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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 9:43:53 GMT -5
Again, I would also argue that we all a significant expansion of the Civil Fleet just for 'interest'. I still trying to understand why you think it would be so much more interesting to have a large civil fleet (that is worth mentioning) as opposed to a smaller one?
A couple of civil ships for the major worlds seems reasonable (if part of a Navigator cartel) and a few for the elites seems reasonable too, so as a guess your figure of 30+ isn’t too far out (as long as there are no ‘millennium falcons’ ), say 20-40, but I think world builders had best come up with a really good reason in order to claim one of that number for their world.
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 12:05:04 GMT -5
I still trying to understand why you think it would be so much more interesting to have a large civil fleet (that is worth mentioning) as opposed to a smaller one? Greater flexibility and 'freedom', although that term is relative of course... it is still stringently governed, but the Merchant Fleets tend to be limited to given routes. The only 'free' ones are the Hereditary Free and the Free Charters, but I would imagine that they are the most coveted and the rarest of all the Charters. When coupled with the relative 'ease' with which a darned Lunar Class seems to have been made, it is not unreasabonable to assume that Civil ships are a tad more abundant than the 'several thousand' advocated in WD139/140. Or are we to take the cynical approach whereby only military ships are easy to build because, well, they're military ships and that is what the wargames focus on... If ships have the longevity and the reasonable 'expense' based over that longevity, there is no real reason why they cannot be greater numbers of civil ships... More so if you consider a reasoned approach to Age of Strife society and don't work on the overt slip to barbarity approach, which may not be strictly appropriate. A couple of civil ships for the major worlds seems reasonable (if part of a Navigator cartel) and a few for the elites seems reasonable too, so as a guess your figure of 30+ isn’t too far out (as long as there are no ‘millennium falcons’ ) The 30 is a factor of 100 greater than the 'fluff', and I still feel that it is horrendously small. And no ship is going to be the size of the Millennium Falcon... that is below the arbitrary 'minimum economic size' of a ship when coupled with the cost of the warp drive. say 20-40, but I think world builders had best come up with a really good reason in order to claim one of that number for their world. How about the combined fortune of a large proportion of the noble clans individually 'saved up' for quite a while and bought one themselves? Ships are expensive, yes, and require the contribution and collaboration of the adeptus mechanicus by default... But they're not that expensive, or hard to come by. Let's just face it, something which costs 0.5% of the GWP of an industrialised world isn't that bad when the mortgage is set up over a millennium. Otherwise, why the fig are Imperium ships as big as they are? That it could be 'afforded' by a feral world with a GWP in the likely low millions over just over a decade is... interesting (read: likely just another example of "Rule of Cool" unless something else was impacting). Likely costs of a Military ship run the hundreds of GWPs of hiveworlds themselves... Yet they seem fairly common, all things considered. And, indeed, their same-sized cousins of the Merchant Fleet. Ships can be built. They cost 'money'. They can be operated without Navigators, even though you gain an economic advantage to use one. As long as you are registered you're not in trouble... Else where do all these 'rogue traders' (note lower case) get all their ships from? Or are we to work on the principle that ships are rare unless you want them to be, just like armour tends to be powerful, or troops 'hard', unless the narrative requires that they be weak or useless? Perhaps CELS would like to use his shipping classifications to offer a suggested composition of the 990-odd ships of the Merchant Fleet since we have one for the Military Fleet?
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 12:52:43 GMT -5
=Warp ship cost= Warp ships undoubtedly costs a lot of money, but in the Imperium there are other considerations. Any really high tech piece of equipment is going to come under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and one thing the Adeptus Mechanicus do not like is letting technology out of their claw like grip.
The hull of the ship and conventional engines may be a reasonable amount of money, but I have a feeling that warp drives are absolutely horrendously expensive to the point of stupidity and the AM does not like giving them out unless they absolutely have to.
It would seem appropriate that the Adeptus Mechanicus lease warp drives, kinda like a credit card stays the property of the bank, so the warp drive stay the property of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Adeptus Mechanicus will enforce the ‘rules of ownership’ and any abuse on the part of the lease holder would be dealt with by the removal of the warp engine (by force if need be).
This leasing of warp drives and other technology is probably how the Adeptus Mechanicus raises much of its funds.
