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Post by Philip on Jan 23, 2005 19:49:50 GMT -5
Eldar Psyker Network
All Eldar are Psykers, so how does that work out in day to day living?
I mean, can the read each others thoughts at will and have no secrets from each other?
Or is it more like that they are all linked up to interconnected mobile phones and can only hear is someone ‘speaks’?
Or is it short range, like walkie talkies (radio)?
Can they use other Eldar to bounce a communication through the ‘psi-net’?
Is each Eldar like a roaming wi-fi connection, able to link up to the web-way?
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Post by Sikkukkut on Jan 23, 2005 20:28:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure I've ever seen anything implying that all Eldar are operant, powered-up psykers. They may be more psychically sensitive than humans, able to respond to the presence of the Avatar and to interact with wraithbone, for example, but I don't consider that the same thing. The only analogy I can come up with is that having super-keen hearing doesn't automatically mean you have a wonderful singing voice. If I can think of a better one I'll post it
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 23, 2005 23:32:16 GMT -5
Just to point out that this (RPG)is not the apprpriate place for this discussion so, after posting to it, I'm afraid that it is going to have to be moved. RPG is not for those threads that don't seem to have a place elsewhere... I would also like to point out that this thread terrifies me, since I'm fairly sure that it will take the eldar in the same direction as hiveworlds and Marines, which is not a good thing! Don't look to the 'fluff' for that answer. You might want to check out 'Fenric's concept of the 'aura' in the ES board, but as posted it requires a great deal of thought to integrate it into the eldar 'fluff'. Only if you wish to take things to ludicrous extremes... So for you that is potentially the truth! Seriously, though, the eldar practice of their native psykers is still the channelling of warp energy, even if it comes naturally to them. I'm fond of the idea that while the might be keyed into the 'aura' (thanks, 'Fenric) of their eldar on a semi-subconscious level, as well as psychic phenomenon in general, any attempt to actively read anothers mind still works as a psyker ability. That means it takes effort... You might want to check out ?Rennie's horrendously poor interpretation of the eldar in Shadow Point for something akin to this suggestion. But I would say that, no, they are not linked up to 'mobiles' as a result of their psyker powers... But then again, the Infinity Circuit does, for me, operate as a form of 'Net and, well, the eldar do have more advanced technology... This is something that is normally atttributed only to fully developed psykers, i.e. those that walk the Path of the Seer. WD127. If you deem this not to be 'operant' then that is your own interpretion just as the contrary is mine. Again, it's the Path that makes eldar get jiggy with psyker powers. Kage
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Post by Philip on Jan 24, 2005 7:10:01 GMT -5
Thanks Sikkukkut, Kage,
Hmm, so they aren’t telepathic at will then?
Is it more empathic?
What about before the fall?
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Post by Zholud on Jan 24, 2005 13:23:29 GMT -5
All Eldar are Psykers, so how does that work out in day to day living? Smoothly… I mean, can the read each others thoughts at will and have no secrets from each other? No… never thought that they are open books… especially not true for darker kin, who’d pay dearly for such an ability – best protection against coup d’etat… Or is it more like that they are all linked up to interconnected mobile phones and can only hear is someone ‘speaks’? i.e. range does not matter? Then no. Or is it short range, like walkie talkies (radio)? Yep, maybe even within nearest hundred metres… for average eldar. Can they use other Eldar to bounce a communication through the ‘psi-net’? Chained or indirect translation? I guess they may re-direct it like we can re-direct someone’s speech…
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 24, 2005 18:30:24 GMT -5
Is it more empathic? What about before the fall? In the 'fluff' (cf. Shadow Point) the implication is that it is not quite empathy either... more a developed form of 'body language'. Of course, I don't tend to rate that novel very highly so take it all with a pinch of salt. And there is going to be no real difference between eldar psyker powers in the pre-/peri-Fall period and that of the post-Fall. While the eldar do not fully develop their abilities unless they walk the Path of the Seer, the standard triumvirate of 'native' powers (psychokinesis, telepathy and psychomorphism) remain...
