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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 21, 2004 13:47:16 GMT -5
Ick... I couldn't think of a more fascinating title, so you have my apologie for that. Anyway, I was doodling away at money-work today and had the Clan Council and the various ideas for eldar architecture in mind while I was doing it. Anyway, while the doodle is horrendously embarrassing it might be useful for some artist to take up at some point... A quick text description would be thus: At the 'centre' are the chambers proper. It is formed from a truncated pyramid of which the 'top' section is removed ziggurat-style and the remainder actually suspended some (unspecified but fairly small!) distance away. This pyramid is square base. Surrounding the structure in a hexagonal vertex format are triangular-based pyramids whose basal 'width' is relatively smaller than the 'height' (compared to the central structure). Each structure is such that the 'point' of the base faces towards the central structure, while the remaining two vertices are orientated so as to prevent an equal angle between adjacent surrounding structures. On the ground level the surrounding (six) structures are joined by a 'line' (nature to be determined). Near the top of the surrounding structure a single line (walkway) joins from each structure to the central structure, the removed section of which (i.e. that top bit that is removed to form a truncated pyramid) lies atop these 'walkways', as it were. Surrounding this structure is an ellipse whose major axis (i.e. the long one) lies parallel and conjoined (in plan) to the walkway that leads from two opposing surrounding structures. (Incidentally, a 'dome' is formed above the ellipse, but that's a minor point for now!) If a hexagon might be thought of as a square (ABCD) with two equilateral triangles on opposite sides of the square (AEB) and (CFD), then the major axis goes through E and F. I shall call EF the 'equator' for the moment and, as such, use cardinal directions to make things easier. Remember, though, the equator goes from one of the six surrounding structurs to its opposite. Two equilateral triangles (north and south) are formed with their base on the equator, the base extended such that the basal length is greater than the major axis of the ellipse. Thus the triangles do not interfere with the lines of the ellipse and, in essence, form a square. Now imagine that the square is rotated 45 o to form another square and therefore creating a 'lozenge' pattern... Okay, that's the basic structure that I had mapped out. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be drawing a picture at some point! Surrouding the main complex (the ellipse and dome) are, therefore, six equalaterial triangles. These are what I refer to, perhaps misleading (perhaps not!), as the 'gardens'. Each one is associated with an 'element' which defines eldar technomantic (more magic, though) experience: the universal elements of fire, earth, air and water; and the 'spiritual elements' of light and darkness. (Light and darkness are the one in the first triangle, defining their proximity to the function of the Clan Council as walking the line between life and death, good and evil, etc.) The 'Garden of Light' (again working terms; it might not even be a garden per se) is in the north and the Garden of Darkness to the south (remembering that the 'equator' passes through the centre and along the major axis of the ellipse). Thus we have the remaining for elemental 'gardens': north west is Fire, north-east is Earth, south-west is Air and south-east is Water. The 'symbolism' here is that while the eldar's actions are balanced between light/darkness-good/evil, those concepts ultimately define the function and imporance of the 'universal elements' (i.e. spirit/interpretation over matterium/reality). Coming back to the central ellipse, please note that there are six surrounding structures, an allusion itself to the number of Slaanesh. (This, I feel, is still an important number to the eldar.) But the central structure is removed (though kinda joined) from the surrounding structures, thus is the decisions of the Clan Council removed from Slaaneshi influence while still, ultimately, being linked (a reference to the Fall and the nature of Slaanesh). So, first question: I'm rather fond of this, obviously, but I've always had a rather elemental approach to the eldar before the Tau came along and monkeyed around with that imagery. But what are your thoughts? Second question: I call them 'gardens', but what could be contained within these areas? Are they dedicated to a natural interpretation of the element in question (i.e. Fire has desert, Earth has trees)? Or are we talking a bit more abstract. Regimented gardens (in Japanese style) though with sculpture/organisation allusions to the elements themselves? Third question: The above structure on Tir'asur lies on a contra-grav 'dish' that floats above the surface of the planet. The dish will, however, be much larger than the Clan Council structures themselves. What other form might the rest of the area take? Just some thoughts, images and questions...
