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Post by CELS on Nov 9, 2004 12:12:47 GMT -5
What do you think the Imperium would use Space Marines for? Considering their extremely high value and rarity; is it likely that the Imperium would use them in a pitched battle on an open battlefield if they had a choice? Or is it more likely that the Imperium would save them for special missions where Imperial Guardsmen simply aren't good enough? If so, what kind of missions would that be?
I'm just getting increasingly negative about the idea of Space Marines standing on an open battlefield to fight back hordes of enemies. To me, this sounds a bit like using Navy SEALs on the battlefield, like normal infantry.
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Post by Philip on Nov 9, 2004 13:49:20 GMT -5
Marines where specifically made to reclaim human space, so it would seem their origins lie in taking on humans opponents.
Considering their small numbers, it seems likely the where super fast strike force, that went in hard to ‘remove the head’ of a non-compliant government/ military. Once ‘decapitated’ and in disarray the Imperial Guard moved in and brought the remainder to heal.
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Post by CELS on Nov 9, 2004 16:05:21 GMT -5
Only human opponents? Is it extremely unlikely that the Emperor designed them with the sneaking suspicion that there might be aliens threatening his future Imperium, or even that he might have to recapture human worlds from alien invaders?
I would agree that their small numbers suggests that they would be mostly in the business of quick lightning strikes, though not exclusively (or even most commonly) the 'head' of the enemy. I think it's just as likely that they were used to perform surgical strikes against vulnerable points of strategic importance.
BFG suggests that Space Marine warfare revolves heavily around disrupting the enemy's supply lines, saying that Space Marines will only rarely meet an enemy fleet in pitched battle. Is it unlikely that the same is true for planetary warfare?
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Post by Dazo on Nov 9, 2004 16:19:57 GMT -5
Your right CELS the space marines were not created to fight humans but to reclaim human worlds from the grip of xenos scum. In fact yes that is the reason, and it is written down somewhere, but I don't know where so don't ask me
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Post by malika on Nov 9, 2004 16:53:23 GMT -5
The role of Space Marines has changed since the Horus Heresy and the use of the Codex Astartes. Before the Horus Heresy the Space Marines were organised in Legions who kinda did what their Primarch wanted. A good example of this is that the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists are siege specialized Legions.
After the Heresy this changed, loyal Space Marines were rare and were organised in smaller Chapters. Now they were almost purely for surgical attacks (makes me think of the Raven Guard here).
However they also had another function, which hasnt changed after the Heresy. They are the "poster-boys" of the Imperium (And Games Workshop)...well sort of, they symbolise the Might of the Imperium, before and after the Heresy.
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Post by Philip on Nov 9, 2004 18:51:43 GMT -5
No.  I see the Space Marine as special ops, you can drop them right into the middle of the action and they survive, they cut through the enemy leader’s defences/ body guards with ease, and considering that close combat is likely in these situations it would explain why marines where designed to excel in such actions. (Fortunately most governmental/ official buildings have large doors, look at the Houses of Parliament, Banks and Churches) Basically the marines can do what the IG can’t, I feel that even in the old days the IG did most of the crude work and the marines nipped and out claiming all the glory. It also seems reasonable to assume that a government ‘decapitated’ by space marines has a profound effect of the world’s population; and burn the image of the ‘Angels of Death’ into their culture (probably explains why normal humans are so scared of them). However, in 40K I don’t think that this aspect of the marine history is emphasised… As for Xenos, yep marines would do the same to them, and let the IG grind up the rest. |
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Post by Dazo on Nov 10, 2004 3:07:38 GMT -5
I think everyone is forgetting, that in the beginning when the emperor created them there where far far more of them than there is today, so there role back then was as frontline troops, entire chapters would decsend on a world along with their primarchs, nowadays there role is much different as they are far rewer in number. Edit: malika had a good point, I thought I would repeat it  |
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Post by Lordof on Nov 10, 2004 5:59:02 GMT -5
I actually don't think the Imperium has much to do in the way of "ordering" Spaces Marines as to what they think is appropriate for them to do in any given battle.
They may honourably and humbly request that the SM not attack so blazenly but how much power would it take short of an inquisitorial edict to order SM around
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Post by Tynesh on Nov 11, 2004 17:45:33 GMT -5
In my opinion SM are utilised for many different missions.
Yes they are expensive in terms of equipment and time taken to create. But they are rock solid. They are equipped with the best wargear and weapons the Imperium has ever made. They may specialise in different theatres of war but they are all capable of taking on any environment.
