brush fire, the burnt remains act to add nutrients to the soil which will allow it to flower anew in the future. Maybe their have had something to do with the emergence of the Tau and the idea of the Greater Good. It was after all the rise in warp storms around Tay Space that saved them from being wiped out by the Imperium. Who is to say that the warp storms occured randomly. Why couldn't the Aoideans be able to manipulate warp storms?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 13, 2004 11:36:14 GMT -5
I again add my insistence that the Aoideans are not 'contemporaries' of the Old Slann. Whether they are older than the eldar or not is less important. Since the Aoideans were designed to tie into the 'Heart of Anargo', that is a concept that needs addressing. (And to be honest I need some time to remind myself about the Aoideans. I've completely forgotten about them!) Kage
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Post by CELS on Apr 13, 2004 11:50:45 GMT -5
I just wrote.. a very long reply... but.... it was over 10,000 characters.... and was lost.... To be continued...
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