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Post by Dazo on Jul 22, 2004 5:01:52 GMT -5
Lol as long as it shows the basic concept it dosn't matter, a simple line representation looking down at the ground plan done on ms paint would be enough
What i suppose i really meant was no sharp corners bot a rounder appearance
so water would have streams, rock would be like japanese stone gardens with big boulders, fire might either employ fire or elements ascociated with heat, wood would be tree's ooh like on karate kid whats that tree thing called, metal might use sculpture in the form of plants but all made out of metal, air might have a garden of sound
Ah like the floating palace of evermeet, why not
that would depend on the size of the disk
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 6:24:48 GMT -5
Lol as long as it shows the basic concept it dosn't matter, a simple line representation looking down at the ground plan done on ms paint would be enough I find even that hard since I never use these programs to draw with! What i suppose i really meant was no sharp corners bot a rounder appearance I'm afraid that pyramids do have sharp corners! so water would have streams, rock would be like japanese stone gardens with big boulders, fire might either employ fire or elements ascociated with heat... It's a possibility. Or they could just be symbolically (sculptures, gardens laid out in runes, etc.) with the element in question. wood would be tree's ooh like on karate kid whats that tree thing called, metal might use sculpture in the form of plants but all made out of metal... Well, Wood and Metal are not elements in Western tradition and I'm not using the oriental system... Ah like the floating palace of evermeet, why not That's too specific AD&D knowledge for me, I'm afraid. I just recognise where it comes from. that would depend on the size of the disk 1.5km in diameter. I'm editing to add the URL of a rather quick plan-sketch of what I'm thinking about. Please do not mock it! I haven't drawn in years and, even then, I couldn't draw from my imagination, only copy... I'll put up a direct image in Art, but for some reason Photobucket will not allow me to resize the image down to 25%... <sigh>
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Post by Dazo on Jul 23, 2004 1:08:23 GMT -5
Thae pyramid is almost exactly the same as the one i sketched. And your sketch is fine, so the smaller pyramids dont have the dislocated top then Ok i see what i can do, don't be expecting miracles though
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 23, 2004 8:47:24 GMT -5
Be warned that I have pretty high standards when it comes to eldar artwork... And I've created another version which I shall try and post at some time. Indeed you can find it at the following link...
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Post by CELS on Jul 30, 2004 22:05:55 GMT -5
Right... I have studied your description and drawings, and I have a few questions... 1) Why is the tip of the pyramid suspended (purely symbolic thing, I suspect), and how? I'm guessing grav technology, but from Juddski's drawing it looked to be held up by huge wires or something. 2) What are 'spar's? 3) What is the candle shaped object decorated with a bird / phoenix? 4) What do you mean by the "above structure on Tir'asur"? Will all Eldar cities on Tir'asur hover on huge disks? (Probably not, but I'm confused) My comments... On the elements... To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen anything which suggests that the elements have a special meaning to the Eldar. It does fit them though, but it's... not something that makes further sense, to me. I don't see where this distinction of elements come from. As for the Tau, I don't think this is too big a problem, since the Tau have a very non-mystical approach to the elements. In fact, I haven't seen anything except for the names of their castes. (As a side note, the elemental symbols remind me a lot of 'The Fifth Element', with Bruce Willis ) Edit; Perhaps air and water could be represented by the top half and bottom half of a circle (respectively)? On the structure of the chambers... It's very rigid and clean, isn't it? All very symmetrical and artificial. Not very organic at all. If it weren't for the dome, I'd suggest that this was a Necron structure, at first glance. From my look at Eldar structures, and the Eldar tablet that appears in Codex: Eldar (3rd edition), I think some circles would be appropriate. It makes clean symbolism more difficult, but perhaps the Eldar would look at this in a different manner than humans. Perhaps circles would overlapse, or perhaps it would be the light and darkness which seperate the four elements, or the other way around? Of course, one should be wary of making the structure look like crop circles, since that is the look of Necron symbols... On 'gardens'... I'm a bit undecided about whether it should be traditional gardens with plants and statues to represent the respective element, or if it should be more of a contained, abstract setting. If we go with the latter, I imagine that the 'air garden' would have a lot of artificial winds, and perhaps sculptures and statues with wind tunnels that make lovely sound as the wind blows through. The 'dark garden' might have a lot of shadows, with a very careful positioning of light, making it a very scary looking place. See, this is why it would be better with overlapping circles. No garden would be completely dedicated to its element. The 'air garden' shouldn't just be an empty space filled with air, and the 'dark garden' shouldn't be pitch black, with Eldar tripping and fumbling their way through. Perhaps that is what the circles might represent? There is no light without darkness? That sort of philosophy. Whatever that is
