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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 3, 2005 18:48:52 GMT -5
Which is given to us in one of our few 'fluff' examples of space transport that doesn't revolve around wargame stuff. One problem here is the time that it takes a ship to get from the warp zone - or any appropriate 'bypass' to that zone - and the mainworld (or world of choice). That is, for me, a fairly fantastic idea which is only limited by the ability of a given 'floor' to be reasonably moved compared against the size of said 'floor' (e.g. unless some form of supporting structures were integrated as well...) Of course, depends on whether they are kept in a G-field or not I would imagine. Oh who knows... Remembering, of course, that it woud be cheaper to get the 'fuel' - or whatever - from the gas giant itself. (Out of interest, Traveller use to have 'fuel purification' systems as well as 'gas scoops' so that you could refuel yourself for 'free'... Not sure whether that would work with GURPS but then again I haven't seriously looked into it.) Well, I believe the numbers that I was working on was somewhat less than the 'fluff' "guestimate"/statement for the Merchant Fleet, I seem to remember! And that depends on how common AG is seemed to be (I use 'contra-grav', which is a lift system rather than a form of propulsion, which is some of the more common imagery for 'anti-grav'; it's a pedant thing). The 'fluff' is contradictory on this. Thus while spaceships and stations seem to have CG systems, it is used as a form of parachute, and some interface/orbital vehicles are argued to use it, it is still considered 'rare'! This is why - at the moment - CG technology is GTL10 and therefore only manufactured by the adeptus mechanicus. (This is moved from the 'standard' level of GTL12. Then again, reactionless thrusters, i.e. 'antigrav' for propulsion, appear at GTL9 so you really can make what you want of it... On this I'm not overtly fussed!) Having an increased amount of CG would make things much easier for 'trade' in the 40k universe. Having AG/reactionless thrusters would also make ship transportation, fuel, etc., that much easier but would also tend to pooh-pah the need for fuel. (In which case the limitation is 'food' and other consumables, but arguably Imperial technology is sufficiently high enough to get around this situation for a lengthy period of time. And, yes, I know Phillip...) Other than in the long term it makes things much, much cheaper. The thread wasn't meant to get too sidetracked. Also there is a limited amount of 'fluff' on the speed of loading. So nyuh. I will strenusously argue against any space elevators and, perhaps, even rule out of hand that they're not allowed. Maybe, as mentioned, on a Forgeworld but not at GTL9. As a reiteration it is at these points, where modelling becomes an issue, that it would be useful to turn to the RPG side of things. Okay, we might only have one system currently on the go but it is a start. We can then balance that against some of the more viable 'what ifs' and 'maybes' that would obviously crop up since an RPG is still an abstraction in the same way that the 40k wargame itself is an abstraction. It's just that they tend to be more 'realistic' abstractions on the whole...
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Post by Dazo on Jan 4, 2005 7:22:15 GMT -5
That problem can be solved by having warehouse worlds located on the outer worlds of the system, that would reduce the travel time of incoming warp ships. You need more system ships though to transport goods to the outer system in the first place, whether or not they are also ubertransports can be for someone to decide. It does raise the question, who owns system ships, as I assume at the moment we are just talking about the warp capable ones. would the ratios be different for system ships as opposed to warp ships.
It seems that imperial warships are capable of actually flying into the atmosphere of a gas giant, if the new blood angels novel is to be believed.
I agree, I have never seen any reference to that sort of thing, all transportation is handled by shuttles...to my knoledge
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 4, 2005 7:47:02 GMT -5
Warehouse worlds in the Outer System... You're right, it would makes much easier. But surely it would also make things horrendously vulnerable?
One other solution is to have 'warehouse container' portions accelerating to a given speed at which the ship passes through the system, but then again this is not present in the 'fluff'.
Space Elevators... There is no real mention in the 'fluff', but that doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't exist. I'm just not overtly fond of them. In an CG/AG system they would be an anachronism.
