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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 13:30:40 GMT -5
The following link has some information about the current research into the theory of gravitic propulsion. members.shaw.ca/mike.anderton/Several articles that I have read indicate that some of the properties behind gravitic propulsion would come down to resonance. It is suggested that gravity may have a natural frequency, far higher than X rays or microwaves, which would explain why it penetrates all known materials. If it was possible to create a material or field that could resonate and downshift the frequency to a lower level, gravity could be blocked by normal matter. This concept is called gravity shielding. The folowing link although it is not related to gravitic drive directly brings up some interesting possibilities. It is discussing the creation of a gravity telescope using crystal arrays. The crystals strike me as being similar to the crystaline like structure of wraithbone. If it is possible to generate a field in the crystals, should it not be possible to do the same in the wraithbone? This filed could them be used to resonate with the "gravity waves" or block the gravity wave form as indicated above, using it as a means of propulsion. www.main.org/polycosmos/gravhack/gravity.htmThe original information on gravity shielding calls form movement of a space craft using gravitic arrays. The way they are described in the articles brings to mind the "sails" present on most eldar ships.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 14:09:41 GMT -5
You see what I like this man? Erm (wo)man... Sorry. Which brings us back to wraithbone and no real reason for a difference between the drives of capital ships or lower... Really. One idea that I might suggest with regards to a limitation on eldar power generation is that behind the concept of wraithbone as 'channelling' energy is the idea that you don't want to do too much of it. After all, wraithbone runes are used as 'fuses'... Channel too much and they fizzle as a form of self-protection. But also they're still a 'light' in the warp (kind of) and if you put too many of them together you get, well, a bigger light. Lights draw attention... Thus eldar power generations must be their very nature be diffuse. This gives them an advantage (no power outages by hitting the 'power generation') but also puts a limit on the minimum size of vessels. Thus the more energy intensive the ships systems are, the greater the size of the vessel must be... Perhaps? Edit - And that grav-array idea requiring the use of 'antenna arrays' does sound suspiciously like 'sails' and would give a separate reason why ships wanted to enter into the atmosphere would want to have a secondary drive system: the array would probably be too weak to survive. Well, I'm sold on that idea. It would also work in harmony with the power generation concept as well as the idea that there are numerous different 'forms' of wraithbone. Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 14:46:52 GMT -5
You see what I like this man? Erm (wo)man... Sorry. No problem, I'm a guy. Edit - And that grav-array idea requiring the use of 'antenna arrays' does sound suspiciously like 'sails' and would give a separate reason why ships wanted to enter into the atmosphere would want to have a secondary drive system: the array would probably be too weak to survive. I agree. Although the stress on the ship would have more to do with wind turbulence rather than effects from the gravitational field of the planet. If I remember correctly, Eldar ships are not effected by gravity wells in Battle Fleet Gothic. This is as good an explanation why such ships as the Vampire and Pheonix resemble typical atmospheric vehicles instead of the standard space "only" ships. their flattened air frame allows them to transition throught the atmosphere where the space bound ships, which are not very aerodynamic would probably be torn apart by the stresses.
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Post by CELS on Apr 20, 2004 14:57:15 GMT -5
You mean how the Lightning and Thunderbolt would be? They're supposedly deployed from space sometimes. Not to mention Thunderhawks.
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 15:07:58 GMT -5
It would be exactly like those types of fighters. Deploying in space would not be a problem as long as they have vectored thrust capability. These are considerd aerospace fighters (term from battletech) because they can fly in both space as well as atmosphere.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 15:17:37 GMT -5
I agree. Although the stress on the ship would have more to do with wind turbulence rather than effects from the gravitational field of the planet. Oh, yes, I know. That's what I was thinking about. In either case you're going to have 'fold' the sail array thereby negating it's use. If I remember correctly, Eldar ships are not effected by gravity wells in Battle Fleet Gothic. No, but the 'solar wind' does. Would this have to be reinterpreted as a 'grav wind' now? I hope not. It is an appalling concept. This is as good an explanation why such ships as the Vampire and Pheonix resemble typical atmospheric vehicles instead of the standard space "only" ships. But also requires them to have a secondary drive system as mentioned elsewhere. And not mention of diffuse power systems... *sniff* Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 15:43:25 GMT -5
When the "sails" are folded away, perhaps the ships use anti-gravity pods. These would be like the ones on their weapons platforms, or other vehicles, but on a muchlarger scale. The ships manuverability in atmosphere would be reduced, but it might be a way to allow them to land on planet.
