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Post by CELS on Jun 3, 2004 2:04:49 GMT -5
Though I really wanted to finish the draft for my ork article without your help, I've come to realize that might be a waste of time, because of the question of ork reproduction.
As you all know, the fluff on ork reproduction changed drastically in 3rd edition. I believe the orks were supposed to carry their offspring in external pouches in the early editions, something which was changed to reproduction through fungus spores.
As you also know, a lot of ork fans (and people who already didn't like the orks) have protested about this fungus idea, calling it lame, unrealistic or both.
For the record, I wouldn't call it either of those things (you may begin flaming), but then again, I'm no scientist.
To the point.... While Kage proposes that I find a so-called 'transparent ' solution to this problem, something that one may embrace as canon or readily ignore, since it doesn't directly seek to contradict and replace established fluff, I'm slowly realising that this is difficult, if not impossible.
Therefore, I'm proposing that we snatch some ideas from the old fluff, some of the new, and create a compromise that ork fans and haters can easily accept, and which is similar enough to the latest fluff in Codex Orks (3rd Edition) to explain why the Genetor-Major Anzion could be so wrong. In other words, we can't suggest that the Orks actually lay eggs in nests built in trees and mountain crags, because that doesn't make sense when you look at Genetor-Major Anzion's theory. He couldn't have been that far off.
Now.. my proposal... we know that orks have snotling and gretchin offspring (and maybe vice versa), so I started thinking about how this could be explained without using the silly spore dispersal concept. I came to remember what I'd learned in my year of studying psychology, reading about Down's syndrome and other chromosome-related disorders. I remembered disorders such as Klinefelter syndrome and Turner syndrome which drastically influence the growth of the human body. A woman with Turner syndrome will be rather short with special facial features, and a man with Klinefelter syndrome has especially long arms and legs compared to other men (and breasts)
So I was wondering... could it be that Gretchin and Snotlings are actually 'orks with chromosome disorders', engineered by the Brainboyz? But instead of happening with each 1000-2500 births, it happens with 1 of 3 or something.
Of course, I'm still stumped about the actual process of reproduction. Introducing a male or female sex to the ork race would be as problematic as it would be lame, so they're definately a single-sex race. So what do they do? Do they lay eggs? Do they have both 'male' and 'female' reproductive organs internally, and grow offspring in external pouches?
What about the many observations of groups of fully grown orks emerging simultaneously from the ground? Do orks bury undergrown and enter a hibernation-like state when reproduction begins? Perhaps they surround themselves with membrane with a symbiotic relationship with a fungus, and then use this fungus to nourish themselves while in this hibernation-like state of reproduction? This would explain why you see surface fungi near sites of ork reproduction...
What do you say? Constructive posts please.
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 3, 2004 2:41:40 GMT -5
I'm quite happy with the 'modern' fluff as it stands. Though it begs the question of how a water-heavy creature can quite happily survive under desert sands and so on.
This seems a particularly difficult topic to fudge.
How about:
When an Ork is near to death, and indeed afterward, his body begins to develop large numbers of small cysts embedded in the outer musculature, below the skin. These cysts contain asexual germ cells which perform the rough function of the blastocyst in humans (note to readers: the blastocyst is the basic 'ball' of cells which develops into an embryo inside the womb). Orks also shed algal spores in amongst dead skin cells throughout their life, which are blown on air currents around the habitat which they occupy. When these spores settle on an Ork corpse, they reactivate and multiply rapidly on the decaying flesh, simultaneously invading the germ cells contained within the reproductive cysts. This stimulates the germ cells to begin division and differentiation in a similar manner to human embryonic development. At a given point of development, the embry extends an appendage through the host corpse and into the substrate on which it lies, then proceeding to migrate into an enlarged tuber-type structure located just under the ground. While this structure develops resembling many varieties of flora, gestation continues inside the swollen body. After a remarkably short period, one or more small facsimiles of the parent Ork emerge from the nurturing tuber. These juveniles, though not the same species as the common Snotlings and Gretchin, are practically undistinguishable from these smaller Orkoids until further growth occurs and the Ork reaches the sub-adult and adult phases.
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Post by Lordof on Jun 3, 2004 3:12:02 GMT -5
I still find that Orks being a fungal based species is pretty good.
The Ork fungal spore could be said easilly to contain an asexual reproductive cell.
And i would think that they would "Mate" in much the same way as grasses do (releasing relevant spores to the wind and hopind it lands on the right grass to fertilise it)
Also what do you think about saying that an Orkoid which has a hyperactive spore generation would develop less in stature as more energy is put into producing spores.
This can easilly explain the mass proliferation of Squigs in comparison to Orks and the larger numbers of Grots in comparison to Orks. These would simply be mutated orks whose system burns up too much energy for them to develop beyond an early physical stage.
Or you can have it that the mutation stops development earlier so Squigs are really just premature births and the Orkoid strain is hardy enough for them to live. Grots can also fit into this as They simply have less severity of the mutation/condition.