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 31, 2004 13:37:59 GMT -5
Why is the tip of the pyramid suspended... Simple answer is 'cos and "Rule of Cool" and, of course, I'm partial to it. I'm guessing grav technology, but from Juddski's drawing it looked to be held up by huge wires or something. The things that look like 'wires' are actually meant to be walkways, something that after making that quick sketch I was somewhat averse to including. You would have to make the size of the size of the pyramid that much larger than the walkways to make it less hokey... more like the threads of a spiders web than, as you say, supporting wires. The 'wires' as you refer to them, or the walkways. Again, though, see above. What is the candle shaped object decorated with a bird / phoenix? Remember that I cannot draw... that was merely a stylised represented of Clan heraldry present on one of the entrances to the chambers... another one might have a dragon, another a spider... or whatever. What do you mean by the "above structure on Tir'asur"? Will all Eldar cities on Tir'asur hover on huge disks? (Probably not, but I'm confused) No, not all cities on Tir'asur will hover on discs. That's just this structure... Most eldar 'cities' are rather small affairs, generally no more than 5,000... (Even though that seems a rather large number; but that is spread over rather large areas so 'city' isn't the right word!) To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen anything which suggests that the elements have a special meaning to the Eldar. See my signature. The incorporation of the elements is more a reference to the universality of their concept, moreso when applied to 'magic traditions'. It also brings across, for me, the abstraction of imposed belief structure over a more chaotic system... It does fit them though, but it's... not something that makes further sense, to me. <grin> Whatever twiddles your biscuit, basically. This one does it for me if one realises that it is merely a somewhat traditional break down of 'elements'... well, occidental elements, anyway... I don't see where this distinction of elements come from. Remembering that we can include things that are not in the 'fluff'. If we were to conform rigidly to the 'fluff' then this project would not be possible. As a side note, the elemental symbols remind me a lot of 'The Fifth Element', with Bruce Willis ) Well, seem to recall that those were all variations upon the Zener air/water theme, myself. But anyway, there's your answer... that and coupled with some of the symbols used in Nephilim: Occult Roleplaying which had some rather cool concepts. Edit; Perhaps air and water could be represented by the top half and bottom half of a circle (respectively)? To be honest, I'm really not fussed. The runic representation of the elements is not something that I'm remotely interested in, just the concepts behind them and how they might be abstracted into a 'garden'... It's very rigid and clean, isn't it? All very symmetrical and artificial. Not very organic at all. If it weren't for the dome, I'd suggest that this was a Necron structure, at first glance. Pyramids are, however, also eldar structures. Take a look at the infamous "Eldar holds flower" picture. Furthermore, one has to remember that I'm not in any way an artist... The structures are only 'clean' because it is not possible to resolve the detail. The original 'walkways', for example, would look like simple filaments, until you see that the supporting 'struts' are actually wrought into the shape of a tree (with the bark moulded in exquisite detail) and that the eldar walk upon a surface of 'roots' and are somewhat protected by a 'tree canopy', with each roof created in detail... The whole point of the symbolism is something that I overall feel is an interesting point of the eldar. Everyone always plays the "organic" card, which is all fine but horrendously tedious more so for the cliche than anything else. Plus, it's an overt extension of the 'wood elf' imagery where, arguably, a combined 'high elf'/eldar approach might be taken... Thus I consider it to be a version of a fractal (kinda, not exactly obviously)... You start of with a fairly ordered, imposed image and the closer you get to it the more 'chaotic' it gets; the more detailed. Same thing applies with, say, a human bone. You look at it with your eyes and it looks like... well, a bone. Take a closer look (and magically seeing it in section) you see the difference between the outer, harder cortical bone and the fibrous trabecular bone that you find in the 'middle'... Same with eldar structures. It makes clean symbolism more difficult, but perhaps the Eldar would look at this in a different manner than humans. We know that triangles and pyramids are significant to eldar... circles also appear. One might consider the example of the 'stone circle' from, say, England. We view them as 'circles', yet you show their picture to people of certain African cultures and they interpret them as octagons. So what you see as a hexagon becomes another ellipse... Everything is in the perceptions of the viewer. or perhaps it would be the light and darkness which seperate the four elements... They do!