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Post by CELS on Jan 4, 2005 8:48:50 GMT -5
This might not be entirely relevant to what you're currently discussing with space elevators and contra-grav systems, but it is relevant to the topic of this thread; Fleets. I've made some suggestions to the volume and average length of the different ship classes in the Imperium. This is done with much help from background text, fiction and the models themselves, so I'll ask you to consider them carefully. kagemat.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=Imperium&action=display&thread=1104616992&start=11The thread I've posted them in is currently locked by the powers that be, but feel free to take up discussion here. If anyone wants a bit more detailed version, PM me and I'll send you the spreadsheet with a bit more information, such as average height, width and minimum and maximum body length.
EDIT- I've now included military ships. Pretty easy, with my fabulous spreadsheet ;D So you might want to check this out too, Kage. Interestingly, I've realised that chaos ships and old Imperial ships are much, much larger than Imperiual ships in terms of volume, because Chaos ships and Imperial Grand cruisers are so wide. Actually, I think the grand cruiser model might have bigger volume than the battleship model, or at least approximately the same. Using the historical approach to explain this, that means that the Imperium used to build much larger, but fewer starships. This makes sense, since the Imperium was much smaller during the Great Crusade than it is today. A lot more worlds have been conquered since the beginning of the Great Crusade, and the need for large battleships and grand cruisers has dropped.
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Post by Tynesh on Jan 4, 2005 9:21:28 GMT -5
Warehouses could be interesting, may I suggest that it would be more efficient if they were orbital stores. They would be smaller but wouldn't require transport to the surface of a planet, then back up to be taken in-system.
Uber-carriers would definitely take a great deal of time to unload.But this depends on the cargo. Liquids and gases, or even broken solids like grain say, could easily be pumped off a ship very quickly providing there was a similar volume for it to be removed into.
Cargos in crates, or bulk machinery could be removed by having system ships dock directly to the uber-carrier, joining to exterior cargo bays. Items could then be easily shifted to cargo bays on the system ships for transport to the surface. This just depends on the size of the cargo, and how it was stowed in the first place.
Some of the BFG transport models etc show features that could easily be taken as being removable pods, both in tank and bulk forms.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2005 9:33:55 GMT -5
Difficult to visualise for sure CELS, but very well.
Is this cargo space or total ship volume, incidentally? I would have thought the former, but worth asking.
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Post by CELS on Jan 4, 2005 9:40:23 GMT -5
Ok, NOW I have updated it to include military ships Difficult to visualise, yes. Of course I'm just measuring the size of the ship's body, so the bridge and wings are not included at this point. That will be done later when we want to make more detailed models of the ships. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out their rough size. This is total ship volume, but again I stress that this is just the 'body' of the ship. A cube. Of course, ships aren't cube-shaped, so I'm not able to give an exact calculation of the volume of an Imperial ship at this time, but I'm able to give you the ballpark of the different ship sizes. For example, I can tell you for damn sure that a battleship is well over 1 billion m 3. If you look at the updated list, you'll see that the corvette is the smallest Imperial warship capable of warp travel, but it's still 900 meters long at average. This is almost ten times as long as the average caravel (smallest non-military ship class), and it has 250 times the volume of the average caravel. How do people feel about this? Would the Imperium design warships as small as 100 meters, capable of warp travel? That's approximately the size of their bombers, by the way
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2005 9:44:34 GMT -5
In very rare instances, yes. Not likely available to anyone except Warmasters, Inquisitors, Assassins and the Fabricator General. Was it Draco or Eisenhorn who had a warp-capable personal ship?
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Post by Philip on Jan 4, 2005 10:32:57 GMT -5
WarehouseAfter thinking about the dynamics of a logistic system which incorporates ‘warehouse worlds’, there are a few areas that come to mind that I am unhappy with. - An extra load/ unload cycle, considering the problems of getting things to and from orbit, this is a very undesirable extra burden to place on the logistics chain.