=Another Layer= As we saw in the ‘Mayday scenario’ a ship that breaks down without an Astropath is doomed (given certain conditions) this may be totally unacceptable to the Adeptus Mechanicus who would want to know (demand) where their beloved warp drive has gotten to.
The Adeptus Mechanicus may also be another faction insisting that all ships have Navigators and Astropaths in order to ‘guarantee’ the safety of their warp drive. The Adeptus Mechanicus probably don’t give a hoot about passenger safety; their only concern is the warp drive.
=Overall Cost= If as you say a ship costs 0.5% of the GWP, this would be the cost of everything except the warp engine. The cost of the warp engine lease would be very high and can only be justified by those who really need it and to ship enough stuff to make it worth while (hence most Imperial ships are huge).
The owner of the ship will need to then lease a warp engine from the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Adeptus Mechanicus is not going to want to hand it over unless ‘other agreements’ and ‘treaties’ with the Imperium forces them to do so (to the Adeptus Mechanicus money isn’t everything).
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 13:57:02 GMT -5
warp drive leasing is an awesome idea, but what about illicit warp drives, produced by renegades or xenos on the fringe of the Imperium?
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 14:25:06 GMT -5
warp drive leasing is an awesome idea, but what about illicit warp drives, produced by renegades or xenos on the fringe of the Imperium? To the Adeptus Mechanicus renegade STC based warp drives would be a drool inducing prize above all others, but it would also suggest a particularly powerful culture that would have no doubt been noticed by the Imperium, and hence a war would have already started (lead by a rabid charge of the Adeptus Mechanicus!). A simple rule of thumb, if some shiny and new STC design turns up within Imperial boarders the Adeptus Mechanicus will move heaven and earth to possess it, and will not tolerate anyone trying to stop them. As for xenos warp drives, that’s down to the xenos. I’m sure the Adeptus Mechanicus would take an interest if recovered from battle. If an ‘Imperial ship’ was fitted with a xenos produced warp drive and that fact came to light, the authorities would claim it and probably have everyone onboard executed or handed over to the Adeptus Mechanicus for interrogation. As a side note: I think warp drive are incredibly difficult to manufacture, and require substantial resources (and ‘impossible’ materials), single worlds couldn’t even built one in isolation.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 15:26:59 GMT -5
as i noted in another thread, the BBB is quite clear that non-Imperial humans produce warp drives, so if you're a planetary governor or mercant house with lax standards about where you get your equipment, why not purchase an illlegally produced starship?
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 15:32:40 GMT -5
as i noted in another thread, the BBB is quite clear that non-Imperial humans produce warp drives, so if you're a planetary governor or mercant house with lax standards about where you get your equipment, why not purchase an illlegally produced starship? BBB? I think it would be ok if the ship with the illegal warp engine never went into Imperial space or came into contact with an Imperial warship. That’s assuming that non-Imperial humans can make warp engines.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 15:55:51 GMT -5
the Big Blue Book, the BFG rulebook.
and non-Imperial humans are all over the place; traitor forge world, those who trade with xenos. to the BBB! pg 125, the Idolator is rumored to have been designed on an excommunicated forge world. pg 126, Iconoclasts are built at virtually every shipyard ... except they don't appear on the Imperial list, so who's using them? etc.
and if a ship had an illegal warp drive, how would you know? could you not forge documents? do you think your average Naval commander give a crap about every little transport flying in and out of a system? don't they have better things to do?
it's like any other criminal enterprise, you take the risk but most of the time the cops don't bother to check. that's how you drive a stolen car or use a fake license.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 16:12:01 GMT -5
I see you point, but we are talking about the Imperium not our liberal universe I think the obvious way to tell an illegal warp drive is that the warp drive doesn’t have a Adeptus Mechanicus priest standing next to it giving it a buff (on larger ships) and on smaller ones well, I think Adeptus Mechanicus track their property, so a warp sig picked up by the Astropath network which isn’t sanctioned gets the interest of everyone. So an ‘unsanctioned’ ship may be welcome on a non-Imperium worlds, but as soon as it is picked up by the Astropaths the shit hits the fan. I imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus would be informed immediately, and as Astropaths are loyal and Psykers there message couldn’t be stopped (unless the Astropath was killed, but that’s opening another can of worms considering the numbers of them). I would say that in the space uncontrolled by the Imperium, sure, but inside Imperial controlled space things get difficult. The only upside is that a fast warp ship could outrun the Imperium, but as non Imperial ships are unlikely to have Navigators this is unlikely. I think the type of blatant criminal activity would be confined to the fringes of the Imperium. A quick nip over the boarder, do the business and leg it before the Imperial warships turn up ;D
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 16:34:43 GMT -5
three words: space is big. if you're not in an Imperial system, no one will find you, which means there's all kinds of potential for mayhem anywhere in the galaxy; it's not like every single parsec of the Segmentum Solar is patrolled, just the important bits.