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Post by Philip on Jan 25, 2005 16:08:48 GMT -5
the standard triumvirate of 'native' powers (psychokinesis, telepathy and psychomorphism) remain... Does this mean all Eldar are telepathic? If so, is their natural telepathic ability only between themselves - Eldar to Eldar – with the seer path as a means to develop this ability further (as in: read non-Eldar)?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 25, 2005 19:02:03 GMT -5
Yes, all eldar are considered natively 'telepathic', 'psychokinetic' and 'psychomorphic'. Check out WD127 on Critical Hit for the specific 'fluff' if you don't have access to the 'fluff' in another way.
For me? Communication is 'innate' and 'free' if you're not talking about direct mind-to-mind communication in anything other than a general sense, intent or whatever. Expenditure of effort means that you can communicate, though not necessarily read another's mind. It would work on other eldar, humans, or whatever.
But that's just me.
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Post by Philip on Jan 25, 2005 19:19:23 GMT -5
Yes, all eldar are considered natively 'telepathic', 'psychokinetic' and 'psychomorphic'. Check out WD127 on Critical Hit for the specific 'fluff' if you don't have access to the 'fluff' in another way. It put forward as ‘empathic telepathy’, which isn’t exactly the same as ‘telepathy’. For me? Communication is 'innate' and 'free' if you're not talking about direct mind-to-mind communication in anything other than a general sense, intent or whatever. Expenditure of effort means that you can communicate, though not necessarily read another's mind. It would work on other eldar, humans, or whatever. So it takes effort to broadcast (speak) but none to receive (listen)? How far do you think this telepathic speaking can travel - close aura, miles, LY - depends on effort?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 25, 2005 23:15:16 GMT -5
It put forward as ‘empathic telepathy’, which isn’t exactly the same as ‘telepathy’. Hence the distinction that I was making. So it takes effort to broadcast (speak) but none to receive (listen)? It depends. Without 'effort' allows two-way communication in a form of enhanced body language. It's the traditional scene where two people are held prisoner while one winks furiously behind the back of their guard, hoping that the other will get the gist and actually make a play for the obvious gun. Except with eldar they would actually get 'flashes' of emotion, image, aura or whatever. This is not something that I tend to represent in terms of RPG mechanics, though. I personally don't like freebies and, when they are there, they are something that is under 'narrative' control. It is for this reason that I'm torn between representing this ability as primarily projective (thus you get no response back unless they also project) and not full, two-way communication. It's one of the reason that the template was, for me, up for discussion. How far do you think this telepathic speaking can travel - close aura, miles, LY - depends on effort? Generally speaking? Depending on 'innate ability' I would say that a reasonable range is around a mile. [/quote]
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Post by Philip on Jan 26, 2005 11:54:56 GMT -5
Hence the distinction that I was making. It depends. Without 'effort' allows two-way communication in a form of enhanced body language. It's the traditional scene where two people are held prisoner while one winks furiously behind the back of their guard, hoping that the other will get the gist and actually make a play for the obvious gun. Except with eldar they would actually get 'flashes' of emotion, image, aura or whatever. So the Eldar ‘just know’ what another Eldar intends rather than actually speaking, a form of ‘knowing’ like in martial arts? I'm torn between representing this ability as primarily projective (thus you get no response back unless they also project) and not full, two-way communication. What would you currently go for if you had to choose? It's one of the reason that the template was, for me, up for discussion. So to get specific about something, or to have a conversation, an Eldar then has to use ‘normal telepathy’? Generally speaking? Depending on 'innate ability' I would say that a reasonable range is around a mile. Sounds good.