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Post by zholud on Jun 4, 2004 8:18:02 GMT -5
Let me wonder off topic first. I am not Ork player, but I like and even collect WHFB goblins, who are a little bit different, so my opinion is probably both unprofessional and biased.  I generally have no problems with Orks reproduction. Spores – great, why not? Many opponents came from impossibility to get enough energy – see Philip Jose Farmers World of Tiers on problems with Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars series where Martians lay eggs and the eggs cannot develop even in Earth-like conditions in hot jungles… he can try to add evolution of Orks, which is hard w/o sexes. We should find the way to exchange genes between the best Orks. Nothing better to think out at the moment.  |
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Post by CELS on Jun 4, 2004 8:27:33 GMT -5
But I was thinking that since the Old Ones created the Orks as the ultimate soldiers, they didn't want them to evolve. They wanted them to stay in their original form as long as possible. Is that unreasonable?
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 4, 2004 8:51:44 GMT -5
Does anybody have any comments for my idea? It'd be nice to get some sort of response...
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Post by CELS on Jun 4, 2004 9:04:43 GMT -5
Now you know how I feel  I'm just waiting for everyone to speak their mind before I offer my opinion. I've invited Kage, Minister and Sikkukkut to join the discussion, so when they've posted, I shall speak my mind. Patience |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 4, 2004 9:30:50 GMT -5
CELS, my main reason for not replying is failure to understand what you're on about...
IMO this kind of thing needs explanatory prose to present ideas properly.
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Post by CELS on Jun 4, 2004 9:44:02 GMT -5
That's ok, I wasn't really waiting for you now Perhaps I can explain what I'm "on about" if you formulate some specific questions? It's hard for me to explain, otherwise. Even more difficult when you don't even let me know that you don't understand what I'm on about. Here's a shot in the dark though; If you're wondering why I start talking about chromosome disorders in all of this, it was merely an attempt to find an alternative to the entire fungus-spore concept. I've spoken to people who preferred the old fluff when the orks carried their offspring in pouches, rather than orks being born as fungus, so I was trying to compromise. |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 4, 2004 10:35:37 GMT -5
Erm... Welll...All well and good, but I don't really see how anything you've suggested would actually change anything. Subspecies of Orkoid is determined by chromosome arrangement? erm...great? It might well be, but it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. Pouches? Well, I've partly tried to integrate that into my adaption with the cysts and all. Other than that, it's nice and neat so that it's not the Orks that reproduce by spores, it's the fungus |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 4, 2004 10:52:14 GMT -5
Out of interest, I think that Sojourner's idea is extremely interesting. Symbiosis with algal flora and mimicry of floral morphology seems a nice out since one of my main problems was... they're a plant!... no they're a "mammal"... no they're a plant! Blah blah. One has to question where they're getting their nutrients from. The original body coupled with a photosynthesis analog? Nitrogen fixation!?  I'm presuming that they have a 'standard' skeleton shared with other races? Also, how does the substrate accommodate an expanding 'orkoid' as it grows? Just some thoughts... I'm trying to be good since I'm not overtly fond on the orks. But I really quite like Sojourner's idea. Just hope that the others can positively contribute! ;D Kage |
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 4, 2004 11:06:41 GMT -5
Physical destabilisation by the action of small burrowing squigs I'm considering the 'fungus' aspect of their physiology as being more like a virus - it implants its DNA into host cells and uses them to express its characteristics, the difference being that the 'virus' is symbiotic and hence expresses itself in ways beneficial to both. Now I think, Squigs can explain away a lot of Orkoid reproduction... Suppose the gestative tuber gives off 'something' which attracts small burrowing squigs inhabiting the substrate towards it, which then proceed to die in the soil surrounding at a considerable rate, then being rapidly broken down and liquefied into a soupy sludge which bathes the tuber and allows it to draw nutrients. Also noting that the Ork 'baby' produced is pretty small. |
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Post by Destecado on Jun 4, 2004 11:42:33 GMT -5
I've actually always prefered the plant or fungus approach to the orks over the pouch concept. Orks have never really struck me as having the right temperment or mentality for rearing young. It therefore becomes necessary for the young to have a fighting chance right from the start.
As to the question of size, water must be important for their growth. One of the things that always intrigued me about Gorkamorka is that if you look at the ork models, they are slightly smaller that the standard ork models. Could this be just a modeling difference or perhaps the orks of Gorkamorka are slightly smaller due to lack of water sources or lack of nutrients.
Similarly Nobs are much larger than average orks. I think that orks might be similar in nature to rats or other rodents. Given access to a rich food source, rat can grow to phenomenal sizes. Orks similarly continue to grow from snotling to grot and beyond.
It may be a pecking order where those that came first get the most food or the more aggressive ones get the most resources. This pecking order creates its own chain of command with some not progressing beyond the snotling stage while others evolve into gretchin or if given enough food evovle into orks.
It could also be that there are several different kinds of spores that work in combination. The way I veiw orks is probably best described as clones. The snotlings are clones of the original "parent" that provided the spores for their gestation.
They need moist areas in which to form and evolve. This may explain why they burst from the ground in dry areas. In the desert, you can dig down to the water table. They may be burying the growning snotlings in the moist earth.
