|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 28, 2004 14:59:45 GMT -5
Right, this is ultimately an outgrowth of the 'argubate' on Astropaths and Navigators, but also readdresses some of the assumptions that I personally make. One of those assumptions is that the Imperium is based upon 'trade' defined by 'prestige goods' required by nobility. Indeed, for me nobility are the key to defining the links between worlds. After all, otherwise there really isn't anything else... ... Oh, there is 'religion', but apart from personal bias it is not something that I see as being a 'defining' feature. Sure, they all believe in the Emperor-as-God... kinda. Not quite the same god, but sort of the same god... Anyway, that's an aside. So, the Fleets. What numbers are we talking about? Thanks to Minister we have (assuming I checked the correct list): Military Fleet: 110. This means, according to WD139/140: Merchant Fleet: 990. And, based upon a volume calculation for the Imperium working on the old diameter of the Astronomican and using a cylinder to guestimate an average volume, there are c.10,000 sectors hanging around in that volume. Thus: Civil Fleet: 3+ per 10 sectors Yep, ships are expensive but not that expensive. Yes the Imperium needs to maintain control but still... A rough total of ('several thousand') 3,000 civil vessels in the Imperium!? I'm more than prepared to work that to around 30... 90,000 civil ships, compared to 800,000 warships and 7,200,000 merchant ships... But I would also hope that some of the more interesting features of the previous conceptions, i.e. temporary charters, etc., be kept...? Certainly makes it a bit more interesting... but maybe not. So... Military: 110 Merchant: 990 Civil: 30+? Of course, the fact that ships aren't quite that expensive and the common imagery of the game might suggest that Imperial Commanders have their own personal (small) ships, but then again that might not be consistent with the older 'fluff'... In other words, open it up for discussion. I really would, however, prefer that we didn't have 0.3 Civil ships in the Anargo sector. That would make the place a very dull area for roleplaying, even though as always wargaming would remain unaffected.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 29, 2004 16:41:45 GMT -5
I prefer to have more civil ships, personally. As you say, Kage, the 40k universe becomes very dull without them, and there is some fluff that suggests that they're not so rare. Ravenor has a 'secret' space station where free traders come for neutral ground of some kind, and I got the impression that many ships were docked there. But then again, it's been a while since I read the novel. I might be mistaken.
Anyway... as I've said before- Yes, starships are fantastically expensive in the Imperium, even the small ones. But then again, most ships in the Imperium are thousands of years old, it seems. This means that a new ship may only be built a few times every millennia! Over the years, a single ship could have switched hands dozens of times. This makes the civil starships of 40k a lot more interesting than ships in other universes, I think.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 30, 2004 18:48:57 GMT -5
Well, I shall wait to hear what other people have to say... Perhaps the smaller number might be used as a guideline as the 'uber-ships' that are comparable to the Merchant ships?
|
|
|
Post by Dazo on Oct 31, 2004 4:51:01 GMT -5
I would rather not see you cap the limit on non military ships, its not as if we are going to exeed those limits anyway, I myself have only requested to be allowed to have 3 of these uberships, and even if every world builder currently active on the site did the same we would still be well short of the numbers you are suggesting. And would 110 warships be enough to police the whole sector, seems rather a small number to me.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 31, 2004 5:50:00 GMT -5
I think the size of the Anargan battlefleet is just about right. We have to consider what little fluff there is on the size of battlefleets. Most of it is from BFG. The Gothic War shows forces of unusual size, of course. I believe that the largest fleet engagement in the Gothic War was the largest fleet engagement in the history of the Imperium. Obviously, it would look strange if the Anargo sector could amass a fleet five times bigger than the greatest fleet of the Gothic War As for limiting the numbers of civil ships. We need an estimate of civil ships, even if we aren't going to create each and every one of them. It's like when we first started designing the sector. We needed to know how many Imperial worlds there would be, even if we weren't going to create each and every one of them with tremendous detail. An estimate of the civil fleet is just as useful as the list for Battlefleet Anargo.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 7:01:07 GMT -5
As CELS suggests, the size of both the Military and Merchant Fleet are based upon canonical material (i.e. BFG and WD139/140). The size of the Civil Fleet, which I'm not overtly fond of, derives from the suggestion that over the entire Imperium (inferred from the text) there are 'several thousands' (i.e. 3,000+) of ships... this is a tedious and depressingly small number for me, but as always I thought that I would raise it for discussion. I know what I prefer and I'm going to argue for it, but if it was just about me this project woud be markedly simpler and far less stressful. Main problem as I see it is there is some difference between the 'setting' and the 'living' universe. Yes, it's rather 'cool' to have such limited civil shipping, in some regards, and make all the 'state' shipping in the form of uber-ships, and from there to make a direct analogy to, say, the relative proportion of commercial to private jets... But, of course, the figures change when you make that 'private' aerospatial vehicles of all types... Based upon 'fluff' that has the Lunar Class being constructed over a 'primitive'/feral world in 11 years (cf. BBB), I really don't think that it's going to be a problem significantly expanding the number of ships. As long as we perpetuate the 'temporary charter' idea (which needs further work) as a means of 'control', including the idea that it requires adeptus mechanicus maintenance (warp drive, etc.), and is severely restricted by shipping routes (warp routes, unless Navigator present; Navigator is expensive and 'rare' commodity), we have several levels of 'control'... As CELS says, even the smallest of ships are horrendously expensive (rough guestimate for the Soleus was $500,000,000), so it doesn't mean that you're working along the Star Wars principle of sell your personal vehicle and almost be able to afford a starship! No, sell your personal vehicle and you can afford a 0.001% downpayment on a starship, which isn't even enough to manage a deposit!