The analogy of Navy Seals on an open battlefield is IMHO just wrong. SM commanders are experts in warfare and assigning the troops under their leadership. I'm sure they could use marines in open battle with ease. They are harder to kill than a Navy Seal, by a far way! A Navy Seal is just as easy to kill as an IG grunt. SM dont die easily.They wont be sent into stupid and hopless situations, they know what they are doing!
I can see them used in any sitiuation they are happy to engage in.
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Post by CELS on Nov 12, 2004 7:00:58 GMT -5
I'm not saying a Space Marine wouldn't be any good on the battlefield, so I think you're misunderstanding the analogy. Like a Space Marine, a Navy Seal would probably do excellent on the battlefield, because of superior training, equipment and physical and psychological capabilitites. Maybe a Navy Seal would last ten times as long as the average grunt on the battlefield. Maybe a hundred times as long.
But... put the Navy Seal in his favoured setting, like an office building or somewhere where his superior training can really be put to good use, and he'll last an eternity.
Same thing for Space Marines, I think. Put a Space Marine company in an enemy star ship, and they'll kill a thousand times their own number. Put them on the battlefield though, and their advantage is seriously reduced.
So what I'm saying is- using Space Marines for jobs that grunts can do is a waste of resources, and I believe the Imperium knows that. Therefore, you'd only rarely see Space Marines in pitched battle on the front lines.
With fluff detailing such events as the third war for Armageddon, and the First Tyrannic war, where Space Marines are vital in stopping huge armies from taking Imperial worlds, one can be lead to believe that these Space Marines have held the front line. As if a company of Ultramarines would just hand out five hundred bolter clips to each Space Marine, and go into position in the front line, ready to fend off the hundred thousand Tyranids landing on Macragge.
The First Company defended the north pole of Macragge, if I recall correctly. How did they do that? Did each Terminator have a kill of a few thousand Tyranids? Did they shoot the first fifty Tyranids, and kill the remaining 2950 Tyranids in close combat?
Or was the First Company assisted by the Macragge PDF, who were able to defeat the Tyranids because the First Company performed a surgical strike on the greatest Hive nodes in the Tyranid army?
It's a question of imagery, really. Do we see the Space Marines standing on a mountain of dead, unloading his bolter in the face of a neverending army in the front line, or is the Space Marine actually someone who typically fights his battles away from the front line, near the HQ or supply lines of the enemy, before escaping in his parked Thunderhawk when he has completed his mission?
I would say that 99.99% of the time, it is the latter.
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 28, 2004 20:35:06 GMT -5
I'm going to jump in with the last post so that I can make some, erm, comments known. I'm not saying a Space Marine wouldn't be any good on the battlefield.. I'm sure that everyone would agree that Marines are - for whatever reason - very good on the battlefield. While the specifics of this is up for intepretation (i.e. it behoves the individual to find a reason why they are so good) the fact remains. ...because of superior training, equipment and physical and psychological capabilitites... A telling feature that I agree with. It is not just about the brawn, but the brains and the backing behind the Marine. If you're familiar with the film, I'm reminded of a comment from The Bourne Identity in which the 'boss guy' says of Bourne "You're a malfunctiong thirty-six million dollar weapon." One has to wonder just how expensive Marines are! Put them on the battlefield though, and their advantage is seriously reduced. I would agree, but add the caveat that the wargame says otherwise as a general rule. And, indeed, the 'fluff'. This is a part of the fact that they are designed to be represented as "'ard" and the fact that, when it comes down to it, the wargame isn't particularly 'realistic'. Or, at least, I do not find it so. Weapon ranges are incredibly short, there are huge weapon stop-gaps, and so on... Only problem is that it is that which seems to make 40k into the game - and by extension - universe that it is. Might not make a great deal of sense, but there we go. The solution to this is... well, problematic. Therefore, you'd only rarely see Space Marines in pitched battle on the front lines. As a general rule, I would agree to that. Only problem is that it monkeys around with the concept of the Horus Heresy, but that's not particularly surprising. That's where the whole 'imagery' behind the wargame comes in. ...Space Marines are vital in stopping huge armies from taking Imperial worlds, one can be lead to believe that these Space Marines have held the front line. Again, though, this is a part of the whole 'image' of Marines in the 'fluff'. They are the first and last line of defence, after all! For me it is becoming an increasing challenge to include the Marines, and other parts of the classic 40k imagery, into the ASP without taking a two level approach: the standard image, and a more tempered and arguably 'realistic' approach. (Insofar that any fictional approach might be considered 'realistic'... I would use 'plausible', but that is dependent upon the set-up assumptions!) It's a question of imagery, really. It always is, I'm afraid! Do we see the Space Marines standing on a mountain of dead, unloading his bolter in the face of a neverending army in the front line, or is the Space Marine actually someone who typically fights his battles away from the front line, near the HQ or supply lines of the enemy, before escaping in his parked Thunderhawk when he has completed his mission? To be fair, I don't particularly see either. While Marines are not 'grunts' they are also not SFO personnel. The whole analogy that they are the 'scalpel' to the Imperium's armed forces does make a sense... Put them in situations where a rapid strike-force of semi-tanks is going to make a difference. Not in protracted war, but in mission-focused activities. |
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Post by Sojourner on Nov 29, 2004 4:06:57 GMT -5
Shock troops. SAS compared to Commandos. They're the people you want to smash strong points, not weak. You drop marines right on top of the enemy army's core, rip out its heart, not slit its throat. If they're doing a drop on the enemy's capital, the rest of the city will feel the explosions.