It could also be that they develope like frogs (ok fungus frogs) The Squigs might be the first step in their developement (like the frog as a tadpole) . Next they develope into snotlings. From snotlings they can develope into gretchen and then orks. It could be a matter of how long they stay in the "cocoon" or other enviromental factors that may halt their developement in any one of these stages.
It may be that the nacent orks are removed from their cocoons by those outside when they reach a certain stage of developement. They are made to fit a given task, so if they need more snotlings, they will pull them out while they are still in the snotling stage then letting them further develope. Once out of the coccon, the "ork" becomes locked into what ever stage of developement they were in.
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Post by CELS on Jun 5, 2004 1:14:55 GMT -5
Right... I'm going to assume that Sojourner's tone wasn't such as I originally perceived it to be. I agree that there is a lot of merit to Sojourner's idea, since it is consistent with GW's spore-concept to an extent, and explains why you have fresh orks popping up from the ground after battles. There are two problems though, as I see it. First, it only lets the Orks reproduce through death. That would slow the rate of reproduction considerably, and maybe have some strange effects on evolution..  Second, it doesn't explain why you have the whole spectre of orkoid races... Now... how does the chromosome concept change anything? Well, I've never really understood how the orks could have gretchin, snotling and squig offspring, if they have entirely different genetic composition. The chromosome concept was an explanation for it. You're suggesting, Sojourner, that the orks are another species than gretchin and snotlings. Not only does this contradict the fluff, but it also makes the orks less robust as a species, since ork society needs grechin and snotlings to fully function. To be honest, the fluff also says that squigs are part of the orkoid race, but this I'm not entirely keen on. Not only would orks, gretchin and snotlings rise from the ground, but also sniffer squigs, squighounds and squiggoths!! Seems very odd to me. To answer Kage's question... the ork skeleton is similar to that of humans, except of course that it is genetically engineered for war, so they have plates of bone protecting their spine, etc. I guess it's very similar to the skeleton and black carapace of Space Marines, actually. How does substrate accommodate an expanding 'orkoid' as it grows? I hope I understand this question correctly. You're asking how the body of the dead ork has enough nutrients to support the life of the several orkoid offspring? If yes, I once again suggest the plant-solution. Dead orks are overgrown with fungus, effectively becoming plants that feed nutrients to the growing orkoid offspring. Alternatively, the dead parent's body decomposes, and each offspring grows a membrane that draws nutrients from the soil, as seen in Codex Orks. Sojourner asks how a water-heavy creature can quite happily survive under desert sands. Well, can they? Codex Orks says that they will only grow under the right conditions. "... dank, dark locations... " "Caves and forests are the most successful spawning sites for Orkoid spores" Of course, it does go on to say that they will be able to survive "even in the most arid conditions", but we'll take that with a pinch of salt. Maybe a few snotlings pop up, who go on to find a more humid climate, where they die and 'give birth' to orks, gretchin and snotlings. Destecado, the GorkaMorka ork models are smaller than the current ork models because all the old ork models were smaller than the current ones. If you look at the 2nd Edition plastic Goffs, they're far from the size of the latest plastic orks. I don't really like the idea that gretchin are really just well-fed snotlings, and orks well-fed gretchin. If this was the case, you would see more creatures that were somewhere in between in size. Gretchin are a lot shorter than average humans, whilst orks stand over two meters tall. They also have very different facial features (gretchin have small jaws and huge noses, orks have great jaws and almost no nose at all), and intellect. Gretchin are actually smarter than most orks (not counting Oddboyz). The fungus frogs isn't appropriate, in my opinion, because there are so many squigs, for one thing. The smallest squigs become the size of humming birds, the largest are larger than mammoths. It's a whole spectre of different sub-species, if not several different species entirely. |
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Post by Lordof on Jun 5, 2004 2:08:08 GMT -5
Well Orks are plant like and fungus like so it could be safe to assume that aslong as plantlife of somekind can grow in the area a particularly hardy Ork maybe able to spawn in the area.
So Orks in extremely arid areas is entirely plausible but these are very much likely to be merely a handful of Orks and not much more than a raiding hazard.
Now I'm also not in favour of the Orky pouch idea as whilst interesting having orks running around with things that looks like bad growths just doesn't sit well with the imagination nor does is it really explain the rapid production of more Orks.
Now For Orks producing and evolving i think that simply put the Larger an Ork becomes (They only seem to do this through constant warfare) the more spores it will shed and the more it will release upon death.
These as with standard genes will all most likely have subtle mutations in them in comparison to their "Parent".
This just means that an Ork which thrives in combat and becomes a Warboss will shed far more spores and therefore is more likely to have those spores germinate in larger numbers.
As to to varying sub specie of squigs i would simply assume that most of these are due to Orks breeding certain squig traits in those squigs they haven't eaten as yet. Squigs would probably be the most genetically unstable orkoid sub specie out there so it will take many varied forms some of which will just die or never develop. Now an Ork breeder would simply choose a squig from the batch which is the most viscous etc. and place it in somewhere such as a dark den or hut where its spores have the most chance to germinate and will start breeding squigs at a rapid rate.
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I'm presuming that they have a 'standard' skeleton shared with other races?