- Warehouses work when they are in fixed positions; the distances between worlds throughout their obit change dramatically, and would add considerable journey time if a ship was forced to trace a ‘zig-zag’ route.
- As Kage mentioned a warehouse full of stuff, how tempting…
Half SolutionChanging the warehouses to massive space stations would reduce problems but not eliminate them. It still means the unwanted unload/ load cycle that we could do without, and we would needs lots of them to reduce the zig-zag SolutionIf my STC isn’t going to be used (or only in part) and we have to make the shifting of massive amounts of goods plausible. As Cargo ships aren’t as well documented as others in 40K, I think this gives us a bit of leeway. I like elegant systems that are simple and effective; =Warp Tugs/ System Tugs=Basically the same as a tug boat, or cab of an articulated lorry. The Tug locks onto a Cargo Container to provide a drive system. =Cargo Container=The Cargo Container is basically a massive container, with modular shipping containers. =Journey=The System-Tug attaches to the Cargo Container and drags (or is that push?) it to the edge of the solar system where it hand it off to a Warp-Tug. The Warp-Tug makes the warp jump and appears near the target system where it hand it of to that systems tug. World > System Tug > Warp Tug > Systems Tug > World =Alternatives=As alternative would be that the Cargo Container is a ship in its own right with fitted with its own Sub-Light engines of system travel and only needs a Warp-Tug for jumps. Or a mixture of both. I’d imagine Passenger ships would have their own sub-light engines. ConsequencesThere are consequences for using this type of system, the first and most prominent is: Those who control the Warp-Tugs control interstellar travel (sounds like a Navigator mantra - and a key to their power) It also means a Navigator could have his/ her own Tug, and remain completely independent of the Cargo Part of the ship. This means the Navigator has complete control of their Tug and is in essence a captain of their own ship. They could even have their own security crew (lesser navigators of the same house/ navigators in training etc.). On the plus side this does reinforce the idea that the Imperium controls the space between Solar Systems and that Solar Systems are self governing. The Solar System become a ‘sovereign state’ with the outer planet as a natural boarder with ‘pure’ Imperial law (once out of the System a person comes under pure Imperial law and is afforded no protection or rights granted by their home world). =Building=If world only have to build sub-light ships/ sub-light tugs and Cargo container they would have far fewer restrictions from the Ad-Mec. The Ad-Mec would be very happy that the warp technology is kept away from all worlds and they only have to deal with Navigators. It also makes the bond between these two much stronger, as they are co-dependent (and in some ways I’d imagine that the Ad-Mec would see the Navigators are one of their creations). =Imperium=This would give the Imperium a complete strangle hold on all interstellar travel, also if the trans-orbit loading/ unloading is run using anti/ contra grav tech on such a massive scale it is undoubtedly run by the Ad-Mec, and this means the Ad-Mec control the flow of goods to all Hive worlds. Considering hive world that require massive amounts of imports could only have come into being after rejoining the Imperium it seems reasonable that the un/ loading system where installed by the Ad-Mec as the Hiveworld developed (and such a hive would be much easier to control that my STC design).
Hope this helps ;D
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2005 10:43:45 GMT -5
The principle I was looking at would be:
1) Modular transport enters system at periphery 2) Transport makes its way to the planet it's unloading to 3) Transport docks with either system tugs enroute if available, or with an orbital station 3) System tugs carry individual containers either directly from the ship or via the station if getting them to the ship right away isn't feasible 4) Tugs carry the containers to either the surface to a depot or to another orbital station, either a processing plant or a loading terminal for further distribution
The preference is to dock the ship with tugs as it's entering the inner spheres so that it doesn't have to stop and can slingshot out to the periphery again to make the next jump. Docking with an orbital station means long periods of idling and requiring a heavy boost to get out of the system again.
