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Post by CELS on Jan 14, 2005 14:00:58 GMT -5
While it is clear from the fluff that many Space Marine chapters govern their homeworlds without the help of an outside Imperial Commander (ref: Macragge, Fenris, etc) I was wondering about chapters like the Frost Bringers, who have no one homeworld. Is it possible that these chapters would in fact govern several Imperial worlds? Now, I'm not talking about a small subsector with hiveworlds and industrial worlds, but a scattered few worlds that have little value to anyone, except Space Marines.
In the Anargo sector, for example, we have a death world and a feral world in the Archaios subsector, and quite likely a few feral or feudal worlds elsewhere in the sector. Now, these worlds are almost worthless except for their potential Space Marine recruits, since they don't have the technology to produce and export anything useful.
And it's not like the Imperium would be overtly concerned with Space Marines becoming too powerful, as long as they just have a handful of barely populated worlds.
Your thoughts?
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 14, 2005 14:18:25 GMT -5
The issue is, how much time would governance take from their tactical schedule? How many men do they have to devote to bookkeeping and official Imperial business who could be better used elsewhere? Also, being rulers of worlds means that they're also responsible for them. A chapter would have to scatter its men very thinly to devote to guard duties on planets and to undertake offensive operations elsewhere.
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Post by CELS on Jan 14, 2005 14:27:06 GMT -5
I doubt they would have to defend worthless death worlds and feral worlds unless they wanted to. The Imperial Guard would definitely not be wasted on such worlds, so why would someone demand that Space Marines be wasted on that?
Of course, Space Marines are known to take up oaths that get them killed in some heroic, but stupid last stand. Or so Codex: Space Marine (4E) would have us believe.
For the Space Marines, the advantage of having a world to themselves, without the prying eyes of the Adeptus Terra, is obviously that they are more independent and don't have to answer to anyone when they go looking for recruits.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 14, 2005 14:30:28 GMT -5
Does the Lex Imperialis with regards to planetary governance not apply to space marines? I would have though they'd be required to raise some defensive troops for the Administratum to be happy with their rulership of worlds.
Overall, it could be done, but that chapter would probably have an extremely large ancillary staff, including perhaps a large number of 'Marine Guard' stationed on planets.
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Post by Tynesh on Jan 14, 2005 15:18:41 GMT -5
Interesting ideas guys...
I would say that in some cases the Chapter Master will have a large part to play in the lives of people on a feral or fuedal world. Maybe not a 'governor' but they may be revered greatly for taking kids away to become recruits.
In some cases they may be advisors to the planetary governor on issues that concern them, ie recruits and maintaining a warrior lifestyle on the planet.
I have been developing some ideas about the role of non-combatant (NC) marines. These will be marines who can no longer engage in combat due to injury/age, but due to their marine physiology are still active etc. Their experience may be used to great effect, directing battles from behind the scenes.
These guys would also be given admin roles, think the UM master of marches, arsenal, fleet etc. This idea provides marines to do certain tasks without syphoning off combatant marines that would be needed elsewhere, Ie to fight. I see no reason why they would'nt be sent to a planet to oversee recruitment and protection of the planet. Is it Angels of Darkness with the DA outpost on Piscina?
I guess chapters like the FB that recruit from multiple worlds would be less inclined to always be on hand to defend everyworld, compared to chapters that have a single world to protect or they die. They may send troops if needed but the type of worlds they recruit from may mean they are rarely attacked?
Thoughts
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Post by Zholud on Jan 14, 2005 15:38:43 GMT -5
I think that planets may be under formal governance of a Chapter. Not more than a few worlds, because otherwise it can be seen as thread to the Imperium even if they are worthless mud-balls. Note that the governance means Aptus Non tithe grade and forbiddance to anyone, even Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy to visit these worlds… recall all those Fernis accidents  However, I doubt existence of retired marines that has bureaucratic job. Thus real power on these worlds is in hands of local aristocracy, maybe families with best material for recruiting. Anmd they sign documents on behalf of Chapter Master X. At least this is how I see this.  |
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Post by CELS on Jan 15, 2005 7:03:32 GMT -5
I agree with Zholud on this one.
Sojourner, I don't see why you go on about Space Marines having to defend these worthless planets. There are many, many Imperial worlds that are largely undefended, IMO. If the Imperium doesn't want to waste resources on colonising a feral world, then why would they waste resources defending it? I've never heard of the Imperial Guard or anyone else being sent to defend a feral world.
Tynesh... you're going way Off-T here. But for the record, I don't agree with the concept at all. First of all, Space Marines aren't weakened by old age. Dante is 1100 years old and still kicking butt. Same goes for Cassius of the Ultramarines, Ancient Helveticus and a lot of other old Space Marines. Second of all, injuries are fixed by bionics, and if the injurie are too horrific, Space Marines are either killed or put in life-sustaining caskets. Third, the Master of Marches, Master of the Watch, etc are titles reserved for Captains, according to fluff.