you should grab the BBB if you can, it'll give you a better perpsective on the Imperial fleet. sector battlefleets range from 50 to 75 capital ships; that's for the entire sector. so let's say Anargo gets 50 systems, that means you're at less than 2 Imperial Navy cruisers per system, and by system of course, we're only talking inhabited systems, never mind the dead stars and gas clouds. nip over the border before the Navy shows up? the navy is already overextended, how they can patrol borders, they couldn't even every system if they tried.
and i'm not 100% on this, but i don't think you can track ships in the warp, just because if you could, there wouldn't be all those stories about ships lost in the warp, or perils of the warp.
and so a ship has an illegal drive. how do spot the illegal drive from outside the ship? then you get onboard, and how do you tell the techpriest from the actor dressed up as one? etc. the Navy can't police shipping lines, they can barely protect them, which means systems are left to police themselves, and if you're a shipping hub, like a hive world, pure volume makes it unfeasible.
my point: the Imperium's ability to secure it's systems is vastly over-estimated.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 17:05:45 GMT -5
three words: space is big. if you're not in an Imperial system, no one will find you, which means there's all kinds of potential for mayhem anywhere in the galaxy; it's not like every single parsec of the Segmentum Solar is patrolled, just the important bits. I did say that outside Imperial control your ideas are fine. As it is fine for worlds that a falling through the cracks of Imperial bureaucracy. you should grab the BBB if you can, it'll give you a better perpsective on the Imperial fleet. sector battlefleets range from 50 to 75 capital ships; that's for the entire sector. so let's say Anargo gets 50 systems, that means you're at less than 2 Imperial Navy cruisers per system, and by system of course, we're only talking inhabited systems, never mind the dead stars and gas clouds. nip over the border before the Navy shows up? the navy is already overextended, how they can patrol borders, they couldn't even every system if they tried. If they are not all inhabited then they aren’t going to need patrolling, which means more ships for the inhabited systems. Besides they only have to hang around inhabited worlds, after all that’s were any ship will be going. and i'm not 100% on this, but i don't think you can track ships in the warp, just because if you could, there wouldn't be all those stories about ships lost in the warp, or perils of the warp. Astropaths can feel them, Astropaths can use ‘warp space trail’ and they can certainly track them if another Astropath is onboard the ship. As for a criminal/ smuggler ship the Imperium can nab them when they drop out of the warp and turn up to an Imperial world. ‘Imperial customs’ is a bit on the harsh side. The fact that any renegade ship will be picked up as an ‘unsanctioned ship’ (no Astropath onboard) would give the Imperial time to prepare a suitable welcome. and so a ship has an illegal drive. how do spot the illegal drive from outside the ship? then you get onboard, and how do you tell the techpriest from the actor dressed up as one? etc. the Navy can't police shipping lines, they can barely protect them, which means systems are left to police themselves, and if you're a shipping hub, like a hive world, pure volume makes it unfeasible. If a tech priest steps onboard they will know if it’s an actor, and they would be one of the first to board an ‘unsanctioned’ ship. As I said before, the Imperium has control of Imperial space, but I should point out that it is really ‘system control’. If a renegade went out for a joy ride through Imperial space and didn’t stop at any Imperial worlds, they would get away with it. It they stop at an Imperial controlled world they will be pulled over (and caught), it they set up a rendezvous with a ship from an Imperial world they best be quick, but it is likely the ship returning to the Imperial world will get lifted (and the crew interrogated, and any Astropath onboard will tell everything). Worlds can be very corrupt, but the Fleet is loyal, Astropaths are loyal and Navigators are semi-loyal (if caught tells Imperium everything and claim immunity, otherwise…). my point: the Imperium's ability to secure it's systems is vastly over-estimated. The Imperium is completely underpowered to control every inch last of space, but they have more than enough firepower to control and secure Imperial worlds and systems.