Other than that, if the rest of their own side is forced onto the defensive, you're likely to see them reinforcing the Imperial line at weak points, providing a breakwater to block any enemy spearhead.
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Post by RascalLeader on Nov 29, 2004 19:17:36 GMT -5
Space Marine can do whatever they damn well want. They are not Speical Forces nor grunt in nature; but a combination of all the disciplines so they can suit whatever role they are needed in.
For most of the time (as the GW imagery) their duties are concerned with the role of Heavy infantry. Where the Imperial Guard struggles or fails thats where they will be sent to take over. The Imperial Guard themselves often take over from the poorly trained and equiped PDF, and the Space marines are the next step up when this does not work.
Its brute force rather then nice neat surgical strikes; Which they can do just as well.
But would this be a waste of resources to send out such highly trained individuals when shipping in 300K extra grunts will do the job?
Well both yes and no. What is the cost of a Marine? Its not something you can exacally put a price on, since they are not 'paid for'. They have their own world, their own resources and they sustain themselves in both population and wargear. So the price to the Imperium; none.
But they are vaulible in other ways. If a 'free' troop ( Its not really costing the Imperial commanders anything now is it?) can take down upwards of 10 Enermies for everyone they lose, they are much more effective weaponary then the I-Guard. If you could put 50 space marines in one area, it would free up hundreds of Guardmen for redistribution to other fronts. Doing that may just turn the tides of whatever war they are invoved in.
You also must think what sort of warfare they are invoved in. For most of their missions inflitration or sergical strike skills are not call for. They go around defending Imperial worlds most of the time which usally requires troops not Special forces.
Their wargear even tells you a little about them; Vindicators, Predators, Whirlwind and Landraiders. It don't exacally make them commandos does it? They are the sledgehammer not the scalpel.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Nov 29, 2004 19:29:28 GMT -5
I agree. The Ordos (Xenos/Hereticus/Malleus) are more of the Scalpel, each suited to their specific area (in theory  ). The Imperial Guard are the sledgehammer, or maybe a bunch of small hammers pounding together. The space marines are a smaller sledgehammer - with an explosive charge in the tip  . |
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Post by Sikkukkut on Nov 30, 2004 0:28:50 GMT -5
I've also heard the analogy that the Officio Assassinorum is the scalpel to the Marines' sledgehammer or the Imperial Guard's steamroller. But I'd actually tend to shift the terms of the analogy.
The Marines and Guard have fundamentally different roles: the Marines aren't numerous enough to take on and kill every single member of an enemy army, unless the enemy army is (equally) tiny. Moving in and controlling territory for the long haul is a Guard job - let them handle the day-to-day grunt work of the campaign. They're the ones who occupy every single building in that city you're trying to hold, roll out the continent-spanning battle lines, roll forward with unstoppable momentum.
On the other hand... that bridge that's crucial to enemy logistics is so deep in their territory and so well guarded that no regular Guard commandoes could get near the place? Astartes work. That bunker that's a nexus for their comms that's too deep for an orbital bombardment and will take a month of bloody campaigning to fight your way to? Astartes work. Taking out that Warboss as he moves up to the lines will cut the heart out of this whole section of the ork front, but your units are overstretched and pinned down and you don't have the numbers to bring to bear on his personal platoon of Nobz? Astartes work.
So my preferred analogy is: the Guard is the wrecking ball that gradually, patiently, swing after swing, smashes a big building to pieces, wall by wall. The Astartes are the handful of demolition charges, powerful, yes, but also scrupulously placed at carefully calculated points to acheive a result far greater than just their raw power would seem to indicate. Just marching Marines out onto an open battlefield strikes me as the equivalent of taking the shaped charges you were meant to put in very specific places through the building, and piling them all against the front door instead. Sure, that door is seriously blown up, but if you deploy them properly you can do so much more...
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). The Imperial Guard are the sledgehammer, or maybe a bunch of small hammers pounding together.
.