From what I can surmise, the anti-gravity pods on the weapons platforms and vehicles such as the falcon grav tank interact with either the magnetic field of the planetary body or the gravity generated by that body...the priciples are similar to the gravitic drive, but slightly different.
As to the "sails" being effected by the solar winds, I view this more as a natural side effect of their structure rather than something orginally built into the design. If you look at sky scrapers, they are effect by high winds, but rarely receive any benefit from them......although, some skyscrapers have taken to placing power generating wind mills on top of their roofs, to harness some energy of those winds.
Maybe the "sails" provide a backup power source for the ships to access. Unlike a craft world that is "tethered" directly to the webway, other eldar ships operate away from webway portals for long periods of time. Even as a super dense capacitor, wraithbone can only hold so much enregy.
What if the eldar harness the solar winds not as a means of locomotion, but collect the charged particles to r-energize the wraithbone. The effect on the ship by the solar winds would therefoe be similar to the effects of gusty winds on the blades of the wind mills. what do you think?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 16:37:36 GMT -5
When the "sails" are folded away, perhaps the ships use anti-gravity pods. Oh, that's a given. Sorry, should have been clearer. These are just contra-grav (CG) modules that provide (in essence) 'lift' for the vessel, cancelling out a certain fraction of the weight of the vessel (and yes I do mean weight in this case). The ships manuverability in atmosphere would be reduced, but it might be a way to allow them to land on planet. Well, unless it has another form of drive system other than the 'grav drive' then it is going to require propulsion from a secondary source. Unless using residual energy from atmospheric entry and/or gravity by varying the 'lift' provided by CG units. Of course, getting back into space is a bit of a bummer... Again, though, they could move really slow... But a secondary drive system used mainly for atmospheric operations on a world would seem to work... As to the "sails" being effected by the solar winds, I view this more as a natural side effect of their structure rather than something orginally built into the design. That they might utilise some sections of the 'sails' for solar cells would be useful, but not essentially given their other forms of power generation. (I don't think that it would be useful to argue that solar energy was the predominant source of energy, however...) But that they would operate as solar sails would seem a tad on the daft side... if for no other reason than the acceleration offered by them is... well... so amazingly small given the surface area of the 'sails' in the first place. Maybe the "sails" provide a backup power source for the ships to access. Unlike a craft world that is "tethered" directly to the webway, other eldar ships operate away from webway portals for long periods of time. Even as a super dense capacitor, wraithbone can only hold so much enregy. Again, I'm not keen on the Webway providing the energy for the eldar. It's a fascinating image, but for me doesn't work. And yes, I'm still focussing on the energy generating properties of wraithbone... What if the eldar harness the solar winds not as a means of locomotion, but collect the charged particles to r-energize the wraithbone. Already covered above. It's too dependent upon proximity to stars and, after all, craftworlds are given a 'deep space' image. Of course, you could just offer up the Webway power-generation/wraithbone capacitor argument... I'm still, however, more inclined to keep the power generating capacities of wraithbone. It just seems internally consistent. Of course, there is nothing to stop the eldar utilising solar energy... Kage
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 16:54:48 GMT -5
And out of interest, someone elsewhere has suggested that the eldar 'solar sails' are actually interacting with neutrinos... Is Sojourner going to check this out? I'm sure he would have some comments... Well, along with Destecado! Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 16:57:58 GMT -5
Solar winds extend pretty far away from stellar bodies, there are also other charge particles floating around in space. what I am suggesting is that they act as ion accumulators, not using the solar winds for propulsion as much as a to convert the energy into whatever power source the eldar use. They are collection grids or the terminals on a rechargable battery. This is not their main function of course, but provides a back up power sources. Waste not want not. As to the secondary drive system, perhaps it is a combination of the antigravity moduals and the shields on the ship. By manipulating the field created by the shields you would be able to manuver the ship within the gravity well of the planet. This idea is based of of the concept of creating a magnetic bubble in order to use the stellar winds as propulsion, but its properties can also be used to manipulate the ship in relation to the magnetic fields of planets and other stellar bodies as well. The information about the magnetic bubble concept is available on the following link. www.southpole.com/headlines/y2000/ast04oct_1.htmPerhaps eldar ships have both systems working simultaneously when ever they are within or close to a solar system. The magentic bubble would not only help to deflect debris, but because it is for the most part pushing off against the magnetic fields of surrounding bodies, it would allow eldar ships to make those unbelievable turns and corse changes for which they are so famous.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 20, 2004 17:51:37 GMT -5