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 28, 2004 19:48:27 GMT -5
Quick request for you, Pudding. I don't suppose you fancy posting the relevant text. I've been sticking with the idea that the adeptus mechanicus is the singular[/i] source of warp drives because, well, it adds a level of restriction to the 'fluff' that tends to make people happy. It's one of those things that fence-sits between an Imperium with only state-present warp-drives and one where there are far more warp drives than the information from the 'fluff' might say...
Oh yes, while the production of warp drives requires 'privileged' information restricted to the adeptus mechanicus, the repair of said drives can be done without their intervention if you know the correct places to look...
That "non-Imperium" individuals can manufacture or otherwise produce warp drives is a given. The real question is whether it is something that is going to 'crop up' with the ASP.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 29, 2004 3:18:23 GMT -5
Err sadly pudding is longer with us, there were disagreements so he decided to go his own way, . See here for details [ftp]http://kagemat.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=Meta&action=display&thread=1099402365[/ftp]
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 3, 2005 12:02:23 GMT -5
I can see traffic control authorities on advanced worlds cross-checking the record of every vessel that enters and leaves. Anything that isn't listed as being warp-fitted is in trouble if it's spotted anywhere it isn't supposed to be. You'd have to have someone inside to either forge the database or overlook what it's telling them.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 3, 2005 18:44:08 GMT -5
Right, I'm going to answer this here since while the first posts are partially related the others began to go OffT. Since this thread was opened today I thought that it would be best to use this one. With the caveat that it seems reasonable to assume that the Imperium isn't entirely about ergonomics or efficiency. Such is evident with the p**s-poor attempt at technology! Anyway, the GT:FT system that was proposed worked by doing just this. You calculated BTN between worlds and used that to calculate the sum total of financial and cargo exchange between worlds of a subsector. While technically all worlds of the Imperium are involved in bilateral trade in this model, the use of proxy worlds (i.e. subsector capitals or those on appropriate warp routes) is a reasonable way by which this can be superseeded... Perhaps. Some discussion on that is necessary, of course. Much less time than you think. That was the purpose of GT:FT. Which runs into the same problem as the use of the GT:FT model... it requies that all the worlds be completed before we address this... Hiveworlds are basically one of the more 'disbelievum' worlds in the 40k background. But, yes, they have a completely disproportionate potential effect on economy since they have the most significant population in any given area. While CELS was talking about Resources being necessary to upgrade Anargo subsector to a financial powerhouse, in number terms it just needed the odd-hiveworld. Again, see above with regards to the nature of the BTN calculation for the GT:FT rules. Furthermore, we would also requie some reasonable volume calculations for the various ship classes that CELS prepared. (This will also let us take a look at the overall cost of the ships themselves against operational lifespan, volume of goods transported, etc.) Are you talking mass or displacement tons, which as discussed previously is a far more valid way of talking about cargo capacity. (It's only when you're talking about ground-orbit activity that the mass really becomes an issue.) Actually the process is dramatically simple. It requires merely the use of GT:FT, the production of 'completed' UWP even if the SR isn't completed and then a simple bit of geometry combined with number-crunching. This would given an estimate of volume of goods shifting between the worlds of a subsector, the nature of trade routes, etc., which could then feed back into everything else. That's one of the reasons that the GT:FT system was posted. It's main problem is in the assumption of ship sizes, but that isn't too much of a problem as a first order guestimate. This was where the RPG side of things was going to be helpful, using the abstractions presented in whatever system reasonably extrapolated fuel consumption for a given star drive. Unfortunately we never quite got to discussing which was the most effective form of sublight propulsion based upon the assumed choice (fusion torch). The main problem here is that the assumptions therein no way match up with the 40k universe, which essentially requires continual thrust in the 0.001G range, which wasn't feasible the last time I looked at it. That is one of the assumptions that I was keen to work on, but requires the use of even lower thrust fusion drives in the form of optimised fusion. Hugely slow accelerations meaning that it would take donkeys years to get out of a system... Admittedly that is just one system and you can find other examples which have hugely efficient plasma thrusters (the HEPlaR of Traveller: the New Era are an example of this, IIRC). The main problem is that 40k ships tend not to be, or rather look, modular. This doesn't mean, however, that they don't have standardised 'sub-ships' - or just plain boxes - that are the equivalent of modular and which then just plug into the rest of the hull. Less efficient, yes, but again this is the 40k universe and it is as far as possible trying to find solutions within the 'fluff'.
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