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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2005 10:15:56 GMT -5
Of course, if we wanted to be very realistic about this, we should design all the worlds in the Anargo sector, determine the flow of goods between them. Then we could see how big the ships would have to be. But... that would take a long, long time.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 10:24:04 GMT -5
That's what I've been trying to do. What I could do with is:
1) More people assigning some values to their worlds on the trade spreadsheet
2) Someone's help in converting GTL into an 'efficiency multiplier'
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Post by Philip on Jan 3, 2005 10:26:55 GMT -5
Hmm, I was just thinking – How many Hive worlds do we have?
As my STC design was dropped from Anargo, I guess we are using the Agri-world > Hiveworld model?
This means an awful lot of food and fuel has to be shipped in, and considering the time scale/ unloading etc, each hive world is going to require many ships (en route/ loading/ unloading).
I think that the number of Merchant cargo ships and their size is going to be dependent on the number of hive worlds (well a minimum at least).
How much capacity (in tons) does a 5km ship have?
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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2005 10:55:55 GMT -5
Ultimately, we're going to end up with equations that are simply too complicated. We need to design the ships, we need to estimate how much food needs to be imported, we need to estimate how much food can be exported, etc. Unless we do make some assumptions, this could go on forever. As for fuel- do we know what kind of fuel is needed for Imperial ships, and whether or not this can be extracted from gas giants? How many hive worlds... Less than five. Maybe three. But there are two "proto-hiveworlds" and probably some industrial worlds that will need to import food. And not only agri-worlds can export vast amounts of food. An agri-world with a population of 1.1 million would be classified as a civilised world, so.. That's what I've been trying to do. What I could do with is: 1) More people assigning some values to their worlds on the trade spreadsheet I'm still waiting for you to send me it.. I still don't know how, but I'm always eager to help
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 11:21:00 GMT -5
I did send it, CELS. Check your junk mail.
Imperial fuel:
As they run on 'plasma reactors' I'm guessing heavy hydrogen. Can it be harvested from gas giants? Depends if the gas giant has a lot of heavy hydrogen. I would guess that they would; the distribution of stable isotopes is pretty much universally constant.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 11:35:09 GMT -5
Oh yes - for a spacecraft, mass of cargo is relevant only to its handling, it's volume you need to consider. And it would depend on the ship. A specialised bulk goods tanker would be able to carry more of a substance such as grain than a container ship, but would need retrofitting with cargo decks for carrying mixed cargo and/or manufacturered goods.
The way I see it, transports fall into three main carrying types - transports with a vast, single integral silo, modular transports with detachable holding tanks, and container transports. For me, I think modular transports would be most efficient in unloading wheras silo transports would be better at loading procedures. Modular transports can rapidly offload manageable yet large packages to a space station or groundside spaceport, whereas silo transports can simply be plugged into a holding facility and filled up. Container transports would need to spend a fair time in dock loading and unloading, but can carry the widest range of goods and are essential for carrying finished products such as machinery, as well as mixed cargoes, and indeed troops. Troops being transported on a container ship most definitely draw the short straw between that, a military transport and a warship.
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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2005 11:45:20 GMT -5
Wouldn't modular transports be the best way to go, both in terms of loading and unloading? You can load the cargo into modules before the ship arrives. When the ship arrives, you just attach the modules, and it's good to go. That seems like the best solution for more fragile goods.
I didn't quite understand what container ships are though. Big empty ships where you just insert containers in a big hall?
Oh, and what would we call these in 40k terms? What is a bulk freighter, for example? Is this what you call a silo transport, or a modular transport, or a container transport?
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 11:51:28 GMT -5
Container ships are pretty much what you said, including large empty spaces with rig and decking on which to secure containers. I'm thinking of having collapsible decks on winches and chains inside to make unloading easier. Perhaps having them stacking one on top of another like venetian blinds so that one level can be loaded then jacked up to reveal the next empty deck.
As for the modular transports, true enough, but there is the possibility that 1) the storage facility is much larger than the ship, like a gigantic silo and 2) the ship itself may be the harvester; gas giants for example. I have a few ideas about how gas harvesting in a system might go, but that's a bitt OffT.
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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2005 11:54:01 GMT -5
Very OffT, but feel free to post that elsewhere. Should be interesting! So what are your thoughts on the composition of different sized ships in the Merchant and civil fleet? Care to make any guestimates now? It might be a while till we have finished all the worlds in the sector and run them through your spreadsheet
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 11:59:07 GMT -5
I'm still leaning towards the Merchant fleet being predominantly 'galactic' class ships i.e. large, yet being smaller in number than the civil fleet, if not as large a difference as Kage has suggested previously. I'm seeing a large range of ship sizes in the civil fleet, but comprising very few of a tonnage any greater than two-thirds of an average galactic-class, the most common tonnage range would be about a quarter to a third.
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Post by Philip on Jan 3, 2005 12:10:44 GMT -5
Tankers (40K equivalent of Crude oil super tankers, but used for all kinds of gases and liquids).
Cargo (load up with modular containers – much like the cargo ship we have now) these would carry everything else.
One area I am curious about is loading / unloading, how is it done in regard to a hive?
Do they use anti-grav tech?
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 12:18:30 GMT -5
Depends if you allow big ships to land. If not, as I wouldn't, you simply have ferry vessels carrying things to and fro. I see no reason to give these any antigrav capability.
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Post by CELS on Jan 3, 2005 12:22:27 GMT -5
Ok, maybe we've been going OffT a bit too much now. Remember that this thread is primarily about warp travel and the composition of the fleets. The actual loading and offloading process might be better discussed elsewhere...
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Post by Philip on Jan 3, 2005 12:38:10 GMT -5
Depends if you allow big ships to land. If not, as I wouldn't, you simply have ferry vessels carrying things to and fro. I see no reason to give these any antigrav capability. Actually I was thinking of anti-grav platforms. I really don’t think I like the idea of a 5km ship landing on a world. Ok, maybe we've been going OffT a bit too much now. Remember that this thread is primarily about warp travel and the composition of the fleets. The actual loading and offloading process might be better discussed elsewhere... This ties in with the topic: as the speed at which a ship can be unloaded/ load is going to have an effect on the number of ships in the fleet. If a ship can’t be unloaded fast enough to match consumption then multiple ships will have to be unloaded simultaneously. This will increase the number of ships needed by the number of simultaneous downloads. So if a world has one 'cargo loop' with 3 ships ferry goods from worlds, but a hive world may need several loops and this will push up the number of ships. I mean how fast can you unload a 5km ship? In a day? A week? A Month? Does a hive world have say 6 (or 12, 50 or more?) super cargo/ tankers attached to its space ports downloading goods with hundreds of other ships en route?
Edit: added I think it takes around 3+ days to unload a super tanker (crude oil), but these are very small compared to a 5km ship. Could a hive world have pipelines that go into orbit?
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 14:30:36 GMT -5
A space elevator type contraption? It seems possible, but only on very high tech worlds. Forgeworlds, advanced hive worlds and so on.
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