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Post by Philip on Jan 4, 2005 11:23:07 GMT -5
1) Modular transport enters system at periphery Pulled by warp-tug? 2) Transport makes its way to the planet it's unloading to Has the Warp-Tug disengaged, or is the whole lot a giant warp vessel making its way to the Planet? 3) Transport docks with either system tugs enroute if available, or with an orbital station I would suggest that ‘inbound’ System-Tugs take over at the edge of the solar system; this would allow an ‘outbound’ System-Tug to hand of its cargo to the now free warp tug. This would mean that a warp capable ship is nearly always in the warp and its capabilities aren’t wasted with long inner-system sub-light travel. 3) System tugs carry individual containers either directly from the ship or via the station if getting them to the ship right away isn't feasible It would seem reasonable that the System-Tug hands off its cargo to a waiting space station so it can re-fuel and head back out. I would stress that the cargo isn’t unloaded onto the space station, just docked. 4) Tugs carry the containers to either the surface to a depot or to another orbital station, either a processing plant or a loading terminal for further distribution It seems possible that shipping containers (like the big lorry sized shipping container used in out world) could be taken down but an anti/ conta grav ship and handed off to the ground based transport system. Not so sure about piping though. The preference is to dock the ship with tugs as it's entering the inner spheres so that it doesn't have to stop and can slingshot out to the periphery again to make the next jump. Docking with an orbital station means long periods of idling and requiring a heavy boost to get out of the system again. I would imagine that the Warp-Tug wants to get out of the solar system as fast as it can, so I imagine the System-Tug would go out and meet the Warp-Tug.
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2005 11:30:17 GMT -5
Possible, but the system tugs are going to be smaller than the transport (I'm not keen on the 'warp tug' label myself) and probably not so self-sufficient. You also have the problem that if you're doing the unloading business on the edges of the system, raiders can very easily jump in and beat up on the smaller, weaker tugs.
Also, considering that you need big unloading facilities in the inner spheres for container transports anyway, you might as well go there rather than building more on the periphery.
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Post by Philip on Jan 4, 2005 11:54:45 GMT -5
Possible, but the system tugs are going to be smaller than the transport (I'm not keen on the 'warp tug' label myself) and probably not so self-sufficient. You also have the problem that if you're doing the unloading business on the edges of the system, raiders can very easily jump in and beat up on the smaller, weaker tugs. Me think you have misunderstood my vision; The Tug is like a cab of an articulated lorry, and the Cargo Container is like the trailer. When the Wap-Tug hands off the Cargo container, it disconnect the whole/ entire Cargo Container which is picked up immediately by the System-Tug. As for the vulnerability at change over: wouldn’t a Warp-Tug piloted and captained by Navigators with very close links with the Ad-Mec be the most deadly thing raiders have ever seen? Can you imagine the fire power! Also, considering that you need big unloading facilities in the inner spheres for container transports anyway, you might as well go there rather than building more on the periphery. No un/ loading facilities would be required on the periphery when using the system I am proposing (which was one of my original points I used against the idea of warehouse planets/ stations)
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2005 13:04:58 GMT -5
Well, it's a nice idea, but the ship models we have don't look like that. I don't know what else to say other than 'I don't like it'...
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Post by Philip on Jan 4, 2005 13:10:05 GMT -5
Well, it's a nice idea, but the ship models we have don't look like that. It’s a beautiful idea and one that fits in just perfectly with 40K, as for the ship models why not change them? I don't know what else to say other than 'I don't like it'... I heard that before somewhere… Kage, care to harmonise? ;D
Edit: Added Thinking about the Space Station Warehouse idea a little more and ways of overcoming the variance in distance between planets/ satellites as the orbit the sun; It seems the obvious way would be to have the periphery space station not in the plane of the Solar System, but situated above the Sun (star) in line with its axis. This would mean that the Space Station will remain a reasonably constant distance from all the Suns (Stars) satellites. All flight paths would be within a cone. I still do not think that the Space Station should be used to un/ load cargo, but even if its not a Space Station perhaps there is an automated marker for the System/ Warp Tugs to rendezvous. Perhaps just like aircraft, the automated space buoy could be considered the ‘outer marker’?
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