Can an Eldar access the Web-way directly thought telepathy or do they need to touch it or plug in – also which would you prefer they did?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 26, 2005 22:55:07 GMT -5
First off, I would like to reassert that this is 'just me': my opinions that, while they are based off the 'fluff', often must invent consistency were none exists through the utilisation of a specific RPG system. This has a tendency of introducing its own bias and while I'm comfortable with that you might not be. At the moment it's advantages 99 disadvantages 1. (Disclaimer: This is not a numerically accurate distinction, and should not be taken as such.) So the Eldar ‘just know’ what another Eldar intends rather than actually speaking, a form of ‘knowing’ like in martial arts? It's not quite that cut and dried but, tenatively and with much reservation, yes. What would you currently go for if you had to choose? Not sure. If you were to go with on representation then merely an 'empathy' ability would be the way to go. But the 'fluff' always seems to have gone further than that, when the issue has been addressed anway and if you ignore Shadow Point. (Please, please ignore that book...) So to get specific about something, or to have a conversation, an Eldar then has to use ‘normal telepathy’? TANSTAAFL. Can an Eldar access the Web-way directly thought telepathy or do they need to touch it or plug in – also which would you prefer they did? Depends on how they intend to access the Webway. One would imagine that 'true Seers' enjoy the ability to do this naturally, while non-psykers would require to interface through the Infinity Circuit. Of course, then you have to see the Infinity Circuit as something other than just a fantasy 'Soul Jar', perhaps even taking on computational functions (which I see as reasonable and likely), but there we go.
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Post by Philip on Jan 28, 2005 21:13:57 GMT -5
Thanks for this Kage, I know you like Eldar so I thought I’d pick your brains while working up my ideas.
One area that still puzzles me because of the implications;
Does an Eldar have to actively listen to hear a telepathic message, if so does the free empathic ‘just knows’ ability act as a ringer?
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 2, 2005 8:14:58 GMT -5
I would have thought that most Eldar could sense that someone was trying to reach them if the emssage was directed at them in particular. However, only Seers can 'talk' to one another without invading the mind of another. Other Eldar are limited to perceiving a simple meme if projected specifically to them with enough clarity. A Seer might be able to warn another of danger by 'shouting' the concept at the individual's mind, which he would be able to pick up in a 'spider sense' fashion. For an Eldar not of the Path of the Seer to receive a contextual message requires some direct invasion of the mind to 'plant' the message there, they cannot hear it for themselves unless trained to do so.
Seers on the other hand probably do it as a matter of course a la Betazoids in Star Trek. A council of Seers won't talk much...
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 2, 2005 19:04:26 GMT -5
Generally speaking the more chat that I get about the eldar the more interested I become in the 40k genre as a whole. For me they are the singular most fascinating race that there is. Not even fixing the Imperium compares to that! And plus, anything that can refine my interpretation of the eldar always gets my vote. Every time that I see something that is superior to my interpretation, I think about the ramificiations and then generally incorporate it into that interpretation. If it actually adds something, that is. This all depends on what they're trying to do. As I mentioned above, I was tempted to change the "Telepathy" for "Mind Sending", that is to say that their telepathy tends to be primary projective in terms of information exchange. That is to say that they must actively project but they can passively receive. "Telepathy", as Sojourner would say, is a 'Seer' ability and one that requires the 'Mind Send' basis anyway. (This means that an eldar cannot actively "listen in" on a conversation held by another. Rather two eldar wishing to engage in 'active' telepathy, must channel energy in such a way as that they are projecting at each other; hearing is passive so doesn't require any expenditure.) The information exchanged in 'active' Mind Sending is, of course, up to the desires of the individual doing the projecting. Primarily the difference between 'active' and 'passive' projection is that in the former you control what the other person sees, while the latter everything is subject to just how they might perceive it at a given time, etc. Disclaimer: This is just a working theory based roughly on a best representation of 'fluff' through the relevant game mechanics. It seems to work at the moment. (E.g. Active telepathy tends to be rare since, as a psyker ability, it still requires the channelling of warp energy. 'Passive' telepathy doesn't...) Aside: I've also just realised that my "working racial template" for the eldar should probably be modified not only to incorporate Mind Sending instead of Telepathy, but also to include the "Empathy" advantage. But there we go.
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