Obviously, the reason I was asking was to check what people thought about the Frost Bringers ruling several worlds in the Anargo sector, such as the two worlds I mentioned in the Archaios subsector. One is a feral world with alien plantlife and a small and primitive human population, and the other is a post-apocalyptic nightmare abandoned by the Imperium (Sistina).
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 15, 2005 20:17:51 GMT -5
First of all, Space Marines aren't weakened by old age. Dante is 1100 years old and still kicking butt. Dante subscribes to the GW premise that "powerful" translates to "ancient". I would seriously question that he was actually 1,100 years old. He would have to go through severe rejuvenation unless nearly 900 years of that 'age' is pseudo-age (i.e. the rest of warp time dilation). Obviously, the reason I was asking was to check what people thought about the Frost Bringers ruling several worlds in the Anargo sector, such as the two worlds I mentioned in the Archaios subsector. The Frostbringers are not going to be having the governorship of any worlds in the Anargo sector. They might maintain 'feudal rights' to remove individuals that they consider 'good enough' from these worlds, but I would need an extremely good reason to make them an Ultramarine clone. and the other is a post-apocalyptic nightmare abandoned by the Imperium (Sistina). I like the idea of the Chapter visiting this world but, again, not having governorship of it. |
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Post by CELS on Jan 16, 2005 5:44:28 GMT -5
Well, that ends this discussion. Nothing more to be said, I guess.
As for Dante, he really is 1100 years old, and the fluff suggests that he has ruled the Chapter all this time, since it mentions that the Masters of other Chapters can remember him being famous even when they were themselves young scouts. Dante is also known from leading from the front, plummeting from the sky with his deadly honour guard. This, to me, suggests that he's not a crippled old man in a wheelchair. Sorry if you don't like this part of the fluff, but the Blood Angels are known for their longevity and Dante's fluff has remained unchanged for many years now.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 16, 2005 6:08:05 GMT -5
Blood Angels are the exception to the rule in that they're exceptionally long-lived. Even then however, Angels of Death still suggests that the chapter has some noncombatant staff who are comparable to those in other chapters. Do some BA age badly while others remain fresh? Or are these guys even older than Dante?
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Post by Sikkukkut on Jan 16, 2005 8:59:14 GMT -5
The Frostbringers are not going to be having the governorship of any worlds in the Anargo sector. They might maintain 'feudal rights' to remove individuals that they consider 'good enough' from these worlds, but I would need an extremely good reason to make them an Ultramarine clone. And we don't have one. Kage is correct: the Frost Bringers have their fortress-monastery on Adliden, they have perpetual treaties with a number of worlds allowing them to stop by every so often and collect recruits, and that's all. On a broader note, I don't think that the equation "Chapter recruits from a world=Chapter owns and runs that world" is accurate. The Imperial Fists and Black Templars, for example, leave a recruiting post on worlds they fight for but that's all it is, an outpost. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 16, 2005 9:46:32 GMT -5
Well, that ends this discussion. Nothing more to be said, I guess. Kinda. But as Sikkukkut points out, the 'fluff' on the relationship of the Chapter to the rest of the Anargo sector was included in some of the earlier discussion. Indeed, it's quite amazing that I remembered it! As for Dante, he really is 1100 years old... Then something else is in operation with that individual. Simple. Marines have increased longevity, but we're still talking, say, 275-400 years... Sorry if you don't like this part of the fluff, but the Blood Angels are known for their longevity and Dante's fluff has remained unchanged for many years now. It has nothing to do with liking the 'fluff', but realising that based upon the other 'fluff' there must be something else going on. Otherwise you'll end up with not only dispropotionate demi-gods (in reality, not just statement) who are practically immortal. But, heck, that's where the 'fluff' is going on this most cliched of topics (i.e. Marines). |
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Post by Tynesh on Jan 16, 2005 11:28:21 GMT -5
Don't the Blood Angels sleep in Sarcophagi?
If so maybe Dante uses one converted into a deep sleep chamber?
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Post by RascalLeader on Jan 16, 2005 12:44:15 GMT -5
Their Longevity is perhaps due to the fact that Sanguinius was effected by his time within the warp i.e. the wings (If you want to explain anything, start with that Kage  ) as well as his foresight. Such things would have major effect to the genome of the 'normal' Marine DNA within him. This inheritance was then passed onto the legion then the successor chapters much like the Black Rage. But I am going way off topic - Althought the disscussion is all but dead; I seem to remember info from somewhere in battlefleet gothic that a chapter takes on all the people who failed in their training to be space marines and put them on their ships as crew. I assume it is possible that some of them have been put in charge of worlds under the name of their chapter as the Marines representatives. |
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 16, 2005 15:54:51 GMT -5
Athough this ties in with Phillip's discussion in General since he subscribes to the 'fluff' add on whereby Marines are genetically distinct.
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