|
|
|
Post by Pudding on Oct 31, 2004 9:37:52 GMT -5
in the BBB, under the entry for the Iconoclast, it is suggested that there are non-Imperial shipyards. given that Iconoclasts are warp capable (the only BFG ships not warp capable are system ships and Orcas), there's no shortage of places to get ships if you wanted to have your own shipping fleet.
my conception of shipping through the Imperium is you needed a license to have a starship, but after that you were free to trade or travel, provided your license was up to date etc. of course, only the huge merchant houses etc can afford to own and maintain a ship, so it's not like there's room for individual entrepreneurs, but i can see each world having hundreds of warp capable cargoships at their service.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 15:53:04 GMT -5
In other words, open it up for discussion. I really would, however, prefer that we didn't have 0.3 Civil ships in the Anargo sector. That would make the place a very dull area for roleplaying, even though as always wargaming would remain unaffected. Why would having so few civil ships make it a dull place for role-playing?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 20:04:24 GMT -5
Why would having so few civil ships make it a dull place for role-playing? Freedom. And, it would seem, peoples' opinions of the 'fluff' in terms of the relative number of ships.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 20:10:51 GMT -5
Freedom! In the Imperium?
Seriously, why would having many civil ship change things, looking at possible characters for an RPG, those that need to travel would have access?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 20:25:26 GMT -5
And that's the point... only the State travels in the limited approach to the Imperium. I've always found that approach devalues what existed before. But that's kind of part of a 'total' image. You seem to have the same approach but in reverse... in essence, 'ever world is a castle'. Except when it's not. But that goes both ways.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 20:31:31 GMT -5
So an Imperial ‘public transport’ system is out of the question?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 20:39:14 GMT -5
<>
See other peoples replies, Phillip. This thread was started as a means of trying to associate your arguably 'radical' opinions on 'warp travel' to the direct application of the ASP and, therefore, the entire Imperium (in some regards). I'm trying to not have to do the whole "Thus Sayeth the Law", and thus far it would seem that the balance of opinion - limited opinion, admittedly - is against you.
(Hmmn... would I accept a contrary situation? Not sure. But then again I'm of the opinion that the image of the universe destroys the living universe... )
No, it doesn't neglect 'public transport'. Merchant Fleet is the most obvious approach to there as well you know. Whether you wish to extend that to 40k is your bag. If you want to apply a "limited Imperium" model as a personal preference then fine... The purpose of this thread is to try and give a reasonable indication where the 'fluff' fails.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 20:54:33 GMT -5
Well merchants could ship people, and they could ship them in the millions; there are enough ships to do this. I actually think it would open it up and allow more travel in the ASP, think of all those pilgrims heading to Terra or those being moved for work/ training/ IG/ Adepts Imperial ships are huge; they could collect thousands of people in one stop before moving on to the next world (massive bus routes/ cruise ship). I’m also sure a merchant would hire cargo space on one of these massive ships so that smaller traders and entrepreneurs so they could still do business. Instead of closing it down, it would open it right up (that’s if the world is on one of the Imperium’s routes and gets a regular ‘bus’ service).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Nov 1, 2004 12:08:10 GMT -5
The cargo - and potentially passenger - carrying capacity of the Merchant Fleet has never really been questioned, although to be fair I forgot just how many ships there were. I would also suggest that it would be a horrendous mistake to use superficial imagery and go with the premise that all the Merchant ships are 'uber-ships', at least at this point. (I suggested otherwise elsewhere, but again I forgot about the numbers involved.) Again, I would also argue that we all a significant expansion of the Civil Fleet just for 'interest'.
|
|