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Post by CELS on Aug 1, 2004 0:30:13 GMT -5
Simple answer is 'cos and "Rule of Cool" and, of course, I'm partial to it. I see. Well, it would be fitting, I think, if you would come up with some symbolic explanation. It makes it that much more interesting. And is this just the rule of cool again, or is there an explanation behind it? That's a very valid point. I did like the idea of overlapping circles, to show that liquid can become air if it's warm enough. And air can even become fire if that is warm enough... But hey, "whatever twiddles your biscuit"... I'm perfectly aware of that, Kage. Some extensions are just more logical than others. To repeat myself though; I'm not arguing against your choice of introducing the four elements. Just offering my thoughts. Do with them as you please. I know they are. We've discussed this before on the ASP forum, and I do believe I posted the picture you're referring to. I'm not saying that Eldar architecture, fashion, etc has a total lack of triangles or pyramids. But it's usually a combination of simple squares, triangles and circles, and elegant organic lines. Whether the "organic card" is tedious or not is slightly irrelevant in my opinion. It seems an undeniable part of the Eldar style. Whether this is GW drawing upon wood elf imagery, or high elf imagery (the Warhammer High Elfs have as much organic architecture as the Eldar, to be fair) is besides the point. Well... then I like the idea, at least Perhaps, if the circles and curved lines appeared more rarely in a system of squares and triangles and sharp edges, I would see it your way. But I don't... I know, but I was rambling on about my own idea
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 1, 2004 1:42:03 GMT -5
I see. Well, it would be fitting, I think, if you would come up with some symbolic explanation. It makes it that much more interesting. It's the same reason that the entire 'structure' is maintained upon a contra-grav disc: the chambers moves over the entire surface, just as the Clan Council covers all the interests of the eldar. (Or anything as simple as wanting to remain in the more temperate zones, given the temperature of Tir'asur varies from 66 o to much, much lower... ) And is this just the rule of cool again, or is there an explanation behind it? See above: symbolism and 'pragmatism' coupled with the concept of creating an idealised environment without resorting to more 'artificial' (LOL) means, i.e. the utilisation of a dome. I'm perfectly aware of that, Kage. Some extensions are just more logical than others. Since there is little to define even a starting point of 'logic' here, and given the aspected nature of what we have seen, an arbitrary reference to elements is not greater or lesser an extension... But it's usually a combination of simple squares, triangles and circles, and elegant organic lines. Which are present... Whether the "organic card" is tedious or not is slightly irrelevant in my opinion. It seems an undeniable part of the Eldar style. The point being that symmetry and different 'resolutions' extends to this. Certainly beats having them in a large tree-house as a Feist rip off! Perhaps, if the circles and curved lines appeared more rarely in a system of squares and triangles and sharp edges, I would see it your way. But I don't... Everything is about resolution, organic 'chaos' over imposed 'logic'. Remember that fractal concept. The Clan Council, with the other Councils, brings order to the Chaos but are themselves subject to it. They are created from the basic elements, modified by dualistic philosophy (light, dark) and are themselves the spectrum of grey between. (Ack, Grey Council imagery...) The structure alludes to the many features that we do know with extension to others... And it, again, certainly beats them just being resident in a dome... (Even though a pseudo-dome exists above the structure...)
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