Solar winds extend pretty far away from stellar bodies... Definitely... but blow in someone's face from 5cm distance and they'll have a different experience than if you did the same from 1m away. (And the joy of analogy suggests that if you spit at them from the same distances you're going to have an entirely different experience...! ) not using the solar winds for propulsion as much as a to convert the energy into whatever power source the eldar use. No, no... as a secondary energy system it makes a whole lot of sense. I really do imagine the eldar trying to minimise energy draw through wraithbone given the obvious effects. The tension is, in and of itself, fascinating. As to the secondary drive system, perhaps it is a combination of the antigravity moduals and the shields on the ship. In terms of the superficial imagery of the 40k universe, using the term 'shields' could be problematic. Furthermore we do have the concept of 'plasma exhausts' to deal with... Using more esoteric systems while wonderful for the concept of the eldar are going to increase 'complaints' about the eldar in the ASP. After all, they already go above and beyond the horrendously limited concept presented in superficial GW 'fluff'... it would allow eldar ships to make those unbelievable turns and corse changes for which they are so famous. The drive system itself allows that... change attitude and apply acceleration... Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 18:03:38 GMT -5
In terms of the superficial imagery of the 40k universe, using the term 'shields' could be problematic. Furthermore we do have the concept of 'plasma exhausts' to deal with... Using more esoteric systems while wonderful for the concept of the eldar are going to increase 'complaints' about the eldar in the ASP. After all, they already go above and beyond the horrendously limited concept presented in superficial GW 'fluff'... Shields was a poor word choice. I was attempting to refer to the holo fields. It just stuck me as a thought from the way that they are describe that the field is in someway interacting with the magnetic field of the planet or the solar winds. The shild effect sounds alot lke the Aurora Borialis, which is the interaction of the stelar winds with our own planets magnetic field. this is what first made me consider the idea of the magnetic field or bubble surrounding the ship. Another thought occured to me, perhaps the "sails" also disperse charged particles into the holo field when it is operating. This would give the filed a charge and help it to disipate weapons fire towards the ship. Any thoughts? BTW are you refering to plasma exhaust with regards to eldar ships? I don't remember coming across that in the fluff.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 21, 2004 19:37:03 GMT -5
BTW are you refering to plasma exhaust with regards to eldar ships? I don't remember coming across that in the fluff. I was doing but for the life of me I cannot remember where... All my BL, 40k and RPG books but for the odd one are currently hundreds of milies away from me... With regards to linking the dathedi shield with 'charged particles' (or whatever), that might be a tad on the weird side... especially given the approach to them on the Harlequin 'fluff'. Kage
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Post by Destecado on May 20, 2004 10:36:48 GMT -5
Rather than cluttering the thread discussing the sublight engines of the eldar, I thought I would come back to this thread to discuss eldar power generation.
We have covered the fact that wraithbone acts as a form of capacitor for energy, but we were stuck on how this power is accumulated. In the sublight engine thread I brough up the concept of the accumulation of power through harmonic resonace, with wraithbone acting as a harmonic trap capacitor for charged particles.
Does this sound like a reasonable possibility Kage?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 20, 2004 11:35:53 GMT -5
Well, no. Wraithbone acts as a 'power capacitor' for 'warp energy', or so sayeth the 'fluff'. I'm now all but certain on this. The question is how the energy is utilised rather than requiring the utilisation of 'harmonic traps for charged particles'... Our problem is one more of inconsistent initial vision than anything else... Kage
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